Libertarian Discussion Thread

[The Eternal Aulus]

Islamic Libertarianism now

[Orostan]

>I will now insult my opponent instead of making an Argument

I'll respond anyway. When work can be made safe and pleasant, why would anyone take every day off?

I'm not insulting you. I'm "insulting" the one person working at the Communist bakery on Saturdays, because all his friends decided to take the day off without regard.

But my real point is that a system in which one can arbitrarily not participate in is a system that will fall quickly.

No, you don't understand. You haven't been reading any of the posts I've been writing. People aren't just going to stop working for no reason. Even if they do, they will eventually go back to work voluntarily once they get bored.

When work can be made pleasant and safe, people will voluntarily work.

Islamic Libertarianism now

So, ISIS?

[Sovaal]

I'm not insulting you. I'm "insulting" the one person working at the Communist bakery on Saturdays, because all his friends decided to take the day off without regard.

But my real point is that a system in which one can arbitrarily not participate in is a system that will fall quickly.

No, you don't understand. You haven't been reading any of the posts I've been writing. People aren't just going to stop working for no reason. Even if they do, they will eventually go back to work voluntarily once they get bored.

When work can be made pleasant and safe, people will voluntarily work.

Sure they will.

Islamic Libertarianism now

So, ISIS?

Hahahhahahahhaahhahahaha!

Tell me, what part of a theocratic authoritarian regime is ‘libertarian’.

[Elwher]

Needs are more than just for bare survival. If you want to read, you need a book for example. And labor vouchers do not function quite like money, as they represent a constant amount of labor which does not change. One labor voucher will always be worth a certain amount of labor, which can be exchanged for a product. There are no currency markets, currency speculators, or anything like that.

Then what happens as productivity increases via technological improvement? The value of a given unit of labor has to change under those circumstances, does it not? This means that a product which costs 5 units of labor today may only cost 4 tomorrow, opening up the market for speculators, futures exchanges, and the like.

[Telconi]

I'm not insulting you. I'm "insulting" the one person working at the Communist bakery on Saturdays, because all his friends decided to take the day off without regard.

But my real point is that a system in which one can arbitrarily not participate in is a system that will fall quickly.

No, you don't understand. You haven't been reading any of the posts I've been writing. People aren't just going to stop working for no reason. Even if they do, they will eventually go back to work voluntarily once they get bored.

When work can be made pleasant and safe, people will voluntarily work.

Islamic Libertarianism now

So, ISIS?

Literally never have I been so bored as to want to go fix asshole's services...

[Sovaal]

No, you don't understand. You haven't been reading any of the posts I've been writing. People aren't just going to stop working for no reason. Even if they do, they will eventually go back to work voluntarily once they get bored.

When work can be made pleasant and safe, people will voluntarily work.


So, ISIS?

Literally never have I been so bored as to want to go fix asshole's services...

Nah, you see it will be so perfect you’ll want to work for asshole because that’s how it works!

[Telconi]

Literally never have I been so bored as to want to go fix asshole's services...

Nah, you see it will be so perfect you’ll want to work for asshole because that’s how it works!

Of course, Karl said so...

[New Visayan Islands]

Literally never have I been so bored as to want to go fix asshole's services...

Nah, you see it will be so perfect you’ll want to work for asshole because that’s how it works!

> It just works

What is this, King Crimson?

Anyway, I'm starting to understand the "back to work once they get bored" part a little better.

[Orostan]

No, you don't understand. You haven't been reading any of the posts I've been writing. People aren't just going to stop working for no reason. Even if they do, they will eventually go back to work voluntarily once they get bored.

When work can be made pleasant and safe, people will voluntarily work.

Sure they will.

So, ISIS?

Hahahhahahahhaahhahahaha!

Tell me, what part of a theocratic authoritarian regime is ‘libertarian’.

1- Are you fucking kidding me? Do you want me to explain you that architects are architects because they want to be architects?

2- I was making a joke.

Needs are more than just for bare survival. If you want to read, you need a book for example. And labor vouchers do not function quite like money, as they represent a constant amount of labor which does not change. One labor voucher will always be worth a certain amount of labor, which can be exchanged for a product. There are no currency markets, currency speculators, or anything like that.

Then what happens as productivity increases via technological improvement? The value of a given unit of labor has to change under those circumstances, does it not? This means that a product which costs 5 units of labor today may only cost 4 tomorrow, opening up the market for speculators, futures exchanges, and the like.

1 hour of labor is always worth 1 hour of labor, but 1 hour of labor produces more on average as productivity rises. Speculation and futures exchange would be pointless, As productivity increases the value of a product would decrease, and very very seldom increase. it would be pointless.

