Catalonia Megathread: Should Catalonia Separate From Spain?

[Republica Federal de Catalunya]

It probable the Spain bankrupt in short term. If in January if ECB cuts, as it has been told, the amount of debt it finances.

It's probable that catalan separatists use the december 21st regional election into a referendum. They currently have about 49% of vote. If the break the 50% vote line in the elections it could force having a qualified majority to reenforce the independence proclamation.

[Socialist Federative Slavia]

It probable the Spain bankrupt in short term. If in January if ECB cuts, as it has been told, the amount of debt it finances.

It's probable that catalan separatists use the december 21st regional election into a referendum. They currently have about 49% of vote. If the break the 50% vote line in the elections it could force having a qualified majority to reenforce the independence proclamation.

And you don`t care at all if Spain goes bankrupt and its people suffer horrific austerity?
My point exactly.

[Dooom35796821595]

It probable the Spain bankrupt in short term. If in January if ECB cuts, as it has been told, the amount of debt it finances.

It's probable that catalan separatists use the december 21st regional election into a referendum. They currently have about 49% of vote. If the break the 50% vote line in the elections it could force having a qualified majority to reenforce the independence proclamation.

And you don`t care at all if Spain goes bankrupt and its people suffer horrific austerity?
My point exactly.

If the only thing stopping Spain going bankrupt is a small province providing higher taxes, then surely its due to its own fiscal ineptitude?

[Socialist Federative Slavia]

And you don`t care at all if Spain goes bankrupt and its people suffer horrific austerity?
My point exactly.

If the only thing stopping Spain going bankrupt is a small province providing higher taxes, then surely its due to its own fiscal ineptitude?

It is not a small province. It is geographically small, but economically and populationally large.

[Major-Tom]

I was against Catalan independence, but after everything and more research into how Catalonia's economy could potentially fare, I would personally have no qualms with a Catalan state.

[Dooom35796821595]

If the only thing stopping Spain going bankrupt is a small province providing higher taxes, then surely its due to its own fiscal ineptitude?

It is not a small province. It is geographically small, but economically and populationally large.

It's smaller then the rest of Spain. And if it is financially proping up a failed Spain, then Spain as a nation has still failed.

[Socialist Federative Slavia]

It is not a small province. It is geographically small, but economically and populationally large.

It's smaller then the rest of Spain. And if it is financially proping up a failed Spain, then Spain as a nation has still failed.

Spain hasn`t "failed" it is being destroyed through austerity, and Catalan independance is going to make it worse.

[Dooom35796821595]

It's smaller then the rest of Spain. And if it is financially proping up a failed Spain, then Spain as a nation has still failed.

Spain hasn`t "failed" it is being destroyed through austerity, and Catalan independance is going to make it worse.

And whose fault is the Austerity? Spain. Spains failings are its own fault.

[Chestaan]

It's smaller then the rest of Spain. And if it is financially proping up a failed Spain, then Spain as a nation has still failed.

Spain hasn`t "failed" it is being destroyed through austerity, and Catalan independance is going to make it worse.

It's not the responsibility of Catalonia to stay within Spain just because it is convenient for the rest of the country.

[Pinochets Beach Party]

Might as well let them and if they don't do well as a country then it's on their shoulders, not Spain's.

[Pasong Tirad]

It is not a small province. It is geographically small, but economically and populationally large.

It's smaller then the rest of Spain. And if it is financially proping up a failed Spain, then Spain as a nation has still failed.

Spain was only really successful when it was an empire anyway.

[Greed and Death]

It probable the Spain bankrupt in short term. If in January if ECB cuts, as it has been told, the amount of debt it finances.

It's probable that catalan separatists use the december 21st regional election into a referendum. They currently have about 49% of vote. If the break the 50% vote line in the elections it could force having a qualified majority to reenforce the independence proclamation.

And you don`t care at all if Spain goes bankrupt and its people suffer horrific austerity?
My point exactly.

When they are trying to keep the Catalonians who pay the bills in the country by force my empathy does decrease a bit.

[Salus Maior]

It probable the Spain bankrupt in short term. If in January if ECB cuts, as it has been told, the amount of debt it finances.

It's probable that catalan separatists use the december 21st regional election into a referendum. They currently have about 49% of vote. If the break the 50% vote line in the elections it could force having a qualified majority to reenforce the independence proclamation.

