The NationStates Feminist Thread III

[Cekoviu]

Toxic masculinity is literally oppression. Ask any feminist. It'd be a lot easier for me to take anti-feminists seriously if they wouldn't fundamentally misunderstand the opponents' arguments.

How many times have you heard toxic femininity in a sentence?

I can count them on one hand.

Given how many times I've seen this "double standard" mentioned by MRAs and heard it actually referenced by feminists, it's in the dozens at this point. About equal with 'toxic masculinity', perhaps a bit less.

[Galloism]

How many times have you heard toxic femininity in a sentence?

I can count them on one hand.

Given how many times I've seen this "double standard" mentioned by MRAs and heard it actually referenced by feminists, it's in the dozens at this point.

Toxic masculinity was chosen for oppression of men BECAUSE it throws the blame back at the feet of men, claiming that it's enforced on men by men, which is why it's "toxic masculinity", and it's up to men to fix it.

In point of fact, the evidence suggests it's majority imposed by women, which makes it less "toxic masculinity" and more "misandry".

[West Leas Oros]

My problem lies with, when it happens to men, it’s “toxic masculinity”, when it happens to women, it’s oppression. It reeks of hypocrisy.

Toxic masculinity is literally oppression. Ask any feminist. It'd be a lot easier for me to take anti-feminists seriously if they wouldn't fundamentally misunderstand the opponents' arguments.

Toxic masculinity is an excuse to blame men’s problems on men. It supports the notion that men are the source of all problems, even their own. It’s like saying that everything wrong with black people is because of other black people, that the problems blacks face is because of “toxic blackness”. Does that sound racist? Look in the mirror.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Whatever your thoughts on sexism's morality, history proves that in a conflict between cultures, the most patriarchal one always triumphed in the long run. As such, it is difficult not to see patriarchy as a fundamental source of strength.

That's really really dumb.

[Ostroeuropa]

How many times have you heard toxic femininity in a sentence?

I can count them on one hand.

Given how many times I've seen this "double standard" mentioned by MRAs and heard it actually referenced by feminists, it's in the dozens at this point. About equal with 'toxic masculinity', perhaps a bit less.

Can you find any articles written about it?

And yes, it is a double standard. Feminists called it "Internalized Misogyny" and then called it "Toxic masculinity" in men.

The real problem with the term toxic masculinity is their total inconsistency with terms like it. When a woman holds sexist views that fuck her and other people over, it's internalized misogyny. (Something done to her. She is a victim of it.)

When a man holds sexist views that fuck him and other people over, it's toxic masculinity. (Something he does to other people. He is toxic, or his masculinity is.)

The use of the terms "Toxic" and "Internalized" serves as part of a general miasma of misandry and hatred that the feminist movement oozes through its general existence, holding men and women to different standards of agency for their culpability in sexism, the use of gendered terms, one hostile and judgemental, such as toxic, one sympathetic and highlighting victimhood, such as internalized.

Another example of this general miasma of hatred is the term Patriarchy. Essentially all feminist discourse and terminology is absolutely littered with these problems, and sometimes warps their minds and outlooks into being awful people through steady indoctrination into the idea that women have problems, and men are a problem. It's also self-perpetuating in general, and people who have become infected with this type of worldview will start coining terms like it. "Manspreading." is another example.

It's why there's always immediate skepticism when someone says they are a different kind of feminist. Merely by using the discourse and terminology, you are a part of the problem. It is a rancid and cancerous doctrine. You get the sense like someone just came up to you and said they don't have the bad kind of leprosy.

It's a matter of time, and perhaps you are just a typhoid mary. (Though, leprosy is not as contagious as people may think. I'm using this for analogy.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhoid_Mary

(Notice how this kind of "Disease" terminology, rhetoric, and symbolism makes you feel contempt, disgust, or hatred for feminists. This is akin to how they talk about men constantly. This is their frame of reference)

Even the term feminism is a part of this general miasma of contempt for men that pollutes your movement. All feminists should be forced to take a class in rhetoric, then they might realize why their movement is so fucked frankly, and why the "But that's not what patriarchy meaaanss" is completely missing the point. Feminist discourse breeds misandry and hatred. This is why there are so many crazy feminists. You guys who think you are different? You're typhoid mary. Do you get it yet? The MRM would probably argue that this is why "good feminists" will ALWAYS be a minority in "Their own movement." Because only a small amount of the population is going to be resistant to constant dehumanizing rhetoric. Attempts to convince more people to be like your kind of feminism are absolutely fucking doomed, you're just spreading the disease. For every typhoid mary, you'll get thousands of cases of typhoid.)

