Right Wing Discussion Thread X: Pol's closed

[The Parkus Empire]

Aillyria is still deciding, I think. Theocracy and the Bill of Rights are not compatible

That must be difficult for you.

By your logic, Kuyper was a theocrat

[Bienenhalde]

Aillyria is still deciding, I think. Theocracy and the Bill of Rights are not compatible

Wait, you are not seriously saying that theocracy is Left wing, are you?

[Genivaria]

Since we're talking about the Nazi party coming into power I thought it would be productive to actually post what the Nazi parties stated platform was in order to gauge how much of it might've appealed to the average German.

The 25-point Program of the NSDAP

1. We demand the unification of all Germans in the Greater Germany on the basis of the right of self-determination of peoples.

2. We demand equality of rights for the German people in respect to the other nations; abrogation of the peace treaties of Versailles and St. Germain.

3. We demand land and territory (colonies) for the sustenance of our people, and colonization for our surplus population.

4. Only a member of the race can be a citizen. A member of the race can only be one who is of German blood, without consideration of creed. Consequently no Jew can be a member of the race.

5. Whoever has no citizenship is to be able to live in Germany only as a guest, and must be under the authority of legislation for foreigners.

6. The right to determine matters concerning administration and law belongs only to the citizen. Therefore we demand that every public office, of any sort whatsoever, whether in the Reich, the county or municipality, be filled only by citizens. We combat the corrupting parliamentary economy, office-holding only according to party inclinations without consideration of character or abilities.

7. We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens. If it is impossible to sustain the total population of the State, then the members of foreign nations (non-citizens) are to be expelled from the Reich.

8. Any further immigration of non-citizens is to be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans, who have immigrated to Germany since the 2 August 1914, be forced immediately to leave the Reich.

9. All citizens must have equal rights and obligations.

10. The first obligation of every citizen must be to work both spiritually and physically. The activity of individuals is not to counteract the interests of the universality, but must have its result within the framework of the whole for the benefit of all Consequently we demand:

11. Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of rent-slavery.

12. In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

13. We demand the nationalization of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).

14. We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.

15. We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.

16. We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.

17. We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.

18. We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals, usurers, Schieber and so forth are to be punished with death, without consideration of confession or race.

19. We demand substitution of a German common law in place of the Roman Law serving a materialistic world-order.

20. The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school [Staatsbuergerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.

21. The State is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.

22. We demand abolition of the mercenary troops and formation of a national army.

23. We demand legal opposition to known lies and their promulgation through the press. In order to enable the provision of a German press, we demand, that: a. All writers and employees of the newspapers appearing in the German language be members of the race: b. Non-German newspapers be required to have the express permission of the State to be published. They may not be printed in the German language: c. Non-Germans are forbidden by law any financial interest in German publications, or any influence on them, and as punishment for violations the closing of such a publication as well as the immediate expulsion from the Reich of the non-German concerned. Publications which are counter to the general good are to be forbidden. We demand legal prosecution of artistic and literary forms which exert a destructive influence on our national life, and the closure of organizations opposing the above made demands.

24. We demand freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the state so long as they do not endanger its existence or oppose the moral senses of the Germanic race. The Party as such advocates the standpoint of a positive Christianity without binding itself confessionally to any one denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and around us, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our nation can only succeed from within on the framework: common utility precedes individual utility.

25. For the execution of all of this we demand the formation of a strong central power in the Reich. Unlimited authority of the central parliament over the whole Reich and its organizations in general. The forming of state and profession chambers for the execution of the laws made by the Reich within the various states of the confederation. The leaders of the Party promise, if necessary by sacrificing their own lives, to support by the execution of the points set forth above without consideration.

I think it is reasonable to say that alot of people might agree with around half of this list and still actively condemn the actions of the party.
Many of these were very populist likely in a effort to promote an alternative to the communists which was the 3rd largest party in Germany.

[Conserative Morality]

Aillyria is still deciding, I think. Theocracy and the Bill of Rights are not compatible

>> Parkus
>> Accusing someone else of theocratic tendencies

lol

She seems a pluralist more than a theocrat.

[Genivaria]

That must be difficult for you.

By your logic, Kuyper was a theocrat

I've noticed you have a strange tendency to insert obscure references into random conversation.

[Conserative Morality]

Yeah yeah, Reichstag fire, mass political repressions and yadda, yadda, yadda. The SPD was still allowed to run, along with several other parties the Nazis vehemently despised. Was it fair? No, of course not. But neither was any other "free" election in the entire history of the Weimar Republic.

There are levels of unfairness. There is giving a head start to a competitor, there's tripping their opposition, and then there's breaking out the baseball bats and going to town on their kneecaps. Not all unfairness is equal.

[Genivaria]

Aillyria is still deciding, I think. Theocracy and the Bill of Rights are not compatible

Wait, you are not seriously saying that theocracy is Left wing, are you?

Religious movements have occasionally been very socially or economically populist which is itself usually left-wing.
Lollards, Cathars, Ikko-Ikki, Yellow Turbans.

