Gun Control III - the Gunnening

[Len Hyet]

k

"US has a higher murder rate than other countries"

Swing and a miss. We were specifically talking about mass shooting rates. This is what is commonly referred to as "shifting the goalposts" and it's bad.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

k

"US has a higher murder rate than other countries"

Swing and a miss. We were specifically talking about mass shooting rates. This is what is commonly referred to as "shifting the goalposts" and it's bad.

"Results
US homicide rates were 7.0 times higher than in other high-income countries, driven by a gun homicide rate that was 25.2 times higher. For 15- to 24-year-olds, the gun homicide rate in the United States was 49.0 times higher. Firearm-related suicide rates were 8.0 times higher in the United States, but the overall suicide rates were average. Unintentional firearm deaths were 6.2 times higher in the United States. The overall firearm death rate in the United States from all causes was 10.0 times higher. Ninety percent of women, 91% of children aged 0 to 14 years, 92% of youth aged 15 to 24 years, and 82% of all people killed by firearms were from the United States."

"Conclusions
The United States has an enormous firearm problem compared with other high-income countries, with higher rates of homicide and firearm-related suicide. Compared with 2003 estimates, the US firearm death rate remains unchanged while firearm death rates in other countries decreased. Thus, the already high relative rates of firearm homicide, firearm suicide, and unintentional firearm death in the United States compared with other high-income countries increased between 2003 and 2010."

[Len Hyet]

"US has a higher murder rate than other countries"

Swing and a miss. We were specifically talking about mass shooting rates. This is what is commonly referred to as "shifting the goalposts" and it's bad.

"Results
US homicide rates were 7.0 times higher than in other high-income countries, driven by a gun homicide rate that was 25.2 times higher. For 15- to 24-year-olds, the gun homicide rate in the United States was 49.0 times higher. Firearm-related suicide rates were 8.0 times higher in the United States, but the overall suicide rates were average. Unintentional firearm deaths were 6.2 times higher in the United States. The overall firearm death rate in the United States from all causes was 10.0 times higher. Ninety percent of women, 91% of children aged 0 to 14 years, 92% of youth aged 15 to 24 years, and 82% of all people killed by firearms were from the United States."

"Conclusions
The United States has an enormous firearm problem compared with other high-income countries, with higher rates of homicide and firearm-related suicide. Compared with 2003 estimates, the US firearm death rate remains unchanged while firearm death rates in other countries decreased. Thus, the already high relative rates of firearm homicide, firearm suicide, and unintentional firearm death in the United States compared with other high-income countries increased between 2003 and 2010."

And he doubles down on discussing overall firearm homicide rates as opposed to what we were actually talking about. It's a bold move Cotton, let's see how it works out for him.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

"Results
US homicide rates were 7.0 times higher than in other high-income countries, driven by a gun homicide rate that was 25.2 times higher. For 15- to 24-year-olds, the gun homicide rate in the United States was 49.0 times higher. Firearm-related suicide rates were 8.0 times higher in the United States, but the overall suicide rates were average. Unintentional firearm deaths were 6.2 times higher in the United States. The overall firearm death rate in the United States from all causes was 10.0 times higher. Ninety percent of women, 91% of children aged 0 to 14 years, 92% of youth aged 15 to 24 years, and 82% of all people killed by firearms were from the United States."

"Conclusions
The United States has an enormous firearm problem compared with other high-income countries, with higher rates of homicide and firearm-related suicide. Compared with 2003 estimates, the US firearm death rate remains unchanged while firearm death rates in other countries decreased. Thus, the already high relative rates of firearm homicide, firearm suicide, and unintentional firearm death in the United States compared with other high-income countries increased between 2003 and 2010."

And he doubles down on discussing overall firearm homicide rates as opposed to what we were actually talking about. It's a bold move Cotton, let's see how it works out for him.

" The overall firearm death rate in the United States from all causes was 10.0 times higher."

Overall, in all causes.

[Len Hyet]

And he doubles down on discussing overall firearm homicide rates as opposed to what we were actually talking about. It's a bold move Cotton, let's see how it works out for him.

" The overall firearm death rate in the United States from all causes was 10.0 times higher."

Overall, in all causes.

Overall meaning homicide and suicide combined. You can tell because of how they were talking about firearm homicides and firearm suicides separately before, and then combined later.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Where are you gonna get the money to pay for that?

US federal taxes.

TBH, I'd just get basic universal health care in all of the US to make all Psychiatrist visits regardless of reason free to the patient.

But that's a topic for another time.

Point is, if this law was Federal, mental health would sky rocket, happiness would improve, gun sales would stay the course, and shootings would go down.

I know this is idealist, I know it's me just being hopeful.
But, is it not worth a try?

