"Stigma" blamed for pregnant women not admitting drug use

[CoraSpia]

We should never, under any circumstances, encourage abortion.
My mother drank heavily while pregnant, I was born disabled. I would rather have been born disabled than not be born, thank you very much.

[Internationalist Bastard]

I had a cocain using friend growing up who said, “it’s nit even addictive and it’s the same as doing whipits”
There is something to be said about stigma towards mental illness, including addiction, but it’s not an excuse to do obviously bad things

[Internationalist Bastard]

We should never, under any circumstances, encourage abortion.
My mother drank heavily while pregnant, I was born disabled. I would rather have been born disabled than not be born, thank you very much.

See I’m in a similar boat
My mom died cuz I was complicated pregnancy. I’m pro choice but if she wasn’t Catholic I might not have been born

[CoraSpia]

We should never, under any circumstances, encourage abortion.
My mother drank heavily while pregnant, I was born disabled. I would rather have been born disabled than not be born, thank you very much.

See I’m in a similar boat
My mom died cuz I was complicated pregnancy. I’m pro choice but if she wasn’t Catholic I might not have been born

That's such a difficult decision to make on the mothers part. I think that abortion should be available in the case of mothers life being in danger, but that doctors shouldn't actively encourage either way. It should just be known that it's a possibility.

In this case though, I don't think locking up new mothers or aborting their babies is ever a bright move.

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

We should never, under any circumstances, encourage abortion.
My mother drank heavily while pregnant, I was born disabled. I would rather have been born disabled than not be born, thank you very much.

See I’m in a similar boat
My mom died cuz I was complicated pregnancy. I’m pro choice but if she wasn’t Catholic I might not have been born

Or she might've aborted at the time, but given birth later once she was actually ready for pregnancy.

Results don't make decisions immune from criticism. If they did, drunk driving not causing death would be unprosecutable.

[Neutraligon]

There are a lot of things that have the potential to harm a fetus besides drinking and drugs. For instance doing physically strenuous work can cause pre-term births https://www.webmd.com/baby/news/2000040 ... ems-work#1

Are you all against women doing this work while pregnant because it can permanently negatively effect the baby?

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

There are a lot of things that have the potential to harm a fetus besides drinking and drugs. For instance doing physically strenuous work can cause pre-term births https://www.webmd.com/baby/news/2000040 ... ems-work#1

Are you all against women doing this work while pregnant because it can permanently negatively effect the baby?

Depends upon how good a reason she has for such work. Needs to be looked at case-by-case, with prior guidelines regarding in what sort of circumstances she's justified in doing it, which she isn't, and which are a grey area. I doubt women who use drugs while pregnant are doing so for a good reason.

I think it's pretty telling of how indefensible is the "legalize behaviours that cause birth defects" crowd's position that they have to resort to deflecting criticism this way.

[Liriena]

OP is misleading. That said, it's awful that some parents feel like they've got to choose between rehabilitating or losing their children. There could and should be a humane middle ground there.

[Liriena]

Don't you know people don't have free will anymore, the only reason they ever do anything is because society makes them do it.

"Free will" is a modernist scam. We are social creatures. We are shaped to the core by our social environments.

Click my posting history for more nuclear hot takes like that one.

[Ifreann]

There are a lot of things that have the potential to harm a fetus besides drinking and drugs. For instance doing physically strenuous work can cause pre-term births https://www.webmd.com/baby/news/2000040 ... ems-work#1

Are you all against women doing this work while pregnant because it can permanently negatively effect the baby?

Depends upon how good a reason she has for such work. Needs to be looked at case-by-case, with prior guidelines regarding in what sort of circumstances she's justified in doing it, which she isn't, and which are a grey area. I doubt women who use drugs while pregnant are doing so for a good reason.

I think it's pretty telling of how indefensible is the "legalize behaviours that cause birth defects" crowd's position that they have to resort to deflecting criticism this way.

I think it's pretty telling that you're characterising people's position as "legalise behaviours that cause birth defects" when in reality those behaviours are already legal, and it is you proposing to criminalise those behaviours and enforce that by subjecting all pregnant women to unnecessary medical testing.

[Omakhandia]

Make abortion an easy, cheap, brief procedure nationwide and maybe I'll consider this.

Consider what, exactly?