But that doesn't mean that theocracy in general is left wing.

[Sanctissima]

Since we're talking about the Nazi party coming into power I thought it would be productive to actually post what the Nazi parties stated platform was in order to gauge how much of it might've appealed to the average German.

The 25-point Program of the NSDAP

1. We demand the unification of all Germans in the Greater Germany on the basis of the right of self-determination of peoples.

2. We demand equality of rights for the German people in respect to the other nations; abrogation of the peace treaties of Versailles and St. Germain.

3. We demand land and territory (colonies) for the sustenance of our people, and colonization for our surplus population.

4. Only a member of the race can be a citizen. A member of the race can only be one who is of German blood, without consideration of creed. Consequently no Jew can be a member of the race.

5. Whoever has no citizenship is to be able to live in Germany only as a guest, and must be under the authority of legislation for foreigners.

6. The right to determine matters concerning administration and law belongs only to the citizen. Therefore we demand that every public office, of any sort whatsoever, whether in the Reich, the county or municipality, be filled only by citizens. We combat the corrupting parliamentary economy, office-holding only according to party inclinations without consideration of character or abilities.

7. We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens. If it is impossible to sustain the total population of the State, then the members of foreign nations (non-citizens) are to be expelled from the Reich.

8. Any further immigration of non-citizens is to be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans, who have immigrated to Germany since the 2 August 1914, be forced immediately to leave the Reich.

9. All citizens must have equal rights and obligations.

10. The first obligation of every citizen must be to work both spiritually and physically. The activity of individuals is not to counteract the interests of the universality, but must have its result within the framework of the whole for the benefit of all Consequently we demand:

11. Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of rent-slavery.

12. In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

13. We demand the nationalization of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).

14. We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.

15. We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.

16. We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.

17. We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.

18. We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals, usurers, Schieber and so forth are to be punished with death, without consideration of confession or race.

19. We demand substitution of a German common law in place of the Roman Law serving a materialistic world-order.

20. The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school [Staatsbuergerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.

21. The State is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.

22. We demand abolition of the mercenary troops and formation of a national army.

23. We demand legal opposition to known lies and their promulgation through the press. In order to enable the provision of a German press, we demand, that: a. All writers and employees of the newspapers appearing in the German language be members of the race: b. Non-German newspapers be required to have the express permission of the State to be published. They may not be printed in the German language: c. Non-Germans are forbidden by law any financial interest in German publications, or any influence on them, and as punishment for violations the closing of such a publication as well as the immediate expulsion from the Reich of the non-German concerned. Publications which are counter to the general good are to be forbidden. We demand legal prosecution of artistic and literary forms which exert a destructive influence on our national life, and the closure of organizations opposing the above made demands.

24. We demand freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the state so long as they do not endanger its existence or oppose the moral senses of the Germanic race. The Party as such advocates the standpoint of a positive Christianity without binding itself confessionally to any one denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and around us, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our nation can only succeed from within on the framework: common utility precedes individual utility.

25. For the execution of all of this we demand the formation of a strong central power in the Reich. Unlimited authority of the central parliament over the whole Reich and its organizations in general. The forming of state and profession chambers for the execution of the laws made by the Reich within the various states of the confederation. The leaders of the Party promise, if necessary by sacrificing their own lives, to support by the execution of the points set forth above without consideration.

I think it is reasonable to say that alot of people might agree with around half of this list and still actively condemn the actions of the party.
Many of these were very populist likely in a effort to promote an alternative to the communists which was the 3rd largest party in Germany.

To add to this, I think it's also worth noting that a fair number of Nazis were genuine Communists in all but name, with Goebbels being a prominent example. Their only major point of contention with the SPD and other Far-Left parties was their obsession with internationalism, the Communist element of the NSDAP preferring a more nationalist focus. So-called "beefcake Nazis" played a pretty major role in internal party politics until the Night of the Long Knives, and even after the mass purging of the more radical Far-Left elements of the NSDAP, plenty of them continued to occupy high positions in the Nazi political machine. One of the main reasons why they sided with the Nazi Party, aside from ideological differences with their Socialist counterparts, was the Nazis' economic and social policies, which weren't substantially dissimilar to their own ideals.

One of the main reasons why Hitler and the Nazis were able to seize and maintain power is precisely because of their ability to achieve broad support across both society and the political spectrum.

[Aillyria]

You seem to have many right wing positions, although when you defended the radical French revolutionaries you sounded like some crazy extreme leftist.

Aillyria is still deciding, I think. Theocracy and the Bill of Rights are not compatible

Actually, they are quite compatable.

[Sanctissima]

Yeah yeah, Reichstag fire, mass political repressions and yadda, yadda, yadda. The SPD was still allowed to run, along with several other parties the Nazis vehemently despised. Was it fair? No, of course not. But neither was any other "free" election in the entire history of the Weimar Republic.

There are levels of unfairness. There is giving a head start to a competitor, there's tripping their opposition, and then there's breaking out the baseball bats and going to town on their kneecaps. Not all unfairness is equal.

You think that wasn't already going on before Hitler was handed the office of chancellor on a silver platter?