It would be like if I kept naming my arguments and concepts things like;
"Feminist Inferiority"

[Cekoviu]

Toxic masculinity is literally oppression. Ask any feminist. It'd be a lot easier for me to take anti-feminists seriously if they wouldn't fundamentally misunderstand the opponents' arguments.

Toxic masculinity is an excuse to blame men’s problems on men. It supports the notion that men are the source of all problems, even their own. It’s like saying that everything wrong with black people is because of other black people, that the problems blacks face is because of “toxic blackness”. Does that sound racist? Look in the mirror.

If black people were indoctrinated into acting a certain way lest they be accused of "not being black," that would be an apt comparison (and the term itself wouldn't be racist), but they aren't.

[West Leas Oros]

Toxic masculinity is an excuse to blame men’s problems on men. It supports the notion that men are the source of all problems, even their own. It’s like saying that everything wrong with black people is because of other black people, that the problems blacks face is because of “toxic blackness”. Does that sound racist? Look in the mirror.

If black people were indoctrinated into acting a certain way lest they be accused of "not being black," that would be an apt comparison (and the term itself wouldn't be racist), but they aren't.

But saying that men need to change because society makes men indoctrinated, blames the victim (men) rather than the cause (society). Men’s problems are their own fault. That is what It boils down to. That is exactly like saying that “black peoples problems are their own fault, and it’s up to them to change their ways”.

[Cekoviu]

If black people were indoctrinated into acting a certain way lest they be accused of "not being black," that would be an apt comparison (and the term itself wouldn't be racist), but they aren't.

But saying that men need to change because society makes men indoctrinated, blames the victim (men) rather than the cause (society). Men’s problems are their own fault. That is what It boils down to. That is exactly like saying that “black peoples problems are their own fault, and it’s up to them to change their ways”.

Except that is not at all what toxic masculinity implies. Some feminists may say that's the case, but I have never seen one do so, and I've spent a good deal of time around feminists.
Repeat:

It'd be a lot easier for me to take anti-feminists seriously if they wouldn't fundamentally misunderstand the opponents' arguments.

[West Leas Oros]

But saying that men need to change because society makes men indoctrinated, blames the victim (men) rather than the cause (society). Men’s problems are their own fault. That is what It boils down to. That is exactly like saying that “black peoples problems are their own fault, and it’s up to them to change their ways”.

Except that is not at all what toxic masculinity implies. Some feminists may say that's the case, but I have never seen one do so, and I've spent a good deal of time around feminists.
Repeat:

It'd be a lot easier for me to take anti-feminists seriously if they wouldn't fundamentally misunderstand the opponents' arguments.

But it does, it puts the pressure on men to change, rather than society to change.

[Ostroeuropa]

But saying that men need to change because society makes men indoctrinated, blames the victim (men) rather than the cause (society). Men’s problems are their own fault. That is what It boils down to. That is exactly like saying that “black peoples problems are their own fault, and it’s up to them to change their ways”.

Except that is not at all what toxic masculinity implies. Some feminists may say that's the case, but I have never seen one do so, and I've spent a good deal of time around feminists.
Repeat:

It'd be a lot easier for me to take anti-feminists seriously if they wouldn't fundamentally misunderstand the opponents' arguments.

Here we see a feminist engaging in a similar behavior to when men just up and refuse to accept catcalling happens to women. Men are here telling you are experience of feminists and the misandry we put up with because of it. You may not personally catcall, but you should probably stop telling us we're wrong and don't have these experiences and are merely misunderstanding.

This is a good example of gynocentrism in action and the failure to actually bother to empathize and try and understand mens experiences and viewpoint.

Our experience of feminism is not positive, it is routinely misandrous. Stop telling us we're wrong, it's extremely tiresome and it's basically watching someone engage in bouts of complete lack of self-awareness.

You're doing it too. Right now.

[Ostroeuropa]

Except that is not at all what toxic masculinity implies. Some feminists may say that's the case, but I have never seen one do so, and I've spent a good deal of time around feminists.
Repeat:

But it does, it puts the pressure on men to change, rather than society to change.

The problem is she doesn't routinely experience feminists doing this to her and up and assumes something akin to catcalling doesn't exist because she doesn't experience it.

She also probably overlooks the times it happens to dismiss mens issues and all that because it doesn't personally effect her.