Given the huge potential for abuse from our blue state friends I'm gonna have to say it's not, no.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

" The overall firearm death rate in the United States from all causes was 10.0 times higher."

Overall, in all causes.

Overall meaning homicide and suicide combined. You can tell because of how they were talking about firearm homicides and firearm suicides separately before, and then combined later.

And mass shootings are homicide, and in some causes, suicide.

Just beacuse there not "Mass" doesn't mean that shootings are not bad.

[Len Hyet]

Overall meaning homicide and suicide combined. You can tell because of how they were talking about firearm homicides and firearm suicides separately before, and then combined later.

And mass shootings are homicide, and in some causes, suicide.

If, in town A, 10 people choke on an Orange and 1,000 people choke on a Banana, then 1,010 people died choking on fruit. In town B, which bans Oranges, 10 people choked on an orange, and 500 people choked on a banana, then 510 people choked on fruit. But nobody in their right mind would say "look! Banning Oranges works! They only had 510 people choke on fruit!"

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

US federal taxes.

TBH, I'd just get basic universal health care in all of the US to make all Psychiatrist visits regardless of reason free to the patient.

But that's a topic for another time.

Point is, if this law was Federal, mental health would sky rocket, happiness would improve, gun sales would stay the course, and shootings would go down.

I know this is idealist, I know it's me just being hopeful.
But, is it not worth a try?

Given the huge potential for abuse from our blue state friends I'm gonna have to say it's not, no.

But the system is designed not to be abused. The doctors have no reason to falsify a diagnoses beacuse of the threat of having your medical license revoked. The money comes directly from the US government so states can't complain about being too poor to afford it. A two man system works for the most powerful bombs ever built, it can work here.

And mass shootings are homicide, and in some causes, suicide.

If, in town A, 10 people choke on an Orange and 1,000 people choke on a Banana, then 1,010 people died choking on fruit. In town B, which bans Oranges, 10 people choked on an orange, and 500 people choked on a banana, then 510 people choked on fruit. But nobody in their right mind would say "look! Banning Oranges works! They only had 510 people choke on fruit!"

Only thing is: people buy fruit to eat it, not choking on it. People buy guns to shoot things.

And you are making a strawman right now, for I am not advocating for the ban of guns.

We need a system that separates the people who want to use it for self defence/sport/hunting/ect from the people who buy it planning to shoot random people who are not threatening there lives.

[Hammer Britannia]

Only thing is: people buy fruit to eat it, not choking on it.

I would have to disagree.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

Only thing is: people buy fruit to eat it, not choking on it.

I would have to disagree.

I better be careful when buying a smoothie then.

[The Two Jerseys]

Given the huge potential for abuse from our blue state friends I'm gonna have to say it's not, no.

But the system is designed not to be abused. The doctors have no reason to falsify a diagnoses

Unless they're, you know, a raging anti-gunner...

beacuse of the threat of having your medical license revoked.

-"Mr. Smith, have you ever thought about of beating the shit out of someone because they cut you off in traffic?"
-"Yeah, doc, I've thought about it before."
-"Interesting..."
Patient suffers from violent intrusive thoughts, do not give him a gun.

Boom, doctor's ass is covered.

The money comes directly from the US government so states can't complain about being too poor to afford it.

Yes they can, because the feds will have to divert funding from somewhere else to cover it.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

But the system is designed not to be abused. The doctors have no reason to falsify a diagnoses

Unless they're, you know, a raging anti-gunner...

beacuse of the threat of having your medical license revoked.

-"Mr. Smith, have you ever thought about of beating the shit out of someone because they cut you off in traffic?"
-"Yeah, doc, I've thought about it before."
-"Interesting..."
Patient suffers from violent intrusive thoughts, do not give him a gun.

Boom, doctor's ass is covered.

The money comes directly from the US government so states can't complain about being too poor to afford it.

Yes they can, because the feds will have to divert funding from somewhere else to cover it.

That's not how a professional doctor works. You are forgetting the part where the patient explains the context to a judge and the judge allows the sale anyway. And that example isn't an intrusive thought anyway.

And? That makes the states poorer for a one time only doctors visit?

[The Two Jerseys]

Unless they're, you know, a raging anti-gunner...

-"Mr. Smith, have you ever thought about of beating the shit out of someone because they cut you off in traffic?"
-"Yeah, doc, I've thought about it before."
-"Interesting..."
Patient suffers from violent intrusive thoughts, do not give him a gun.

Boom, doctor's ass is covered.

Yes they can, because the feds will have to divert funding from somewhere else to cover it.

That's not how a professional doctor works. You are forgetting the part where the patient explains the context to a judge and the judge allows the sale anyway.

So the whole exam is nothing but a waste of time and money?

And? That makes the states poorer for a one time only doctors visit?

