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Left Wing Discussion Thread IV: Oh Hai Marx

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Was Trotsky Polyamorous?

Yes
141
58%
Yes
103
42%
 
Total votes : 244

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Liriena
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Posts: 60878
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
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Postby Liriena » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:38 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Liriena wrote:Torture, murder and other such horrors. I've never read any of his work, but if summaries (and that Pasolini film adaptation) are anything to go by, "extreme" doesn't even begin to describe how much awfulness he managed to cram into his work.


I've read a bit of it, flipping the book open to a random chapter and giving it a go yields some pretty interesting stories.

One interviewing a madam type and her story about organizing a kidnapping of a child to force them into sex slavery for a rich client who didn't want anyone else, alongside the hired hand and his recounting of how the kidnapping went, accounts from prostitutes describing their weirdest clients, some clergy recounting confessions with details suitable obscured, etc.

I think the preface of the book was an extract from a discussion by some folk on whether he should be executed for it, since it portrayed his countries society as full of depravity, rape, sex, sin, etc, which naturally puts you on his side a bit.

I think that one particularly ruffled feathers because he refused to say if the interviews were real.

Some of them were odd, like one prostitute recounting a local noble who wanted people to fart in his mouth, and the like, which seem out of place among all the rape and murder and shit. (sometimes literal), but for their time, would have been scandalous I assume, rather than merely a repulsive quirk.

For the most part though, they aren't anything special. Scandalous for their time perhaps.

I don't know. Even by today's standards, I don't think Sade's work is likely to get widespread acceptance or appreciation. We have become somewhat more accustomed to the existence of extremely violent and repulsive cultural products, I guess, but I feel like actual acceptance of stuff on that level is still very much a niche thing and the content is still largely compartmentalized into a specific genre. A Serbian Film is barely tolerated and seems to be more of a vaguely understood reference than a widely seen film.
Last edited by Liriena on Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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United Muscovite Nations
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:39 pm

I give it a 10% chance that Kim rolls a nat 20 on his charisma check, gets a critical success, and Trump embraces Juche and Songun against Western Imperialism.
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Liriena
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Posts: 60878
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Liriena » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:40 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:I give it a 10% chance that Kim rolls a nat 20 on his charisma check, gets a critical success, and Trump embraces Juche and Songun against Western Imperialism.

...oh my gawd, the easily influenced old fart getting personally exposed to Juche. That can't be good.
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
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Ostroeuropa
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Posts: 60941
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:41 pm

Liriena wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
I've read a bit of it, flipping the book open to a random chapter and giving it a go yields some pretty interesting stories.

One interviewing a madam type and her story about organizing a kidnapping of a child to force them into sex slavery for a rich client who didn't want anyone else, alongside the hired hand and his recounting of how the kidnapping went, accounts from prostitutes describing their weirdest clients, some clergy recounting confessions with details suitable obscured, etc.

I think the preface of the book was an extract from a discussion by some folk on whether he should be executed for it, since it portrayed his countries society as full of depravity, rape, sex, sin, etc, which naturally puts you on his side a bit.

I think that one particularly ruffled feathers because he refused to say if the interviews were real.

Some of them were odd, like one prostitute recounting a local noble who wanted people to fart in his mouth, and the like, which seem out of place among all the rape and murder and shit. (sometimes literal), but for their time, would have been scandalous I assume, rather than merely a repulsive quirk.

For the most part though, they aren't anything special. Scandalous for their time perhaps.

I don't know. Even by today's standards, I don't think Sade's work is likely to get widespread acceptance or appreciation. We have become somewhat more accustomed to the existence of extremely violent and repulsive cultural products, I guess, but I feel like actual acceptance of stuff on that level is still very much a niche thing and the content is still largely compartmentalized into a specific genre. A Serbian Film is barely tolerated and seems to be more of a vaguely understood reference than a widely seen film.


It's a bit tame for modern audiences. Perhaps adapted into film it would turn stomachs, but as literature, it was a beast of its time and doesn't hold up that well imo, the descriptions aren't extreme enough compared to some things out there. It's interesting if you go into it thinking you're reading interviews with historical prostitutes about the nature of their profession, and that's about it.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Liriena
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Founded: Nov 19, 2010
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Postby Liriena » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:43 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Liriena wrote:I don't know. Even by today's standards, I don't think Sade's work is likely to get widespread acceptance or appreciation. We have become somewhat more accustomed to the existence of extremely violent and repulsive cultural products, I guess, but I feel like actual acceptance of stuff on that level is still very much a niche thing and the content is still largely compartmentalized into a specific genre. A Serbian Film is barely tolerated and seems to be more of a vaguely understood reference than a widely seen film.


It's a bit tame for modern audiences. Perhaps adapted into film it would turn stomachs, but as literature, it was a beast of its time and doesn't hold up that well imo, the descriptions aren't extreme enough compared to some things out there. It's interesting if you go into it thinking you're reading interviews with historical prostitutes about the nature of their profession, and that's about it.