[Galloism]

Toxic masculinity is an excuse to blame men’s problems on men. It supports the notion that men are the source of all problems, even their own. It’s like saying that everything wrong with black people is because of other black people, that the problems blacks face is because of “toxic blackness”. Does that sound racist? Look in the mirror.

If black people were indoctrinated into acting a certain way lest they be accused of "not being black," that would be an apt comparison (and the term itself wouldn't be racist), but they aren't.

Um... this actually happens.

I was a cop, and part of the area I served included a predominantly poor black neighborhood in Orlando. Kids were constantly told that if they didn't join a gang, they had abandoned their black community and were just trying to be white which white people would never see them as so it was a useless effort anyway. Trying to break that cycle was something that was very difficult to do (and I'm not even sure if I succeeded once).

[West Leas Oros]

If black people were indoctrinated into acting a certain way lest they be accused of "not being black," that would be an apt comparison (and the term itself wouldn't be racist), but they aren't.

Um... this actually happens.

I was a cop, and part of the area I served included a predominantly poor black neighborhood in Orlando. Kids were constantly told that if they didn't join a gang, they had abandoned their black community and were just trying to be white which white people would never see them as so it was a useless effort anyway. Trying to break that cycle was something that was very difficult to do (and I'm not even sure if I succeeded once).

Damn. That’s the strangest thing I’ve heard all day.

[ModernState]

Into this rarefied atmosphere I would like to drop the simple fact that men and women are biologically different and no matter the gains that feminism makes in these golden years of peace, when the hammer falls and force shites on the back of reason (as Franklin prescribes) then women will be hard press'd to fight off the dominion of men yet again. Were it different then it would have been different in the past. There is a biological reason why Judaism dumped women into the servile role of breeder and housekeeper. i don't like it, I don't celebrate it - but it is a fact.

[Cekoviu]

Except that is not at all what toxic masculinity implies. Some feminists may say that's the case, but I have never seen one do so, and I've spent a good deal of time around feminists.
Repeat:

But it does, it puts the pressure on men to change, rather than society to change.

Asking that people on an individual level work on eliminating toxic gender roles through realizing they don't have to reach those standards is exactly how one changes society rather than sitting around and bemoaning how awful the world is without doing anything. I'm not sure how you can interpret a call for people to improve themselves and try to stop the cycle of instilling bad value systems in children, friends, and even themselves as putting pressure on the group they're a part of in a discriminatory way, but it sure seems like the best way to stop toxicity.

[Cekoviu]

If black people were indoctrinated into acting a certain way lest they be accused of "not being black," that would be an apt comparison (and the term itself wouldn't be racist), but they aren't.

Um... this actually happens.

I was a cop, and part of the area I served included a predominantly poor black neighborhood in Orlando. Kids were constantly told that if they didn't join a gang, they had abandoned their black community and were just trying to be white which white people would never see them as so it was a useless effort anyway. Trying to break that cycle was something that was very difficult to do (and I'm not even sure if I succeeded once).

Ah. I stand corrected. In this case, telling them to avoid those toxic roles would certainly not be racist.

[Cekoviu]

Into this rarefied atmosphere I would like to drop the simple fact that men and women are biologically different and no matter the gains that feminism makes in these golden years of peace, when the hammer falls and force shites on the back of reason (as Franklin prescribes) then women will be hard press'd to fight off the dominion of men yet again. Were it different then it would have been different in the past. There is a biological reason why Judaism dumped women into the servile role of breeder and housekeeper. i don't like it, I don't celebrate it - but it is a fact.

How do the biological differences between men and women indicate that women should be required to be housekeepers?

[Ostroeuropa]

But it does, it puts the pressure on men to change, rather than society to change.

Asking that people on an individual level work on eliminating toxic gender roles through realizing they don't have to reach those standards is exactly how one changes society rather than sitting around and bemoaning how awful the world is without doing anything. I'm not sure how you can interpret a call for people to improve themselves and try to stop the cycle of instilling bad value systems in children, friends, and even themselves as putting pressure on the group they're a part of in a discriminatory way, but it sure seems like the best way to stop toxicity.

"Black culture is at fault, not the justice system as an institution."

This is why toxic masculinity is received negatively, because feminists have used it as a scapegoat for mens issues and a way to ignore and deny institutional discrimination against men. The term has become synonymous with misandry apologism.

An example of this is the suicide rates. The feminist movement on the whole took the approach of blaming it on men not opening up because of toxic masculinity (because their framework leads them to this conclusion.) But it's actually tied into education prospects, and consequently, institutional misandry.