Consider punishing women for doing drugs while pregnant. If someone is an addict and gets knocked up, and they don't have ready access to an abortion, they're in a serious bind in this scenario.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Don't you know people don't have free will anymore, the only reason they ever do anything is because society makes them do it.

"Free will" is a modernist scam. We are social creatures. We are shaped to the core by our social environments.

Click my posting history for more nuclear hot takes like that one.

That's exactly why everyone in society thinks the same.

[Liriena]

"Free will" is a modernist scam. We are social creatures. We are shaped to the core by our social environments.

Click my posting history for more nuclear hot takes like that one.

That's exactly why everyone in society thinks the same.

Not my argument.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

That's exactly why everyone in society thinks the same.

Not my argument.

If we're shaped merely by our social environments, then it logically follows that any individuality is the result of a differing social environment rather than genuine individuality, correct?

[Ceolophysia]

"Free will" is a modernist scam. We are social creatures. We are shaped to the core by our social environments.

Being shaped by social environments doesn't mean we can't make our own decisions. Also, what's wrong with modernism?

[Alvecia]

Not my argument.

If we're shaped merely by our social environments, then it logically follows that any individuality is the result of a differing social environment rather than genuine individuality, correct?

It's not just the broad social environment, but all of your life experiences up to this point as well.
Probably some genetic factor thrown in there for good measure, cause these things are always really messy like that.

[Esternial]

Sounds like a pretty simplistic "solution". You're just going to have a lot more pregnant women avoiding care out of fear of being screened and jailed.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

If we're shaped merely by our social environments, then it logically follows that any individuality is the result of a differing social environment rather than genuine individuality, correct?

It's not just the broad social environment, but all of your life experiences up to this point as well.
Probably some genetic factor thrown in there for good measure, cause these things are always really messy like that.

Determinism is so reductive and circular.

[Alvecia]

It's not just the broad social environment, but all of your life experiences up to this point as well.
Probably some genetic factor thrown in there for good measure, cause these things are always really messy like that.

Determinism is so reductive and circular.

Depends on the determinism I suppose.

[Ceolophysia]

Determinism is so reductive and circular.

Depends on the determinism I suppose.

Yeah, compatibilism (soft determinism), makes more sense than either hard determinism or full on free will.

[Kernen]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/tree-walsh-pregnant-women-opioids-1.4624831

Basic right and wrong tells you not to get pregnant if addicted to drugs, or not to get addicted to drugs if pregnant. But that stigma against drug use while being pregnant is now being blamed for pregnant women not admitting to using drugs instead of... I don't know, the fact that someone awful enough to do this is awful enough to lie about it.

Why not just screen fetuses and/or newborns for physical evidence of the mother's drug use, and once it can be proven, lock 'em up to send a message to any other pregnant women considering doing drugs, and/or any other drug addicts considering getting pregnant?

That will disincentivize going to doctors when you're pregnant and incentivize risky home birth. Addicts rarely plan to get pregnant. This is a really great way to hurt a lot of infants who might otherwise get help.

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

That will disincentivize going to doctors when you're pregnant and incentivize risky home birth.

Do you really think women can hide their sons and daughters from the government forever?

At most, they can pass them off as someone else's... which if DNA testing were mandatory, wouldn't even work.

[Kernen]

That will disincentivize going to doctors when you're pregnant and incentivize risky home birth.

Do you really think women can hide their sons and daughters from the government forever?

At most, they can pass them off as someone else's... which if DNA testing were mandatory, wouldn't even work.

They don't need to do it forever. They need to do it long enough to not be pregnant anymore. DNA testing of all children to check veracity of claims is unreasonably burdensome. High cost, low gain.

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

Do you really think women can hide their sons and daughters from the government forever?

At most, they can pass them off as someone else's... which if DNA testing were mandatory, wouldn't even work.

They don't need to do it forever. They need to do it long enough to not be pregnant anymore. DNA testing of all children to check veracity of claims is unreasonably burdensome. High cost, low gain.

You'll need it anyway to verify who the father is.

[Sicaris]

Doing drugs or drinking while pregnant should be illegal. You are jeopardizing a life and possibly causing unnecessary suffering simply because you want to feel good.

Anyone selling pregnant women drugs or alcohol should also be arrested. 8 months or so, combined with heavy fines, I’d say.