Yes, opening a can of worms by giving gun buyers a free exam while everyone else cries "But that's not faaaaaiiiiiiiirrrrrrrr!" will make states poorer.

[Len Hyet]

If, in town A, 10 people choke on an Orange and 1,000 people choke on a Banana, then 1,010 people died choking on fruit. In town B, which bans Oranges, 10 people choked on an orange, and 500 people choked on a banana, then 510 people choked on fruit. But nobody in their right mind would say "look! Banning Oranges works! They only had 510 people choke on fruit!"

Only thing is: people buy fruit to eat it, not choking on it. People buy guns to shoot things.

And you are making a strawman right now, for I am not advocating for the ban of guns.

We need a system that separates the people who want to use it for self defence/sport/hunting/ect from the people who buy it planning to shoot random people who are not threatening there lives.

Which is, again, not what we were discussing.

What you claimed was:

Beslan school siege, Russia <- worst school shooting ever
Dunblane, Scotland

To be fair, other countries have had school shootings...

They do but not as frequently as the US.

At the very least not in recent history.

To which I responded, with a source, saying that their frequency is in fact, almost the same.

You have yet to prove that incorrect, instead haring off into a tangent about how the US' homicide rate is higher than European nations, which - you will note - nobody was arguing about, for or against.

[Kernen]

Having people see a doctor before getting a gun is unconstitutional.

Welp, time to ban the US military and the cops for having a medical examination before issuing firearms.

Joining the military is not a constitutional right. Bearing a firearm is. They don't make you undergo a medical examination to carry the weapon, but to join. Swing and a miss!

Also, having people see a doctor violates the 14th Amendment... somehow beacuse it's discrimination...somehow.

I don't think you understand how the equal protection clause works, bud. Cordoning off a population from a constitutional right until they affirmatively prove their ability to use that right is an infringement that is unique to that class of people, and presumptively violates constitutional protections. Its the same reason why you don't see free speech limited just among Communists or Anarchists. Equal Protection clause.

It was just something funny I wanted to share with you guys.

The meme was an exaggeration.

Oh, I see. Because this is the Gun Memes thread!

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

That's not how a professional doctor works. You are forgetting the part where the patient explains the context to a judge and the judge allows the sale anyway.

So the whole exam is nothing but a waste of time and money?

And? That makes the states poorer for a one time only doctors visit?

Yes, opening a can of worms by giving gun buyers a free exam while everyone else cries "But that's not faaaaaiiiiiiiirrrrrrrr!" will make states poorer.

No. The exam is to diagnose any mental health problems the gun buyer may have and if they are buying a gun for any nefarious reason.

How is it not fair?

The exam can be done to any race, class, anyone, and it's on a case by case basis.

Everyone is judged fairly by the same rules.

Only thing is: people buy fruit to eat it, not choking on it. People buy guns to shoot things.

And you are making a strawman right now, for I am not advocating for the ban of guns.

We need a system that separates the people who want to use it for self defence/sport/hunting/ect from the people who buy it planning to shoot random people who are not threatening there lives.

Which is, again, not what we were discussing.

What you claimed was:

They do but not as frequently as the US.

At the very least not in recent history.

To which I responded, with a source, saying that their frequency is in fact, almost the same.

You have yet to prove that incorrect, instead haring off into a tangent about how the US' homicide rate is higher than European nations, which - you will note - nobody was arguing about, for or against.

As I have shown, homicide is defined as US law as Homicide is when one human being causes the death of another.

School shootings are when one human being causes the death of another.

Meaning, that school shootings are homicide. And there for a case looked at when they did there study of overall homicide.

Just beacuse a shooting isn't "School" or "Mass" doesn't mean it's not tragic.

Having people see a doctor before getting a gun is unconstitutional.

Welp, time to ban the US military and the cops for having a medical examination before issuing firearms.

Joining the military is not a constitutional right. Bearing a firearm is. They don't make you undergo a medical examination to carry the weapon, but to join. Swing and a miss!

Also, having people see a doctor violates the 14th Amendment... somehow beacuse it's discrimination...somehow.

I don't think you understand how the equal protection clause works, bud. Cordoning off a population from a constitutional right until they affirmatively prove their ability to use that right is an infringement that is unique to that class of people, and presumptively violates constitutional protections. Its the same reason why you don't see free speech limited just among Communists or Anarchists. Equal Protection clause.

It was just something funny I wanted to share with you guys.

The meme was an exaggeration.

Oh, I see. Because this is the Gun Memes thread!

Whats wrong with memes?

Ok, let's say that"People in the US who have never bought a gun" are a social class. But can you really say that they are? They are millions and millions of them. From every walk of life. It's too generic to be a class.

We are not checking if they are capable of using a gun, rather, we want to make sure there not planning on killing everyone.