Understood.
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


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Liriena
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Posts: 60878
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Liriena » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:46 pm

Speaking of old books that were kind of controversial at the time, I finally started reading The Picture of Dorian Gray. That boy is 100% adorable twink at the start and I desperately need an AU version in which he chooses Basil's side instead and lives gaily ever after.
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
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gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

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Ostroeuropa
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Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:47 pm

Liriena wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
It's a bit tame for modern audiences. Perhaps adapted into film it would turn stomachs, but as literature, it was a beast of its time and doesn't hold up that well imo, the descriptions aren't extreme enough compared to some things out there. It's interesting if you go into it thinking you're reading interviews with historical prostitutes about the nature of their profession, and that's about it.

Understood.


For the record, I had no idea what it was, I was given the book by my girlfriend at the time, who likewise insisted after I read out a few to her, that she had no idea what it was when she gave it to me. Morbid curiosity and such held for a bit, and then historical curiosity, and then I put it down. I'm not sure where it is now, perhaps stolen, which would be quite funny for the thief.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Liriena
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Founded: Nov 19, 2010
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Postby Liriena » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:49 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Liriena wrote:Understood.


For the record, I had no idea what it was, I was given the book by my girlfriend at the time, who likewise insisted after I read out a few to her, that she had no idea what it was when she gave it to me. Morbid curiosity and such held for a bit, and then historical curiosity, and then I put it down. I'm not sure where it is now, perhaps stolen, which would be quite funny for the thief.

Lol
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


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Ictus
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ictus » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:08 pm

Liriena wrote:Speaking of old books that were kind of controversial at the time, I finally started reading The Picture of Dorian Gray. That boy is 100% adorable twink at the start and I desperately need an AU version in which he chooses Basil's side instead and lives gaily ever after.


YES. :clap:

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The Grene Knyght
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Grene Knyght » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:21 pm

Liriena wrote:Speaking of old books that were kind of controversial at the time, I finally started reading The Picture of Dorian Gray. That boy is 100% adorable twink at the start and I desperately need an AU version in which he chooses Basil's side instead and lives gaily ever after.

The last time I read that I was sitting in the basement of Oscar Wilde's old house :o
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Liriena
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Founded: Nov 19, 2010
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Postby Liriena » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:25 pm

The Grene Knyght wrote:
Liriena wrote:Speaking of old books that were kind of controversial at the time, I finally started reading The Picture of Dorian Gray. That boy is 100% adorable twink at the start and I desperately need an AU version in which he chooses Basil's side instead and lives gaily ever after.

The last time I read that I was sitting in the basement of Oscar Wilde's old house :o

...that's hawt. :o
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
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Grenartia
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Grenartia » Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:00 am

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Italios wrote:Semi-serious poll suggestion.

"What leftist concept do you want to learn more about"

[] Dialectical materialism
[] Alienation
[] etc"

Could be a way to start some discussion in the thread.

Anyone who doesn't say DiaMat is a bourgeois pseudo-lefist.


Sounds like dogma to me.
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The Xenopolis Confederation
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Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:00 am

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Italios wrote:Semi-serious poll suggestion.

"What leftist concept do you want to learn more about"

[] Dialectical materialism
[] Alienation
[] etc"

Could be a way to start some discussion in the thread.

Anyone who doesn't say DiaMat is a bourgeois pseudo-lefist.

Yeah, but can you positivistically prove DiaMat tbh.
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Democratic Communist Federation
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Postby Democratic Communist Federation » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:28 am

The idea of proving diamet is imposing a positivist (naturalistic) philosophy of science on scientific socialism. Marx and Engels were not positivists. They were, as in the acronym itself, materialists. The proof, if you want to use that term, is in praxis or theoretical practice. Dialectical materialism is speculative philosophy (metaphysics), in the best definition of that term.

The dialectic cannot be directly (empirically) observed, much the same as with gravity or the strings of string theory, superstring theory, and m-theory. For instance, no one has ever seen gravity. We observe the events generated by gravity, i.e., objects falling at a rate of approximately 32 feet per second². Similarly, we can study dialectical materialism by applying it to real-world events.
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Jackania yugo
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Postby Jackania yugo » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:39 am

Liriena...are those skeptics you recommending left wing and do they only dismantle right wing youtubers. Do they target any left wing/SJW ones?
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We are technically centrist.

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Cekoviu
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Postby Cekoviu » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:59 am

Jackania yugo wrote:Liriena...are those skeptics you recommending left wing and do they only dismantle right wing youtubers. Do they target any left wing/SJW ones?

Any self-respecting skeptic will not use the label "SJW," but I'm sure they also attack crazy moonbats. I don't go on YT for skeptic content, but RationalWiki, which is left-wing, targets crazy left-wingers and myths (maybe not as much as right-wing crazies, but the latter tend to be more prolific anyway), so I don't see why another left-leaning skeptic wouldn't.
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Questers
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Postby Questers » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:06 am

Cekoviu wrote:RationalWiki


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Aellex
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Postby Aellex » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:07 am

Le Marquis was a decadent liberal who well deserved the time he spent in jails. He's one of the few of our national authors I never plan on reading.