No, you don't understand. You haven't been reading any of the posts I've been writing. People aren't just going to stop working for no reason. Even if they do, they will eventually go back to work voluntarily once they get bored.

When work can be made pleasant and safe, people will voluntarily work.


So, ISIS?

Literally never have I been so bored as to want to go fix asshole's services...

Unpleasant jobs like collecting garbage can be automated to the point where it's really just driving around a truck. If nobody wants to do the job, we can just have a lottery where X amount of people are randomly chosen each week or something to pick up trash.

Literally never have I been so bored as to want to go fix asshole's services...

Nah, you see it will be so perfect you’ll want to work for asshole because that’s how it works!

Nah, you see it will be so perfect you’ll want to work for asshole because that’s how it works!

Of course, Karl said so...

>I will continue to vigorously and arrogantly shitpost

[Northern Davincia]

Let's say every time you go to the store, someone jump out of the bushes and beat you with a stick. Does that mean going to the store is hurting you, or is that guy hurting you?

Every time a country even tries left wing social democracy, the United States comes in and destroys it. Such as in Guatemala in 1954, and in Chile in 1973, and in Brazil in 1961, and so on. You can't say that you observe "the real world consequences" of socialism when every time a country has tried to implement it it gets invaded or has a western backed coup. Even if we look at the USSR, we see a state that started way behind the United States nearly match it. Sure, it had problems. But it was doing well for the conditions that were forced upon it.

Social democracy was not attempted in Chile, as Allende was far more keen on establishing actual socialism.
As for other countries, the Soviet Union did start behind the US, but collapsed anyway. China and Vietnam and eastern Europe turned away from socialism because they had no real way of achieiving it.

[New Visayan Islands]

China and Vietnam and eastern Europe turned away from socialism because they had no real way of achieiving [sic] it.

By that, we mean...?

[Northern Davincia]

China and Vietnam and eastern Europe turned away from socialism because they had no real way of achieiving [sic] it.

By that, we mean...?

Dictatorships do not lead to socialism, and for as long as those countries remained dictatorships, socialism was impossible. It still is for a plethora of other reasons, however.

[Telconi]

Sure they will.


Hahahhahahahhaahhahahaha!

Tell me, what part of a theocratic authoritarian regime is ‘libertarian’.

1- Are you fucking kidding me? Do you want me to explain you that architects are architects because they want to be architects?

2- I was making a joke.

Then what happens as productivity increases via technological improvement? The value of a given unit of labor has to change under those circumstances, does it not? This means that a product which costs 5 units of labor today may only cost 4 tomorrow, opening up the market for speculators, futures exchanges, and the like.

1 hour of labor is always worth 1 hour of labor, but 1 hour of labor produces more on average as productivity rises. Speculation and futures exchange would be pointless, As productivity increases the value of a product would decrease, and very very seldom increase. it would be pointless.

Literally never have I been so bored as to want to go fix asshole's services...

Unpleasant jobs like collecting garbage can be automated to the point where it's really just driving around a truck. If nobody wants to do the job, we can just have a lottery where X amount of people are randomly chosen each week or something to pick up trash.

Nah, you see it will be so perfect you’ll want to work for asshole because that’s how it works!

Of course, Karl said so...

>I will continue to vigorously and arrogantly shitpost

So we've fixed garbage collection with imaginary robots... cool. So what about my job? We'really going to make actual Artificial Intelligence to do it? Or shall we just pick names from a hat?

Also, I'll continue to vigorously and arrogantly 'shitpost' for as long a's you vigorously and arrogantly defend your nonsense about people working for no reason.

[Elwher]

Then what happens as productivity increases via technological improvement? The value of a given unit of labor has to change under those circumstances, does it not? This means that a product which costs 5 units of labor today may only cost 4 tomorrow, opening up the market for speculators, futures exchanges, and the like.

1 hour of labor is always worth 1 hour of labor, but 1 hour of labor produces more on average as productivity rises. Speculation and futures exchange would be pointless, As productivity increases the value of a product would decrease, and very very seldom increase. it would be pointless.

No, because the raison d'etre of a futures market is betting on how much and how soon the value of something will change. I would offer to buy your product for 4 units next week, for example, if I believed that the value would remain the same while you would accept the offer if you thought the value would drop to 3. Thus, we open speculation into the system.

[Orostan]

Let's say every time you go to the store, someone jump out of the bushes and beat you with a stick. Does that mean going to the store is hurting you, or is that guy hurting you?