That's not going to matter if they don't get the police, and other nations on their side.

[Socialist Czechia]

Spain is not the worst one, when it comes to debts
This will be bane of our generation, states printing money faster than newspapers, backed by nothing physical.

But at least Spain will have some gold to not collapse completely (282 tons now). Portugal has even +100 tons more.

[Nevada Communes]

I feel like letting Catalonia break away would set a dangerous precedent. Would Europe even let it happen - assuming Spain didn't quash it first?

[Socialist Federative Slavia]

Spain hasn`t "failed" it is being destroyed through austerity, and Catalan independance is going to make it worse.

And whose fault is the Austerity? Spain. Spains failings are its own fault.

It`s not the fault of "Spain" it`s the fault of Spain`s tratorous politicians and international fascist organizations such as the ECB, IMF and WTO.
Big business interests forced Europe into the neoliberal wage grinding, deflation generating, economic devastation-machine called the EU.
None of that is the fault of the people of Spain, and Catalonia seceding would only increase their plight, while Catalonia itself would be annihilated with sanctions, bombing, and possible invasion.
Stand with the people of Spain against austerity, don`t desert them to an even worse burden.

[Rio Cana]

Seems some forget that while the Spanish economy might not be that good that they offset it by investing overseas.

From 2014 -

The rebound in investment abroad is enhancing corporate Spain’s position on the global stage and enabling it to better weather its still weak domestic market.

Also, many Latin American companies have been investing in Spain in order to get a foothold in the EU. zone.

Read - https://www.reuters.com/article/spain-l ... HN20140108

[Vyzhva]

I personally consider every culture to have unique cultural and ethnic traits, which they have the right to exercise in a sovereign state, so I guess you could say I am a supporter of Catalan separatism and the ultimate independence of said ethnic group.

[Socialist Nordia]

https://strawpoll.com/3zw41r1x

I made a poll for the upcoming election.

[Pasong Tirad]

I feel like letting Catalonia break away would set a dangerous precedent. Would Europe even let it happen - assuming Spain didn't quash it first?

It's not Europe's call.

[Greater Istanistan]

I feel like letting Catalonia break away would set a dangerous precedent. Would Europe even let it happen - assuming Spain didn't quash it first?

I have few qualms with stronger federalism under the EU - it shifts power towards local democracy and transnational institutions. At present the federal body's status is kinda doubtful and in need of reform, but as a whole less plurinational states within a more plurinational union makes sure that the rights of current minorities and regions are better-respected.

[The of Japan]

Almost everyone around me who wants independence (a pretty large amount of people btw) care little or nothing about that, or at least not enough to be their main concern and what drives them to want independence for Catalonia.
From those who I asked these last months, a big amount of them want it because they are disappointed with the actions of the Spanish state during these last years and the amount of corruption inside of it. Some others (mostly my left-wing friends) want it because it represents an opportunity to create a republic (republicanism has always been a bit more popular here than in the rest of Spain) and get rid of the monarchy which hasn't ever been very liked, and even I have a few friends who want it so Catalans could have a state which could bring us to the global stage. And, of course, there are always the ones who want it just because of pure nationalism.
As you see, the amount of reasons is fairly diverse, and I don't deny that some people here want independence just because it means more money, but overall, that's just seen as some of the benefits that will come with an independent state.

All of what you just described is another way of stating Puigdemont`s platform "Gib Muh Back Muh Muhny Muhdrid!" The bad behaviour of Madrid you speak of is really just anager about austerity, so again, your people want more money.
That`s not a bad thing in and of itself, but it is absolutely horrible that they want to do it through nationalist secessionism, not through fighting against austerity with the rest of Spain.
Just as I explained in my previous posts, this will only create instability, burden Spain with more debt and a lower income, and thus force it into harsher austerity, while Catalonia gets all the blame, and some brutal, Iraq-or-Yugoslavia-in-the-90s-style sanctions.
Catalonia alone can be crushed with such sanctions, Spain cannot.
So any social democracy you could get thrugh independance would be erased many times over by the international reactionaries.
Fight neoliberalism in an alliance with the whole of Spain, the whole of Europe, don`t try to split and leave the rest of them handling the burden of debt with fewer hands.

Clearly many in Europe still favour neoliberalism

[Tananat]

I feel like letting Catalonia break away would set a dangerous precedent. