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[DRAFT] Access to Higher Education

Where WA members debate how to improve the world, one resolution at a time.

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United Massachusetts
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Founded: Jan 17, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby United Massachusetts » Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:01 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:
United Massachusetts wrote:Is my preserving my own wetlands of importance to you?

OOC: Yes. Environmental concerns are inherently trans-boundary because ecological communities don't perceive political boundaries.

Just as global communities, particularly considering immigration in the modern world, have an interest in ensuring equal access to education. Also, I would argue that higher education is a right, but I digress.
Separatist Peoples wrote:
There is also a trans-boundary issue. There is a significant gap in accessibility to education abroad, meaning that immigrants from SP to UM who might not have the same access to education are put at a disadvantage, one which is a drain on my economy.

OOC: So don't permit Separatist immigrants free access to your educational facilities. I promise you, ICly, that will not bother the CDSP.

These immigrants, having not been educated, are now less likely to obtain jobs and more likely to be in poverty, posing an obligation on us to provide them healthcare and a decent living.

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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:05 pm

United Massachusetts wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:OOC: Yes. Environmental concerns are inherently trans-boundary because ecological communities don't perceive political boundaries.

Just as global communities, particularly considering immigration in the modern world, have an interest in ensuring equal access to education. Also, I would argue that higher education is a right, but I digress.

OOC: Global communities do perceive and respect political boundaries, and that is the entire point of the international issue argument.

These immigrants, having not been educated, are now less likely to obtain jobs and more likely to be in poverty, posing an obligation on us to provide them healthcare and a decent living.


OOC: That's their problem if they can't get jobs, and your prerogative to prevent their access to your support systems. That's a domestic policy you choose to pursue, which affects the C.D.S.P. not at all.

His Worshipfulness, the Most Unscrupulous, Plainly Deceitful, Dissembling, Strategicly Calculating Lord GA Secretariat, Authority on All Existence, Arbiter of Right, Toxic Globalist Dog, Dark Psychic Vampire, and Chief Populist Elitist!
Separatist Peoples should RESIGN!

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United Massachusetts
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Postby United Massachusetts » Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:10 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:
United Massachusetts wrote:These immigrants, having not been educated, are now less likely to obtain jobs and more likely to be in poverty, posing an obligation on us to provide them healthcare and a decent living.


OOC: That's their problem if they can't get jobs, and your prerogative to prevent their access to your support systems. That's a domestic policy you choose to pursue, which affects the C.D.S.P. not at all.
Thing is, I have to give them healthcare, per GAR #97.

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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:15 pm

United Massachusetts wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:
OOC: That's their problem if they can't get jobs, and your prerogative to prevent their access to your support systems. That's a domestic policy you choose to pursue, which affects the C.D.S.P. not at all.
Thing is, I have to give them healthcare, per GAR #97.

OOC: Only some, and only if they can't afford it. And nothing says you can't boot them out for potential inability to pay. The C.D.S.P. does so all the time.

His Worshipfulness, the Most Unscrupulous, Plainly Deceitful, Dissembling, Strategicly Calculating Lord GA Secretariat, Authority on All Existence, Arbiter of Right, Toxic Globalist Dog, Dark Psychic Vampire, and Chief Populist Elitist!
Separatist Peoples should RESIGN!

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United Massachusetts
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Postby United Massachusetts » Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:18 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:
United Massachusetts wrote:Thing is, I have to give them healthcare, per GAR #97.

OOC: Only some, and only if they can't afford it. And nothing says you can't boot them out for potential inability to pay. The C.D.S.P. does so all the time.

OOC: Still, that compels us to take an action contrary to our national values because of your actions. Hence, international issue. Plus, a resolution need not be internationally applicable to be legal.
IC: "Whether the C.D.S.P likes it or not, we're going to proceed with the resolution."

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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:20 pm

United Massachusetts wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:OOC: Only some, and only if they can't afford it. And nothing says you can't boot them out for potential inability to pay. The C.D.S.P. does so all the time.

OOC: Still, that compels us to take an action contrary to our national values because of your actions. Hence, international issue. Plus, a resolution need not be internationally applicable to be legal.
IC: "Whether the C.D.S.P likes it or not, we're going to proceed with the resolution."

OOC: Excellent. Ive been looking forward to drafting a WALL IFV.
IC "Excellent. I've been looking to have a back-room deal with ol' Parsons."

His Worshipfulness, the Most Unscrupulous, Plainly Deceitful, Dissembling, Strategicly Calculating Lord GA Secretariat, Authority on All Existence, Arbiter of Right, Toxic Globalist Dog, Dark Psychic Vampire, and Chief Populist Elitist!
Separatist Peoples should RESIGN!

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United Massachusetts
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Postby United Massachusetts » Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:22 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:
United Massachusetts wrote:OOC: Still, that compels us to take an action contrary to our national values because of your actions. Hence, international issue. Plus, a resolution need not be internationally applicable to be legal.
IC: "Whether the C.D.S.P likes it or not, we're going to proceed with the resolution."

OOC: Excellent. Ive been looking forward to drafting a WALL IFV.
IC "Excellent. I've been looking to have a back-room deal with ol' Parsons."

OOC: What is an IFV? (Information for Voters?)
IC: Mumbles 'bout everyone's opposition to him...
Last edited by United Massachusetts on Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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United Massachusetts
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Postby United Massachusetts » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:53 pm

bumper-oo

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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:12 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:"Excellent. I've been looking to have a back-room deal with ol' Parsons."

Elsie mutters, 'He doesn't go here anymore'.

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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:04 pm

Imperium Anglorum wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:"Excellent. I've been looking to have a back-room deal with ol' Parsons."

Elsie mutters, 'He doesn't go here anymore'.

"Shh! I know that, you know that, but he didn't!"

His Worshipfulness, the Most Unscrupulous, Plainly Deceitful, Dissembling, Strategicly Calculating Lord GA Secretariat, Authority on All Existence, Arbiter of Right, Toxic Globalist Dog, Dark Psychic Vampire, and Chief Populist Elitist!
Separatist Peoples should RESIGN!

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Jarish Inyo
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Postby Jarish Inyo » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:40 pm

Opposed. The Empire does not give loans or grants to its citizens. Citizens are not entitled to higher education. Citizens are only entitled to what they earn. Outside of the Imperial Military Academies, colleges and universities are privately owned and ran. And do not receive any financial support from the Empire. The Empire will not give any aid to citizen that can not afford a higher education. Nor will we interfere with what a private education institution charges.

We also do not provide any aid, financial or otherwise, to immigrants. All immigrants are illegal in the Empire and are dealt with to the fullest of Imperial law.
Ambassador Nameless
Empire of Jaresh Inyo

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Cardoness
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Postby Cardoness » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:29 am

There are countless studies that show advanced education is one of the leading factors in driving up the GDP of a nation. Universally, higher education is a boon to the economy. In addition, a highly educated workforce allows a state to be more competitive on the global trade market. Studies have also shown that the more educated the population is, the more politically free society is. For all these reasons, and more, a state should want to have highly educated citizens. Further, it is of great economic and societal benefit to the state for other states to also have highly educated populations. Just as a healthy environment is of benefit to all, so too is an educated populace.
Speaker Andreas, Ambassador to the World Assembly, Founder of the United League of Nations.
Frustrated Franciscans wrote:We are firmly against the godless, utopian, progressive overreach that a small number of nations in the World Assembly want to impose upon the multiverse...

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Imperial Polk County
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Postby Imperial Polk County » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:47 am

United Massachusetts wrote:Authorizes the usage of the World Assembly General Fund to assist impoverished member nations in fulfilling the demands of this resolution.

"May I ask, what makes a nation impoverished? Looking at my own tiny nation of less than a million people, we're reliant on other nations in our region for goods and services we cannot provide for ourselves due to our size and location and a lack of natural resources, other than citrus fruits and phosphates. We could certainly use the assistance from the WA to improve our colleges and universities, even though the great majority of our citizens themselves do not live in poverty. The Emperor excluded, of course, he's as poor as they come."
-- Herbert Jackson Drane IV, WA Ambassador of the newly independent Imperial Polk County, Population 665,000. That "xxx million" population stat? It's most certainly a typo.

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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:13 am

OOC: In development economics, there is a significant concern that overemphasis on tertiary education leads both to large costs to society and an inefficient allocation of education resources. Higher education is not the end-all for everything and everyone. Rather, it is widespread primary education that should be emphasised. Redistributing resources away as this resolution would do both reduces equity and output.

Furthermore, the existence of a highly educated workforce does little, if anything, without resolution of the accompanying coordination problems that emerge with stratified labour and capital pools. Highly educated citizens are little more than marginally productive domestically without the existence of coordinating high-quality institutions and inputs. Absent large-scale movements of multiple markets from low output equilibria to higher output equilibria, those highly educated citizens simply leave for other nations, leaving domestic economies worse off than before, having spent to educate an émigré which contributes little back.

Focusing on the need for coordination between different market segments would be more beneficial than throwing resources to a market in which economists are increasingly doubtful of positive implicit net returns.

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United Massachusetts
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Postby United Massachusetts » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:35 pm

Imperium Anglorum wrote:OOC: In development economics, there is a significant concern that overemphasis on tertiary education leads both to large costs to society and an inefficient allocation of education resources. Higher education is not the end-all for everything and everyone. Rather, it is widespread primary education that should be emphasised. Redistributing resources away as this resolution would do both reduces equity and output.

Furthermore, the existence of a highly educated workforce does little, if anything, without resolution of the accompanying coordination problems that emerge with stratified labour and capital pools. Highly educated citizens are little more than marginally productive domestically without the existence of coordinating high-quality institutions and inputs. Absent large-scale movements of multiple markets from low output equilibria to higher output equilibria, those highly educated citizens simply leave for other nations, leaving domestic economies worse off than before, having spent to educate an émigré which contributes little back.

Focusing on the need for coordination between different market segments would be more beneficial than throwing resources to a market in which economists are increasingly doubtful of positive implicit net returns.

"Good ambassador, is not primary education already guaranteed by this Assembly, and the quality thereof secured by usage of the General Fund? I reject the notion that this would somehow detract from access to basic education, given the mandates imposed on us by extant resolution.

As for your concern with regard to emigration, a nation without first access thereto will forever remain in a vicious cycle, in which the few educated emigrate, leaving the nation itself severely limited in a financial regard. The only way to promote development in the long-term, therefore, is to invest in higher education."

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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:06 pm

United Massachusetts wrote:As for your concern with regard to emigration, a nation without first access thereto will forever remain in a vicious cycle, in which the few educated emigrate, leaving the nation itself severely limited in a financial regard. The only way to promote development in the long-term, therefore, is to invest in higher education."

No. It's to promote broad-based education. If we look at the empirical reality of employment not simply as a marginal cost-benefit market, but rather, as a matching market, you would see the social inefficiency of education in a low-capital environment that is incapable of matching education to similarly effective factors of production.

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United Massachusetts
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Postby United Massachusetts » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:22 am

Imperium Anglorum wrote:
United Massachusetts wrote:As for your concern with regard to emigration, a nation without first access thereto will forever remain in a vicious cycle, in which the few educated emigrate, leaving the nation itself severely limited in a financial regard. The only way to promote development in the long-term, therefore, is to invest in higher education."

No. It's to promote broad-based education. If we look at the empirical reality of employment not simply as a marginal cost-benefit market, but rather, as a matching market, you would see the social inefficiency of education in a low-capital environment that is incapable of matching education to similarly effective factors of production.

The only way to improve a low-capital environment and transform it into a high capital one heavily involves widespread higher education. You would apparently seem to hinder the growth capacity of impoverished countries by not pushing for universal higher education.

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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:00 am

"The Confederate Dominion defers to her Excellency, Ambassador Wellesley on matters economic. The Imperium seems to produce better economists than the C.D.S.P. We seem to only really excel in attorneys, soldiers, and smugglers."

His Worshipfulness, the Most Unscrupulous, Plainly Deceitful, Dissembling, Strategicly Calculating Lord GA Secretariat, Authority on All Existence, Arbiter of Right, Toxic Globalist Dog, Dark Psychic Vampire, and Chief Populist Elitist!
Separatist Peoples should RESIGN!

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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:18 am

United Massachusetts wrote:The only way to improve a low-capital environment and transform it into a high capital one heavily involves widespread higher education. You would apparently seem to hinder the growth capacity of impoverished countries by not pushing for universal higher education.

No. Capital stock increases primarily from two factors: institutional development of functioning capital markets and savings. More interesting literature has emerged connecting development aid to rent-seeking, a lack of political accountability, and institutional decay, raising significant concerns on that front as well.¹ It is, however, undeniable that domestic savings in a satisfactory institutional environment can produce desired capital investment. You do not get that from squandering resources.

However it is, higher education, if it does not increase marginal productivity, will not increase aggregate wages. (Reasonable increases thereof also require effective competitive markets, but non-monopsony markets are a 'good enough' second best.) Universal higher education is not some kind of end-all in of itself. There is a considerable literature noting the social inequalities and inefficiencies associated with focusing limited education resources higher education. Foremost that comes to mind are three topics: (1) spiralling credentialism, creating a feedback loop increasing demand for higher education without similar increases in productivity;² (2) a more broad review of equity and efficiency in public subsidisation of education and health by the World Bank;³ and (3) a more empirical estimate of returns to schooling in developing economies.⁴

Furthermore, your responses to the brain drain argument don't seem to account for transition dynamics. How, if there exists a space where people would sooner emigrate than say where they are, spanning nations with middle income, would increasing education not lead to more people leaving? What do you propose, emigration controls? (Unavailable, see GA resolution 'Right to Emigration'.) It is similar to people claiming that we can solve something like a refugee crisis by increasing aid. Ignoring the fact that development aid is corrosive to domestic institutions and simply does not get transformed into capital investment, even if it worked, emigration increases with income until a position of near-convergence. Growth does not proceed at the rate necessary to avoid mass population flight. A rough calculation of necessary capital investment to sustain such growth, given inefficiency and rapid depreciation, would probably exceed national income.