The Socialists were carrying out assassinations and, on one occasion, quite literally attempted to overthrow the government long before the NSDAP was even a relevant political party. The only substantial difference is that the Nazis were far more successful at it.

[Genivaria]

Aillyria is still deciding, I think. Theocracy and the Bill of Rights are not compatible

Actually, they are quite compatable.

Not really no.

[Aillyria]

Wait, you are not seriously saying that theocracy is Left wing, are you?

Religious movements have occasionally been very socially or economically populist which is itself usually left-wing.
Lollards, Cathars, Ikko-Ikki, Yellow Turbans.

But that doesn't mean that theocracy in general is left wing.

I'm a huge fan of the Cathars, btw. I'd probably consider myself a populist.

[Czeskia]

You think that wasn't already going on before Hitler was handed the office of chancellor on a silver platter?

The Socialists were carrying out assassinations and, on one occasion, quite literally attempted to overthrow the government long before the NSDAP was even a relevant political party. The only substantial difference is that the Nazis were far more successful at it.

This the same socialists that supported the far-right Freikorps crush the Spartacist Revolt?

[Sanctissima]

You think that wasn't already going on before Hitler was handed the office of chancellor on a silver platter?

The Socialists were carrying out assassinations and, on one occasion, quite literally attempted to overthrow the government long before the NSDAP was even a relevant political party. The only substantial difference is that the Nazis were far more successful at it.

This the same socialists that supported the far-right Freikorps crush the Spartacist Revolt?

It was... complicated.

The Sparticists (who would go on to form the KPD, or Communist Party in layman's terms) went full revolution by January of 1919. The less radical Social Democrats (although realistically, Democratic Socialists would be a more fitting categorization, but at any rate they went on to create the SPD which still exists today) opposed them, and allied temporarily with the Freikorps to restore order.

To be honest, it was pretty much part and parcel with the internal politics of Weimar Germany, particularly in the immediate post-war period. Politics makes for strange bedfellows, I suppose.

[The Parkus Empire]

Aillyria is still deciding, I think. Theocracy and the Bill of Rights are not compatible

Wait, you are not seriously saying that theocracy is Left wing, are you?

It certainly can be.

[The Parkus Empire]

Aillyria is still deciding, I think. Theocracy and the Bill of Rights are not compatible

>> Parkus
>> Accusing someone else of theocratic tendencies

lol

She seems a pluralist more than a theocrat.

It's not "accusing, " Aillyria claimed to support theocracy and used that term.

[Conserative Morality]

You think that wasn't already going on before Hitler was handed the office of chancellor on a silver platter?

You're missing the point. The point isn't "Out and out violence didn't exist in Weimar politics before the Nazis", the point is that the intensity and direction of that violence in regards to elections was uniquely ramped up by them.

The Socialists were carrying out assassinations and, on one occasion, quite literally attempted to overthrow the government long before the NSDAP was even a relevant political party. The only substantial difference is that the Nazis were far more successful at it.

We call them 'Communists', Sanct.

[The East Marches II]

You think that wasn't already going on before Hitler was handed the office of chancellor on a silver platter?

The Socialists were carrying out assassinations and, on one occasion, quite literally attempted to overthrow the government long before the NSDAP was even a relevant political party. The only substantial difference is that the Nazis were far more successful at it.

This the same socialists that supported the far-right Freikorps crush the Spartacist Revolt?

Some of them were, others were socialist. Bolshevism didn't have many friends for a reason :^)

[The Parkus Empire]

You think that wasn't already going on before Hitler was handed the office of chancellor on a silver platter?

The Socialists were carrying out assassinations and, on one occasion, quite literally attempted to overthrow the government long before the NSDAP was even a relevant political party. The only substantial difference is that the Nazis were far more successful at it.

This the same socialists that supported the far-right Freikorps crush the Spartacist Revolt?

Socialists kill each other, yes.

[Conserative Morality]

Some of them were, others were socialist. Bolshevism didn't have many friends for a reason :^)

SocDems - the hidden menace

[Genivaria]

Some of them were, others were socialist. Bolshevism didn't have many friends for a reason :^)

SocDems - the hidden menace

That deserved a chuckle.

[Conserative Morality]

That deserved a chuckle.

Those always get me, just like Bernie got Rosa

[Aillyria]

>> Parkus
>> Accusing someone else of theocratic tendencies

lol

She seems a pluralist more than a theocrat.

It's not "accusing, " Aillyria claimed to support theocracy and used that term.

Yes, I lean more towards theocracy than pluralism. Though, I see no reason a nation with a state religion can't be democratic. I believe it should be.

[Dagashi Shoujo]

It's not "accusing, " Aillyria claimed to support theocracy and used that term.

Yes, I lean more towards theocracy than pluralism. Though, I see no reason a nation with a state religion can't be democratic. I believe it should be.

So you're okay with citizens voting to abolish state religion?

[Republic of the Cristo]

Guys, it's been like a page since anyone has mentioned Rome.

Let's get back on the real topic of this thread, shall we?