Every time a country even tries left wing social democracy, the United States comes in and destroys it. Such as in Guatemala in 1954, and in Chile in 1973, and in Brazil in 1961, and so on. You can't say that you observe "the real world consequences" of socialism when every time a country has tried to implement it it gets invaded or has a western backed coup. Even if we look at the USSR, we see a state that started way behind the United States nearly match it. Sure, it had problems. But it was doing well for the conditions that were forced upon it.

Social democracy was not attempted in Chile, as Allende was far more keen on establishing actual socialism.
As for other countries, the Soviet Union did start behind the US, but collapsed anyway. China and Vietnam and eastern Europe turned away from socialism because they had no real way of achieiving it.

"every country that even tries"

I was referencing the fact that anything left of nordic social democracy gets destroyed by America or somebody else. The USSR collapsed because of Gorby's market reforms that let enterprises do whatever they wanted with most of their stock. China and Vietnam switched to a market economy because the party elite that Marxist-Leninist systems develop could get richer that way.

[Northern Davincia]

Social democracy was not attempted in Chile, as Allende was far more keen on establishing actual socialism.
As for other countries, the Soviet Union did start behind the US, but collapsed anyway. China and Vietnam and eastern Europe turned away from socialism because they had no real way of achieiving it.

"every country that even tries"

I was referencing the fact that anything left of nordic social democracy gets destroyed by America or somebody else. The USSR collapsed because of Gorby's market reforms that let enterprises do whatever they wanted with most of their stock. China and Vietnam switched to a market economy because the party elite that Marxist-Leninist systems develop could get richer that way.

Coincidentally, the wealth of China and Vietnam altogether increased as well, not just for the rich. The Soviets imploded because of high military spending, not market reforms.

[Orostan]

1- Are you fucking kidding me? Do you want me to explain you that architects are architects because they want to be architects?

2- I was making a joke.


1 hour of labor is always worth 1 hour of labor, but 1 hour of labor produces more on average as productivity rises. Speculation and futures exchange would be pointless, As productivity increases the value of a product would decrease, and very very seldom increase. it would be pointless.



Unpleasant jobs like collecting garbage can be automated to the point where it's really just driving around a truck. If nobody wants to do the job, we can just have a lottery where X amount of people are randomly chosen each week or something to pick up trash.



>I will continue to vigorously and arrogantly shitpost

So we've fixed garbage collection with imaginary robots... cool. So what about my job? We'really going to make actual Artificial Intelligence to do it? Or shall we just pick names from a hat?

Also, I'll continue to vigorously and arrogantly 'shitpost' for as long a's you vigorously and arrogantly defend your nonsense about people working for no reason.

You clearly aren't reading my posts. I said that garbage collection can mostly be automated and that if nobody will voluntarily work there we can just draw people randomly because it's a job that requires driving around a truck and picking stuff up.

Motivation is more than monetary as well. People go into, for example, engineering because they want to not because the wages were higher. If people only went for monetary incentives We'd see swarms of hedge fund managers and business students and no teachers or anything.

1 hour of labor is always worth 1 hour of labor, but 1 hour of labor produces more on average as productivity rises. Speculation and futures exchange would be pointless, As productivity increases the value of a product would decrease, and very very seldom increase. it would be pointless.

No, because the raison d'etre of a futures market is betting on how much and how soon the value of something will change. I would offer to buy your product for 4 units next week, for example, if I believed that the value would remain the same while you would accept the offer if you thought the value would drop to 3. Thus, we open speculation into the system.

That's not how it works. The good in question was produced because someone could use it. Let's say it's a car. That car was made specifically because someone needed it to drive around to do stuff. If you went to the Socialist car dealership and asked for a futures contract they would not let you buy one. What would be the point of selling someone a car if they would not use it?

[Telconi]

So we've fixed garbage collection with imaginary robots... cool. So what about my job? We'really going to make actual Artificial Intelligence to do it? Or shall we just pick names from a hat?

Also, I'll continue to vigorously and arrogantly 'shitpost' for as long a's you vigorously and arrogantly defend your nonsense about people working for no reason.

You clearly aren't reading my posts. I said that garbage collection can mostly be automated and that if nobody will voluntarily work there we can just draw people randomly because it's a job that requires driving around a truck and picking stuff up.

Motivation is more than monetary as well. People go into, for example, engineering because they want to not because the wages were higher. If people only went for monetary incentives We'd see swarms of hedge fund managers and business students and no teachers or anything.

No, because the raison d'etre of a futures market is betting on how much and how soon the value of something will change. I would offer to buy your product for 4 units next week, for example, if I believed that the value would remain the same while you would accept the offer if you thought the value would drop to 3. Thus, we open speculation into the system.

That's not how it works. The good in question was produced because someone could use it. Let's say it's a car. That car was made specifically because someone needed it to drive around to do stuff. If you went to the Socialist car dealership and asked for a futures contract they would not let you buy one. What would be the point of selling someone a car if they would not use it?

Okay, I already conceded the garbage collector point, care to address the actual example I've offered?

Also, you can prove that no engineer ever went into engineering because it pays well. Or any other profession, everyone just follows their dreams and ignores financial compensation?

[Orostan]

"every country that even tries"

I was referencing the fact that anything left of nordic social democracy gets destroyed by America or somebody else. The USSR collapsed because of Gorby's market reforms that let enterprises do whatever they wanted with most of their stock. China and Vietnam switched to a market economy because the party elite that Marxist-Leninist systems develop could get richer that way.

Coincidentally, the wealth of China and Vietnam altogether increased as well, not just for the rich. The Soviets imploded because of high military spending, not market reforms.

The Soviet Union broke up because the party elite decided that they'd be better off as rich oligarchs, and Gorby's market reforms destroyed the economy meaning that they could blame communism for it even though it was a move towards Capitalism.

China and Vietnam are known for their state owned enterprises. The reason why workers are getting paid more in China is because of pay rises in state owned industry, same in Vietnam.

[Orostan]

You clearly aren't reading my posts. I said that garbage collection can mostly be automated and that if nobody will voluntarily work there we can just draw people randomly because it's a job that requires driving around a truck and picking stuff up.

Motivation is more than monetary as well. People go into, for example, engineering because they want to not because the wages were higher. If people only went for monetary incentives We'd see swarms of hedge fund managers and business students and no teachers or anything.


That's not how it works. The good in question was produced because someone could use it. Let's say it's a car. That car was made specifically because someone needed it to drive around to do stuff. If you went to the Socialist car dealership and asked for a futures contract they would not let you buy one. What would be the point of selling someone a car if they would not use it?

Okay, I already conceded the garbage collector point, care to address the actual example I've offered?

Also, you can prove that no engineer ever went into engineering because it pays well. Or any other profession, everyone just follows their dreams and ignores financial compensation?

People go into jobs for money sometimes. Those that do cannot be happy doing something they have no interest in. I never said that people never go into jobs for the money.

[Northern Davincia]

Coincidentally, the wealth of China and Vietnam altogether increased as well, not just for the rich. The Soviets imploded because of high military spending, not market reforms.

The Soviet Union broke up because the party elite decided that they'd be better off as rich oligarchs, and Gorby's market reforms destroyed the economy meaning that they could blame communism for it even though it was a move towards Capitalism.

China and Vietnam are known for their state owned enterprises. The reason why workers are getting paid more in China is because of pay rises in state owned industry, same in Vietnam.

Where is the proof that China and Vietnam have higher pay because of state industry? Again, military spending was what ultimately broke the Russian camel's back.

[Telconi]

Okay, I already conceded the garbage collector point, care to address the actual example I've offered?

Also, you can prove that no engineer ever went into engineering because it pays well. Or any other profession, everyone just follows their dreams and ignores financial compensation?

People go into jobs for money sometimes. Those that do cannot be happy doing something they have no interest in. I never said that people never go into jobs for the money.

Got a source on that? What do you do for a living? Did money play a role in the decision?

[Orostan]

People go into jobs for money sometimes. Those that do cannot be happy doing something they have no interest in. I never said that people never go into jobs for the money.

Got a source on that? What do you do for a living? Did money play a role in the decision?

I already linked an article showing people produce more when they're happier, and low job satisfaction means less productivity.

Also, I am currently a student.

[Telconi]

Got a source on that? What do you do for a living? Did money play a role in the decision?

I already linked an article showing people produce more when they're happier, and low job satisfaction means less productivity.

Also, I am currently a student.

Okay, low job satisfaction and work outside of one's passions aren't one and the same.

What did you do for a living before you became a student?

[Sovaal]

Sure they will.


Hahahhahahahhaahhahahaha!

Tell me, what part of a theocratic authoritarian regime is ‘libertarian’.

1- Are you fucking kidding me? Do you want me to explain you that architects are architects because they want to be architects?

2- I was making a joke.

1: The vas majority of the work force aren’t architects however. Few people are passionate about being a fry cook or factory worker or ring in customer services.

2: Try adding an /s next time.