[Len Hyet]

Which is, again, not what we were discussing.

What you claimed was:



To which I responded, with a source, saying that their frequency is in fact, almost the same.

You have yet to prove that incorrect, instead haring off into a tangent about how the US' homicide rate is higher than European nations, which - you will note - nobody was arguing about, for or against.

As I have shown, homicide is defined as US law as Homicide is when one human being causes the death of another.

School shootings are when one human being causes the death of another.

Meaning, that school shootings are homicide. And there for a case looked at when they did there study of overall homicide.

Just beacuse a shooting isn't "School" or "Mass" doesn't mean it's not tragic.

Which is fine, except that's not what you said initially, not what I brought up a source to argue against, and not what we were discussing.

If all you want is to talk about overall homicide rates then I'm on board with that, mass shootings are a poor way to understand gun crime, but that's not how this conversation started.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

As I have shown, homicide is defined as US law as Homicide is when one human being causes the death of another.

School shootings are when one human being causes the death of another.

Meaning, that school shootings are homicide. And there for a case looked at when they did there study of overall homicide.

Just beacuse a shooting isn't "School" or "Mass" doesn't mean it's not tragic.

Which is fine, except that's not what you said initially, not what I brought up a source to argue against, and not what we were discussing.

If all you want is to talk about overall homicide rates then I'm on board with that, mass shootings are a poor way to understand gun crime, but that's not how this conversation started.

My whole point now is that there one in the same.

School shootings contribute to overall homicide rates.

As such, the overall homicide rate shows that the US has a problem on a scale that peers do not have.

And that is partly the fault of school shootings.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Welp, time to ban the US military and the cops for having a medical examination before issuing firearms.

WTF are you talking about. Have you ever gone to MEPS?

We don't see a doctor to get issued a firearm. We see a doctor to make sure we're not missing a function vital to our war fighting skills, like sight, hearing, functioning limbs, or any other detail the recruiter "missed".

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Ok, let's say that"People in the US who have never bought a gun" are a social class. But can you really say that they are? They are millions and millions of them. From every walk of life. It's too generic to be a class.

TIL lower class is too generic a class.

We are not checking if they are capable of using a gun, rather, we want to make sure there not planning on killing everyone.

That's easy,99.99% of people aren't planning on killing everyone.

[The Two Jerseys]

So the whole exam is nothing but a waste of time and money?

Yes, opening a can of worms by giving gun buyers a free exam while everyone else cries "But that's not faaaaaiiiiiiiirrrrrrrr!" will make states poorer.

No. The exam is to diagnose any mental health problems the gun buyer may have

This may come as a surprise to you, but when the exam won't disqualify the vast majority of gun buyers from buying a gun, and they still have to go before the judge anyway, you are wasting everyone's time and money.

and if they are buying a gun for any nefarious reason.

Even if I'm buying a gun for the express purpose of shooting my pain-in-the-ass neighbor in the face, if I tell the shrink that I'm buying it for target shooting/hunting/general self-defense, he can't prove otherwise.

Not one bit.

How is it not fair?

The exam can be done to any race, class, anyone, and it's on a case by case basis.

Everyone is judged fairly by the same rules.

But you're not giving free medical care to people who aren't buying guns.

It's not faaaaaiiiiiiiiirrrrrrrrrrrr! I want my free medical exam! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!

[Gig em Aggies]

Ok, let's say that"People in the US who have never bought a gun" are a social class. But can you really say that they are? They are millions and millions of them. From every walk of life. It's too generic to be a class.

TIL lower class is too generic a class.

We are not checking if they are capable of using a gun, rather, we want to make sure there not planning on killing everyone.

That's easy,99.99% of people aren't planning on killing everyone.

Deep also forgets that it's not like people don't ever lie to their doctors I mean what a world we have become if someone were to do that.

[Licana]

Given the huge potential for abuse from our blue state friends I'm gonna have to say it's not, no.

But the system is designed not to be abused. The doctors have no reason to falsify a diagnoses beacuse of the threat of having your medical license revoked. The money comes directly from the US government so states can't complain about being too poor to afford it. A two man system works for the most powerful bombs ever built, it can work here.

They don't have to falsify anything, they just simply have to change or expand the definitions of "mental illness."

[Gig em Aggies]

But the system is designed not to be abused. The doctors have no reason to falsify a diagnoses beacuse of the threat of having your medical license revoked. The money comes directly from the US government so states can't complain about being too poor to afford it. A two man system works for the most powerful bombs ever built, it can work here.

They don't have to falsify anything, they just simply have to change or expand the definitions of "mental illness."

Well if we're gonna start labeling conservatives as having a mental illness then liberals need to be that as well you can't honest label one side having a mental illness just because they disagree with your beliefs. Saying conservatives are mentally ill is an illness in itself.