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UK Politics Thread VII: Wake me DUP inside [can't wake UUP]

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Questers
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Postby Questers » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:45 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:No, it's an entirely apt comparison, especially as the studies only showed negative consequences for unwilling exposure. It's a direct parallel to calling sex evil because rape causes trauma.
No it's not, and argument by analogy is a very poor way of proving your point. The measures put in place to prevent people being shown pornography unwillingly or intentionally are the same.

Ostroeuropa wrote:Cut to the chase. Your first example was intellectually dishonest nonsense. give me your best fucking shot, and if you can't, then I think we're both fully aware you don't actually have confidence this idea makes society a better place, you're merely too stubborn to admit it publicly.
Again: I simply can't be arsed to drag through google to look for a mountain of evidence, review it so that it fits your standard, and then present and summarise it here, so that you can pick out every sentence in a giant wall of quotations. This is not how I want to spend my Sunday.

There is a broad array of evidence suggesting links between pornography accessed by children and negative social and personal otucomes. Some of the evidence is poor, of course, but some is fine. It's also possible that all this evidence is wrong, and that you are right, but as a citizen and a voter, I have to play game theory here. What's more likely, that you are right, or that the government and child agencies and child charities are all wrong? And what's the outcome if we choose the wrong group? The safe option is to assume they are right, even if the chance of them being wrong is actually 50/50.

Also I am in favour of banning pornography for children because I am also in favour of banning pornography for the adult population, entirely and totally. So you can put that up your socially-permissive 1960s pipe and smoke it, eh?
Last edited by Questers on Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Questers
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Postby Questers » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:47 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Questers wrote: Money well spent in the education budget, I see.

I agree.
It's a sad state of affairs when our education budget has produced those who believe that citing their claims is unnecisary.
Once again - a person is not obliged to provide an unlimited amount of evidence for a general claim. You may ask people for specific sources for specifically required citations, but it's bonkers to expect that people are obliged to support any general point made with an unending list of evidence to be reviewed by the second party.

Also you are not to comment on my education when you write things like "unnecisary."
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:47 am

Questers wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:No, it's an entirely apt comparison, especially as the studies only showed negative consequences for unwilling exposure. It's a direct parallel to calling sex evil because rape causes trauma.
No it's not, and argument by analogy is a very poor way of proving your point. The measures put in place to prevent people being shown pornography unwillingly or intentionally are the same.

Ostroeuropa wrote:Cut to the chase. Your first example was intellectually dishonest nonsense. give me your best fucking shot, and if you can't, then I think we're both fully aware you don't actually have confidence this idea makes society a better place, you're merely too stubborn to admit it publicly.
Again: I simply can't be arsed to drag through google to look for a mountain of evidence, review it so that it fits your standard, and then present and summarise it here, so that you can pick out every sentence in a giant wall of quotations. This is not how I want to spend my Sunday.

There is a broad array of evidence suggesting links between pornography accessed by children and negative social and personal otucomes. Some of the evidence is poor, of course, but some is fine. It's also possible that all this evidence is wrong, and that you are right, but as a citizen and a voter, I have to play game theory here. What's more likely, that you are right, or that the government and child agencies and child charities are all wrong? And what's the outcome if we choose the wrong group? The safe option is to assume they are right, even if the chance of them being wrong is actually 50/50.

Also I am in favour of banning pornography for children because I am also in favour of banning pornography for the adult population, entirely and totally. So you can put that up your socially-permissive 1960s pipe and smoke it, eh?

Then find the evidence which is fine, link it and let it be argued against.
Your continued refusal to link the evidence suggests that it is about as credible as my 3-year old cousin's evidence that santa is real.
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“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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Postby Questers » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:49 am

Why should I? If you are interested you may find it yourself. The reality is even if I do present a lot of evidence, Ostro will post a sentence by sentence analysis of it and find some, most likely irrational or unreasonable cause to discard it. It's not worth my time - it's much better to watch you squirm and fail to insult me over the matter than it is to actually do what you say (which I'm not anyway obliged to do.)
Last edited by Questers on Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:50 am

Questers wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:I agree.
It's a sad state of affairs when our education budget has produced those who believe that citing their claims is unnecisary.
Once again - a person is not obliged to provide an unlimited amount of evidence for a general claim. You may ask people for specific sources for specifically required citations, but it's bonkers to expect that people are obliged to support any general point made with an unending list of evidence to be reviewed by the second party.

Also you are not to comment on my education when you write things like "unnecisary."

If you have never seen words written down, please tell me how you believe that your spelling and grammar would be?

When I write an essay as part of my degree and I make a major argument (e.g. family courts directly disadvantage the fathers) I would have been penalised if I had not backed that up with statistics. I'm merely asking ou for credible evidence for your points.
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“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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Postby Alvecia » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:51 am

Questers wrote:Why should I? If you are interested you may find it yourself.

Because, as the saying goes, “what is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence”

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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:52 am

Questers wrote:Why should I? If you are interested you may find it yourself. The reality is even if I do present a lot of evidence, Ostro will post a sentence by sentence analysis of it and find some, most likely irrational or unreasonable cause to discard it. It's not worth my time - it's much better to watch you squirm and fail to insult me over the matter than it is to actually do what you say (which I'm not anyway obliged to do.)

You are quite clearly interested in banning pornography.
I'd really like to know why you're interested in that and what studies have been done on the subject.
Join the rejected realms and never fear rejection again
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“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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Postby Questers » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:52 am

Alvecia wrote:
Questers wrote:Why should I? If you are interested you may find it yourself.

Because, as the saying goes, “what is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence”
That's fine. I know that I am right, so it is not relevant to me whether people on the internet don't agree, unless they have some compelling argument to change my mind. In this case, Ostro hasn't presented a compelling argument to make me believe that allowing children to watch rape porn or anal fisting videos on the internet as often as they want at any age is a good thing.
Last edited by Questers on Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Questers » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:55 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Questers wrote: Once again - a person is not obliged to provide an unlimited amount of evidence for a general claim. You may ask people for specific sources for specifically required citations, but it's bonkers to expect that people are obliged to support any general point made with an unending list of evidence to be reviewed by the second party.

Also you are not to comment on my education when you write things like "unnecisary."

If you have never seen words written down, please tell me how you believe that your spelling and grammar would be?

When I write an essay as part of my degree and I make a major argument (e.g. family courts directly disadvantage the fathers) I would have been penalised if I had not backed that up with statistics. I'm merely asking ou for credible evidence for your points.
Sure, but nationstates.net is not an academic paper. It's a way of digitising conversations, which aren't the same thing as essays.

Academia requires you to cite material and specific claims. It doesn't require you to list an unending level of citations in order to support broad-stroke claims, especially if those claims are later detailed (which in academia, they should be.)
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:57 am

Questers wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:If you have never seen words written down, please tell me how you believe that your spelling and grammar would be?

When I write an essay as part of my degree and I make a major argument (e.g. family courts directly disadvantage the fathers) I would have been penalised if I had not backed that up with statistics. I'm merely asking ou for credible evidence for your points.
Sure, but nationstates.net is not an academic paper. It's a way of digitising conversations, which aren't the same thing as essays.

Academia requires you to cite material and specific claims. It doesn't require you to list an unending level of citations in order to support broad-stroke claims, especially if those claims are later detailed (which in academia, they should be.)

Law rather does like you to submit a lot of claims per source. You've got a journal which shows it's modern legal thinking for at least a sub-section of the legal community, you want a case to show how it's been applied (or how a descenting judge thinks it should be applied), and you might also want something from a legal book to explain the mechanics behind it.
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“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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Postby Questers » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:59 am

That's three sources, and they're actually for three different things. Three is not never-ending.
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:00 am

Questers wrote:That's three sources, and they're actually for three different things. Three is not never-ending.

Nor is the singular source I'm asking for.
Join the rejected realms and never fear rejection again
NSG virtual happy hour this Saturday: join us on zoom, what could possibly go wrong?
“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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Postby Souseiseki » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:30 am

Questers wrote:What's more likely, that you are right, or that the government and child agencies and child charities are all wrong?


sorry, but this one of the worst appeals to authority i've ever seen.

the government are liars that don't care about evidence. you know this. you have seen this personally on a daily basis. you have called them liars themselves. a good number of your posts here are about how they and their predecessors are ignorant buffons that have ruined this country. don't give me this pish about how the government are now knowledgeable and trustworthy.

as for child agencies and child charities? yes. they are alarmist bullshitters that play loose and fast with the evidence as well. do we need to revisit the several examples of "we don't have evidence this is bad buuuuuuuuut we want a complete and total ban forever please thanks" they've pulled out of their arse in the past decade or so?

That's fine. I know that I am right, so it is not relevant to me whether people on the internet don't agree, unless they have some compelling argument to change my mind. In this case, Ostro hasn't presented a compelling argument to make me believe that allowing children to watch rape porn or anal fisting videos on the internet as often as they want at any age is a good thing.


you've forgotten that's already a settled issue. the government and children's charities have decided that no one is allowed to watch rape fantasy porn ever based on the overwhelming evidence of "conducting research in this area is complex. We do not yet have sufficient evidence from which to draw any definite conclusions as to the likely long term impact of this kind of material on individuals generally", "we are not convinced that evidence for this is any more than anecdotal" and "we have no evidence to show that the creation of staged rape images involves any harm to the participants or causes harm to society at large". we have no choice but to bend the knee at their iron rhetoric, forged over the decades they've had to find a single piece of hard evidence that they're not blowing shit out their arse every time they open their mouths.

It wasn't a big problem when it consisted of home videos in the 1980s or something. It's a big problem when anyone can access it at any time at any place at incredible speeds.


if this is the case, why did the government and children's charities insist on keeping pornography as restricted as they could in the 80s? why did they fight to keep it illegal to import or sell any depiction of hardcore pornography to adults all the way up until 2000 while bleating about how it was necessary protect the children? why did they have a body of anti-"obscenity" laws from the 60s and earlier to help them keep pornography restricted? they seemed to think it was a pretty big problem. and lest we forget the whole video nasties thing, something they were 100% convinced was harmful and needed to be stopped. could it be that... they were full of shit?
Last edited by Souseiseki on Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Hydesland » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:33 am

How much opposition did Labour put up to this?

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Postby Souseiseki » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:35 am

Hydesland wrote:How much opposition did Labour put up to this?


zero to my knowledge
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Postby Hydesland » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:35 am

Souseiseki wrote:
Hydesland wrote:How much opposition did Labour put up to this?


zero to my knowledge


illiberalism.txt

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Postby Ostroeuropa » Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:01 pm

That feel when imaginary consequences from teh pornz gets more Labour MPs to support action than changing the laws to recognize women can commit rape.
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There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Postby Philjia » Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:43 pm

Hydesland wrote:
Souseiseki wrote:
zero to my knowledge


illiberalism.txt

Hedonism is rarely in political fashion, sadly.
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Postby Hurdergaryp » Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:45 pm

Philjia wrote:
Hydesland wrote:illiberalism.txt

Hedonism is rarely in political fashion, sadly.

Even though it would do wonders when it comes to becoming a bit more relaxed about things, which is something countless politicians most certainly need.


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Postby Ifreann » Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:55 pm

Philjia wrote:
Hydesland wrote:
illiberalism.txt

Hedonism is rarely in political fashion, sadly.

Letting people have fun will destroy Britain.
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Postby Souseiseki » Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:56 pm

Ifreann wrote:
Philjia wrote:Hedonism is rarely in political fashion, sadly.

Letting people have fun will destroy Britain.

it's not that people can't have fun

they just can't have fun that i don't personally approve of, yeah?
ask moderation about reading serious moderation candidates TGs without telling them about it until afterwards and/or apparently refusing to confirm/deny the exact timeline of TG reading ~~~ i hope you never sent any of the recent mods or the ones that got really close anything personal!

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Postby Hurdergaryp » Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:59 pm

Souseiseki wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Letting people have fun will destroy Britain.

it's not that people can't have fun

they just can't have fun that i don't personally approve of, yeah?

In that case more chastity devices are going to be needed.


“Everything under heaven is in utter chaos; the situation is excellent.”
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Postby Ifreann » Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:00 pm

Souseiseki wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Letting people have fun will destroy Britain.

it's not that people can't have fun

they just can't have fun that i don't personally approve of, yeah?

"The following porno has been approved by Her Majesty's Funquisitor. You are permitted to have fun. But not too much fun."
He/Him
We are born of the salt, we are children of the sea
We don't bend our knee to no king or country
So we hoist the Jolly Roger, the colours of the free
And if we hit the gallows that's the way that it must be

Saoirse don Phalaistín

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Hurdergaryp
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Postby Hurdergaryp » Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:13 pm

Ifreann wrote:
Souseiseki wrote:it's not that people can't have fun

they just can't have fun that i don't personally approve of, yeah?

"The following porno has been approved by Her Majesty's Funquisitor. You are permitted to have fun. But not too much fun."

British censor is best censor, because the dauntless censors in Her Majesty's service watch all the depraved smut in order to spare you the ordeal. This makes the glorious United Kingdom so much better than the depraved Continent, for the benevolent British authorities make sure the pure and innocent servants of the Monarchy do not suffer the horrors of undesirable titillation.


“Everything under heaven is in utter chaos; the situation is excellent.”
Mao Zedong

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Souseiseki
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Postby Souseiseki » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:37 pm

spain wants joint control of gibraltar airport before we can negotiate a transition deal

hmm
ask moderation about reading serious moderation candidates TGs without telling them about it until afterwards and/or apparently refusing to confirm/deny the exact timeline of TG reading ~~~ i hope you never sent any of the recent mods or the ones that got really close anything personal!

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