So long as you keep blaming toxic masculinity for it, you can ignore the institutional discrimination and just keep blaming men for attitudes they haven't held in years. (See the study on millenial men not having masculine values, but still having skyrocketting suicide rates.)

[West Leas Oros]

But it does, it puts the pressure on men to change, rather than society to change.

Asking that people on an individual level work on eliminating toxic gender roles through realizing they don't have to reach those standards is exactly how one changes society rather than sitting around and bemoaning how awful the world is without doing anything. I'm not sure how you can interpret a call for people to improve themselves and try to stop the cycle of instilling bad value systems in children, friends, and even themselves as putting pressure on the group they're a part of in a discriminatory way, but it sure seems like the best way to stop toxicity.

Point still stands. Something bad happens to men, it’s men’s fault. Something bad happens to women, still men’s fault. It forces men to be the root of all problems. Again, it’s like saying “something bad happens to black people, it’s their fault. Something bad happens to white people, still black peoples fault. Black people are the root of all evil.” If you have no problem with the first statement, but object to the second, you’re a hypocrite.

[ModernState]

Into this rarefied atmosphere I would like to drop the simple fact that men and women are biologically different and no matter the gains that feminism makes in these golden years of peace, when the hammer falls and force shites on the back of reason (as Franklin prescribes) then women will be hard press'd to fight off the dominion of men yet again. Were it different then it would have been different in the past. There is a biological reason why Judaism dumped women into the servile role of breeder and housekeeper. i don't like it, I don't celebrate it - but it is a fact.

How do the biological differences between men and women indicate that women should be required to be housekeepers?

Because it always has. It's never been different.
Reality versus utopia - reality has always triumphed.
Women have only been able to enjoy their rise to equality on the back of liberal ideas of equality.
When those structures fail, I have no doubt that society will revert to type.
i don't like it, I don't think it's fair. Life isn't fair.

[Galloism]

Um... this actually happens.

I was a cop, and part of the area I served included a predominantly poor black neighborhood in Orlando. Kids were constantly told that if they didn't join a gang, they had abandoned their black community and were just trying to be white which white people would never see them as so it was a useless effort anyway. Trying to break that cycle was something that was very difficult to do (and I'm not even sure if I succeeded once).

Ah. I stand corrected. In this case, telling them to avoid those toxic roles would certainly not be racist.

You know, if I had ever used the phrase "toxic blackness" once, I probably would commit ritual suicide for how stupid I would have to be to insult the person I'm trying to encourage to break the cycle.

[Cekoviu]

How do the biological differences between men and women indicate that women should be required to be housekeepers?

Because it always has. It's never been different.
Reality versus utopia - reality has always triumphed.
Women have only been able to enjoy their rise to equality on the back of liberal ideas of equality.
When those structures fail, I have no doubt that society will revert to type.
i don't like it, I don't think it's fair. Life isn't fair.

Nice dodge.

Ah. I stand corrected. In this case, telling them to avoid those toxic roles would certainly not be racist.

You know, if I had ever used the phrase "toxic blackness" once, I probably would commit ritual suicide for how stupid I would have to be to insult the person I'm trying to encourage to break the cycle.

That is a MUCH more apt criticism than "it's misandrist." I actually agree on that, at least using the specific term. Seems a little too aggressive.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

My problem lies with, when it happens to men, it’s “toxic masculinity”, when it happens to women, it’s oppression. It reeks of hypocrisy.

Toxic masculinity is literally oppression. Ask any feminist. It'd be a lot easier for me to take anti-feminists seriously if they wouldn't fundamentally misunderstand the opponents' arguments.

Anyone who uses the term, "toxic masculinity" does not deserve to be understood.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

How do the biological differences between men and women indicate that women should be required to be housekeepers?

Because it always has. It's never been different.
Reality versus utopia - reality has always triumphed.
Women have only been able to enjoy their rise to equality on the back of liberal ideas of equality.
When those structures fail, I have no doubt that society will revert to type.
i don't like it, I don't think it's fair. Life isn't fair.

These liberal ideas of equality aren't going away any time soon, at least I hope.

[Cekoviu]

Toxic masculinity is literally oppression. Ask any feminist. It'd be a lot easier for me to take anti-feminists seriously if they wouldn't fundamentally misunderstand the opponents' arguments.

Anyone who uses the term, "toxic masculinity" does not deserve to be understood.

Anyone who doesn't use commas properly does not deserve to be understood either.