Left Wing Discussion Thread IV: Oh Hai Marx

[Torrocca]

You don't have to BE a proton to help a proton achieve its goals. Inaction helps the status quo achieve its goals by removing potential barriers toward success.

You can't help anyone or remove any barriers, you can only refrain from hindering someone and refrain from becoming or constructing barriers.

Which again is why apathy PASSIVELY supports the status quo. Without those barriers that the apathetic could make or be, they make it easier than it otherwise would be for the status quo to succeed.

Complacency's a spook. Unwavering vigilance is good.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

You can't help anyone or remove any barriers, you can only refrain from hindering someone and refrain from becoming or constructing barriers.

Which again is why apathy PASSIVELY supports the status quo. Without those barriers that the apathetic could make or be, they make it easier than it otherwise would be for the status quo to succeed.

Complacency's a spook. Unwavering vigilance is good.

That assumes that the status quo is the default position.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

So Kyle Kulinski of Secular Talk (prominent liberal talk Youtube channel) has finally made it big in media (according to the political establishment anyways), he has finally made it onto national TV- in a way he is part of the big leagues now. It is a huge milestone. This is his first and only appearance on Fox News so far as I can tell and by extension: national broadcast news media such as NBC, CBS, CNN, or HLN, etc.

Millions upon millions of people who previously didn't know of his existence, now probably do. Donald Trump, who only ever watches TV- might now have him on his radar of opponents to look out for.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXY3Q_mu2SY

Ugh, Kulinski is a conspiracy theorist idiot.

He seems fine to me. What conspiracy theories does he subscribe to?

[Torrocca]

Which again is why apathy PASSIVELY supports the status quo. Without those barriers that the apathetic could make or be, they make it easier than it otherwise would be for the status quo to succeed.

Complacency's a spook. Unwavering vigilance is good.

That assumes that the status quo is the default position.

It can easily become that if apathy and complacency runs rampant. See Nazi Germany's Holocaust for a fantastic fucking example of exactly that, and the poem, "First they came for..." that references exactly that shit you're defending.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

That assumes that the status quo is the default position.

It can easily become that if apathy and complacency runs rampant. See Nazi Germany's Holocaust for a fantastic fucking example of exactly that, and the poem, "First they came for..." that references exactly that shit you're defending.

I'm defending it? You want to put people to fucking death for it!

[Torrocca]

It can easily become that if apathy and complacency runs rampant. See Nazi Germany's Holocaust for a fantastic fucking example of exactly that, and the poem, "First they came for..." that references exactly that shit you're defending.

I'm defending it? You want to put people to fucking death for it!

Now when did I say that?

[Liriena]

Speaking of IWW, how are the Wobblies doing in the UK?

No clue mate. Mostly it's the labour party representing unionism these days.

Hail chairman Jezza

[The Multiversal Communist Collective]

Ugh, Kulinski is a conspiracy theorist idiot.

Kulinski is a progressive and a New Atheist. A conspiracy theorist? I have seen no evidence of that.

[Cekoviu]

Ugh, Kulinski is a conspiracy theorist idiot.

Kulinski is a progressive and a New Atheist. A conspiracy theorist? I have seen no evidence of that.

Hm, I think I got him mixed up with somebody else. Not a fan of his use of "SJW" or his occasional peddling of obviously false information, though.

[Questers]

Every way except genocide ends with people talking to one another and figuring things out, and I think it would be better if we skipped the military conflict middleman more often.

"Figuring things out" is an interesting way of putting it: especially because that is rarely what happens. In almost all military conflicts one side surrenders because it no longer possesses the means or will to continue fighting. If it has massive external power it can simply withdraw without conversation (like the US in Vietnam or the USSR in Afghanistan) between the parties, but if its power is only local and foreign troops occupy, or are about to occupy, its home area then what happens is surrender.

If you want to win a war you need to destroy the opponents will and means to fight until they are so depleted they have no option to surrender or come to an agreement. Now, it might be ok for you to say "yeh well those evil methods don't make the outcome worth it" even if those apparently evil (this is never substantiated by you btw) methods are required to win, but this is an inherent inconsistency in libertarian thinking.

By preventing the authorities from using the required tools, you pass off the consequences of defeat on to other people. By opposing what others plan to do, which you think is not moral, you impose a danger on those people that may or may not be matched by the danger you think you are saving others from. That might be negligent, or it might be life-threatening. You become an instrument of the enemy's will. This is a very dangerous thing to come out and say to the people around you in a war-zone. It also (should) create massive cognitive dissonance in a normal person.

[Oil exporting People]

A captured Nazi puts an additional strain on resources and the war effort and slows the process of victory.