The corner point of his philosophy that "wounding being better than being wounded" do has quite an appeal, especially in the way he presents it.
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Aellex
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Postby Aellex » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:09 am

Cekoviu wrote:
Jackania yugo wrote:Liriena...are those skeptics you recommending left wing and do they only dismantle right wing youtubers. Do they target any left wing/SJW ones?

Any self-respecting skeptic will not use the label "SJW," but I'm sure they also attack crazy moonbats. I don't go on YT for skeptic content, but RationalWiki, which is left-wing, targets crazy left-wingers and myths (maybe not as much as right-wing crazies, but the latter tend to be more prolific anyway), so I don't see why another left-leaning skeptic wouldn't.

>rational wiki
Little advice, don't go there. It's literally the left-wing, nuttier and haugtier-than-thou version of metapedia.
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RIP Balk, you were too good a shitposter for this site.

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Proctopeo
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Ex-Nation

Postby Proctopeo » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:14 am

Aellex wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:Any self-respecting skeptic will not use the label "SJW," but I'm sure they also attack crazy moonbats. I don't go on YT for skeptic content, but RationalWiki, which is left-wing, targets crazy left-wingers and myths (maybe not as much as right-wing crazies, but the latter tend to be more prolific anyway), so I don't see why another left-leaning skeptic wouldn't.

>rational wiki
Little advice, don't go there. It's literally the left-wing, nuttier and haugtier-than-thou version of metapedia.

You can draw parallels with it to many other -pedias, really, especially in terms of negative attributes.
I've compared it to Conservapedia before.
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Jackania yugo
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Postby Jackania yugo » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:15 am

Aellex wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:Any self-respecting skeptic will not use the label "SJW," but I'm sure they also attack crazy moonbats. I don't go on YT for skeptic content, but RationalWiki, which is left-wing, targets crazy left-wingers and myths (maybe not as much as right-wing crazies, but the latter tend to be more prolific anyway), so I don't see why another left-leaning skeptic wouldn't.

>rational wiki
Little advice, don't go there. It's literally the left-wing, nuttier and haugtier-than-thou version of metapedia.


I, just ignore here. If you go onto her fackbooks and look at the OOC one with her views you'll understand.
This nation a funsion between capitalism and social democracy (the only type of socialism made to actually be incorporated into capitalist governments rather than trying to destroy it).

This nation is PMT/FT. Sometimes modern tech.

We sometimes use pokemorphs and digimon in our armed forces. Sometimes

We are technically centrist.

This nation is a reunited Yugoslavia (and also sometimes controls the UK as well).

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Proctopeo
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Founded: Sep 26, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Proctopeo » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:18 am

Jackania yugo wrote:
Aellex wrote:>rational wiki
Little advice, don't go there. It's literally the left-wing, nuttier and haugtier-than-thou version of metapedia.


I, just ignore here. If you go onto her fackbooks and look at the OOC one with her views you'll understand.

I'll entertain this thought by pointing out that the "pros" (which is all I read) paint her as the left-wing equivalent of those "everything tumblr hates" types. Which, well, explains a lot, really...
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Aillyria
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Ex-Nation

R

Postby Aillyria » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:51 am

Proctopeo wrote:
Aellex wrote:>rational wiki
Little advice, don't go there. It's literally the left-wing, nuttier and haugtier-than-thou version of metapedia.

You can draw parallels with it to many other -pedias, really, especially in terms of negative attributes.
I've compared it to Conservapedia before.

Metapadia, RationalWiki, Conservapedia are all terrible. I never use them.
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Sovaal
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Ex-Nation

Postby Sovaal » Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:46 am

United Muscovite Nations wrote:I give it a 10% chance that Kim rolls a nat 20 on his charisma check, gets a critical success, and Trump embraces Juche and Songun against Western Imperialism.

How about for reformed East Asian Coprosperity Sphere?
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Mujahidah
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Ex-Nation

Postby Mujahidah » Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:48 am

Aellex wrote:Le Marquis was a decadent liberal who well deserved the time he spent in jails. He's one of the few of our national authors I never plan on reading.

The corner point of his philosophy that "wounding being better than being wounded" do has quite an appeal, especially in the way he presents it.


You mean Marquis de Sade? :shock:
Your friendly, quirky neighborhood muslim girl
The Parkus Empire wrote:To paraphrase my hero, Richard Nixon: she's pink right down to her hijab.
The Parkus Empire wrote:I misjudged you, you are much more smarter than I gave you credit for.
Northern Davincia wrote:Can we engrave this in a plaque?
The Parkus Empire wrote:I am not sure I'm entirely comfortable with a woman being this well informed, but I'll try not to judge.
The Parkus Empire wrote:Ah, m'lady, if I were a heathen I'd wed thee four times

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