Secondarily, your responses vis-à-vis adequate provision of primary education, to me, don't seem to make sense. First, it seems ridiculous that all nations would implement all World Assembly programmes perfectly. Second, there is significant inequality in secondary and primary school quality, along with considerable literature which attempts to disentangle school quality with school quantity.⁵ A lack of necessary training, capital, teacher absenteeism (especially when funded school positions are doled out as patronage), etc. can really only be solved by institutional reforms. And those reforms are not ones that can simply be bought with money or conditioned on aid.¹



¹ Moyo, Dead Aid.
² Ragui Assaad, "The effects of public sector hiring and compensation policies on the Egyptian labour market", World Bank Economic Review.
³ Emmanuel Jiminez, "The public subsidisation of education and health in developing countries: A review of equity and efficiency", World Bank Research Observer. Also, see, Michael Todaro and Edgar Edwards, "Educational demand and supply in the context of growing unemployment in less developed countries", World Development.
⁴ Paul Glewwe, "The relevance of standard estimates of rates of return on schooling in developing countries", Journal of Development Economics.
⁵ Jere Behrman and Nancy Birdsall, "The quality of schooling: Quantity alone is misleading", American Economic Review.
Last edited by Imperium Anglorum on Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:41 am, edited 5 times in total.

Author: 1 SC and 56+ GA resolutions
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GenSec (24 Dec 2021 –); posts not official unless so indicated
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United Massachusetts
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Founded: Jan 17, 2016
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Postby United Massachusetts » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:22 pm

Though I do plan to respond to IA's comments, I'd like to first see if there are any proposed texual edits. Is this passable? How can we improve it?

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States of Glory WA Office
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Founded: Jul 26, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby States of Glory WA Office » Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:54 pm

United Massachusetts wrote:Though I do plan to respond to IA's comments, I'd like to first see if there are any proposed texual edits. Is this passable? How can we improve it?

OOC: IA lost me at 'capital stock', but I'm not getting into an economics debate with him. From the looks of it, the very premise of the proposal is flawed on a fundamental level, so I doubt that I can support this.

In regards to Clause Three, however, it might be worth specifying that monies from the General Fund may only be requested by member states in the event that said state is genuinely unable to cover the costs themselves.
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United Massachusetts
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Postby United Massachusetts » Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:37 pm

States of Glory WA Office wrote:
United Massachusetts wrote:Though I do plan to respond to IA's comments, I'd like to first see if there are any proposed texual edits. Is this passable? How can we improve it?

OOC: IA lost me at 'capital stock', but I'm not getting into an economics debate with him. From the looks of it, the very premise of the proposal is flawed on a fundamental level, so I doubt that I can support this.

In regards to Clause Three, however, it might be worth specifying that monies from the General Fund may only be requested by member states in the event that said state is genuinely unable to cover the costs themselves.

I swear to God, IA's probably some famous well-publicized economist

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Aclion
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Founded: Apr 12, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Aclion » Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:28 pm

The TLDR is:
[*]Higher education does not mean higher wages or higher productivity. You need to develop economically to the point that workers can use that education in domestic industry. That means fighting corruption and developing the institutions that can support advanced industries.
[*]Highly educated people in undeveloped countries will be able to earn better wages in developed countries, because WA nations cannot prevent emigration they cannot ensure the scarce resources they invested in a person education will be used to develop their economy. This resolution will force poorer nations to fund the education of rich nations workforces.
A popular Government, without popular information, or the means of acquiring it, is but a Prologue to a Farce or a Tragedy; or, perhaps both. - James Madison.

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Araraukar
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Postby Araraukar » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:05 am

United Massachusetts wrote:I swear to God, IA's probably some famous well-publicized economist

OOC: He's said he majored in ecomony, but I can't remember if he's said he's graduated already.
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States of Glory WA Office
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Postby States of Glory WA Office » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:51 pm

Aclion wrote:The TLDR is:
[*]Higher education does not mean higher wages or higher productivity. You need to develop economically to the point that workers can use that education in domestic industry. That means fighting corruption and developing the institutions that can support advanced industries.
[*]Highly educated people in undeveloped countries will be able to earn better wages in developed countries, because WA nations cannot prevent emigration they cannot ensure the scarce resources they invested in a person education will be used to develop their economy. This resolution will force poorer nations to fund the education of rich nations workforces.

OOC: Assuming that this is an accurate representation of IA's argument, thanks. :)

Even if that's not what IA is arguing, I agree with these arguments nonetheless. Opposed.
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