Except for the fact said PoWs no longer are actively opposing it and in many cases are used to further the effort; Britain withheld prisoners until the late 40s due to their use in the agricultural sector.

>Applying Japanese casualties to the Western European theater

You brought up the Axis minors in order to inflate the Soviet body county; one must carry this logic to its conclusion.

Yeah, it very nearly paid off sooo well that they ended up losing the entire war and by the time the German government had been reformed it was the fifth and sixth strongest power in Berlin. Such success, much wow :^)

I see the word "nearly" is lost upon you.

[Oil exporting People]

Both the USSR and Nazi Germany were fundamentally un-developed enough to carry out the form of warfare in which casualties can be substituted for firepower. Both were essentially relying on shock, in contrast to the late-war western allies, for whom firepower was of greater importance. In shock-warfare you're taking heavier casualties than the enemy, so it's unsurprising that both the Axis and Soviet forces suffered very very heavily.

The actual pieces of equipment are not that important, but the manner in which they were (a) used, (b) supported, (c) built is pretty important. The Western allies were economically developed enough to be better at all those things than either the Germans or the Soviets.

Nazi Germany had 96% of United States industrial capacity in terms of machine tools, and said stockpile was more modern; Coal production was roughly 3/4s of the American total, and Steel output tended to average about 50% IIRC. The central issue of WWII from an industrial perspective was the fact that there was 80 Million Germans in a comparatively resource deficient continent as compared to 120 Million Americans in a resource rich environment with easy access to more; a shortage of labor combined with a lack of sufficient coal resources to exploit was the reason for the lack of enhanced German production.

[Oil exporting People]

Both the USSR and Nazi Germany were fundamentally un-developed enough to carry out the form of warfare in which casualties can be substituted for firepower. Both were essentially relying on shock, in contrast to the late-war western allies, for whom firepower was of greater importance. In shock-warfare you're taking heavier casualties than the enemy, so it's unsurprising that both the Axis and Soviet forces suffered very very heavily.

The actual pieces of equipment are not that important, but the manner in which they were (a) used, (b) supported, (c) built is pretty important. The Western allies were economically developed enough to be better at all those things than either the Germans or the Soviets.

Nazi Germany had 96% of United States industrial capacity in terms of machine tools, and said stockpile was more modern; Coal production was roughly 3/4s of the American total, and Steel output tended to average about 50% IIRC. The central issue of WWII from an industrial perspective was the fact that there was 80 Million Germans in a comparatively resource deficient continent as compared to 120 Million Americans in a resource rich environment with easy access to more; a shortage of labor combined with a lack of sufficient coal resources to exploit was the reason for the lack of enhanced German production.

[Torrocca]

A captured Nazi puts an additional strain on resources and the war effort and slows the process of victory.

Except for the fact said PoWs no longer are actively opposing it and in many cases are used to further the effort; Britain withheld prisoners until the late 40s due to their use in the agricultural sector.

Still gotta expend resources feeding, sheltering, guarding, etc. them

>Applying Japanese casualties to the Western European theater

You brought up the Axis minors in order to inflate the Soviet body county; one must carry this logic to its conclusion.

Almost like it was because those were forces the USSR fought on the eastern front.

Yeah, it very nearly paid off sooo well that they ended up losing the entire war and by the time the German government had been reformed it was the fifth and sixth strongest power in Berlin. Such success, much wow :^)

I see the word "nearly" is lost upon you.

Not at all, unlike how the irony of the verbose wanking you're doing in regard to the Nazi war machine's supposed chance at success is lost on you, when the truth of the matter is that they never had a chance whatsoever. :^)))

[Liriena]

New Shaun vid. It's kind of a Charlottesville documentary.

[Oil exporting People]

Still gotta expend resources feeding, sheltering, guarding, etc. them

Which is still less costly than fighting them; there is a reason even the Soviets and Wehrmacht took prisoners.

Almost like it was because those were forces the USSR fought on the eastern front.

The Western Allies didn't fight the Italians, nor the Japanese in their respective fronts of the war?

Not at all, unlike how the irony of the verbose wanking you're doing in regard to the Nazi war machine's supposed chance at success is lost on you, when the truth of the matter is that they never had a chance whatsoever. :^)))

Except for the fact such is not the case, as any review of manpower totals and the material situations reveal. By late 1942, the Soviets had effectively tapped out their manpower and were on the verge of starvation from then on until 1944; back in 1941, pretty much everyone foresaw that the loss of Moscow and Leningrad would've meant the end, as industrial losses were already too great to continue the war without said cities, nevermind the manpower issue and transportation difficulties. The British, meanwhile, had tapped out their manpower by 1943 and the Americans had likewise. Essentially, the Germans had come within an hair of directly knocking out the Soviets and fighting the Western powers to a draw.

[Ostroeuropa]

New Shaun vid. It's kind of a Charlottesville documentary.

This is genuinely interesting when it's covering the police fuck ups

[Liriena]

New Shaun vid. It's kind of a Charlottesville documentary.

This is genuinely interesting when it's covering the police fuck ups

Skull Daddy's hard data analysis is always good. :3

[Democratic Communist Federation]

To prevent another world war and/or another systematic genocide? Yes.

Fascists can't be bombed out of existence. They need to be emancipated, through revolution, just like everyone else.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Hm, I think I got him mixed up with somebody else. Not a fan of his use of "SJW" or his occasional peddling of obviously false information, though.

Yes, I think he is confusing Kulinski with Jimmy Dore.

[Ostroeuropa]

This is genuinely interesting when it's covering the police fuck ups

Skull Daddy's hard data analysis is always good. :3

The media narrative blaming the protestors appears to have been based in ideology and narrative rather than facts then.
The focus of the reporting should have been the incompetence of the police.

Does it trouble you that the media treats things outside its overton window this way?

The protest turned violent because it was a botched police job. Many protests would have been violent if not for the actions of the police, but are portrayed as orderly as though it was the behavior of the protestors causing that.

And yet, the media blamed the charlottesville protestors and presented them as abnormally violent for protestors, when the truth is, they weren't being handled in the way other protests often are.
Fuck up policing a G8 protest and watch buildings burn down and such.

[Liriena]

Skull Daddy's hard data analysis is always good. :3

The media narrative blaming the protestors appears to have been based in ideology and narrative rather than facts then.
The focus of the reporting should have been the incompetence of the police.

Does it trouble you that the media treats things outside its overton window this way?

The protest turned violent because it was a botched police job. Many protests would have been violent if not for the actions of the police, but are portrayed as orderly as though it was the behavior of the protestors causing that.

And yet, the media blamed the charlottesville protestors and presented them as abnormally violent for protestors, when the truth is, they weren't being handled in the way other protests often are.
Fuck up policing a G8 protest and watch buildings burn down and such.

Yeah. The Unite The Right douchebags were still a bunch of extremist douchebags, but not enough attention was given to how poorly law enforcement handled the whole thing... which, now that I think about it, is kind of regular thing in media coverage of all manner of protests in the US, no?

[Ostroeuropa]

The media narrative blaming the protestors appears to have been based in ideology and narrative rather than facts then.
The focus of the reporting should have been the incompetence of the police.

Does it trouble you that the media treats things outside its overton window this way?

The protest turned violent because it was a botched police job. Many protests would have been violent if not for the actions of the police, but are portrayed as orderly as though it was the behavior of the protestors causing that.

And yet, the media blamed the charlottesville protestors and presented them as abnormally violent for protestors, when the truth is, they weren't being handled in the way other protests often are.
Fuck up policing a G8 protest and watch buildings burn down and such.

Yeah. The Unite The Right douchebags were still a bunch of extremist douchebags, but not enough attention was given to how poorly law enforcement handled the whole thing... which, now that I think about it, is kind of regular thing in media coverage of all manner of protests in the US, no?

Daily reminder MRM protests and events have no recorded incidents of violence or lawbreaking from the MRM side, despite their inclination to walk among the counter-protestors (or those protesting the MRM event) with cameras and film them. (Smashed cameras, pulled fire alarms, and at least one assault from the other side, though.)

Poor law enforcement handling would distract from the social progressive media narrative so it won't be done. The solution isn't to fix institutions, it's to blame individuals for wrongthink and engage in witch hunts.

[Liriena]

Yeah. The Unite The Right douchebags were still a bunch of extremist douchebags, but not enough attention was given to how poorly law enforcement handled the whole thing... which, now that I think about it, is kind of regular thing in media coverage of all manner of protests in the US, no?

Daily reminder MRM protests and events have no recorded incidents of violence or lawbreaking from the MRM side, despite their inclination to walk among the counter-protestors (or those protesting the MRM event) with cameras and film them. (Smashed cameras, pulled fire alarms, and at least one assault from the other side, though.)

Poor law enforcement handling would distract from the social progressive media narrative so it won't be done. The solution isn't to fix institutions, it's to blame individuals for wrongthink and engage in witch hunts.

You've got a point... but, y'know, in the particular case of the "Unite The Right" people, I'd like a synthetic approach of fixing institutions and ruining said people's public reputation. 'cause, y'know, unironic nazis and all.

[Liriena]

The more I see of Baked Alaska, the more schadenfreude I get from him mazing himself. What a worthless douche.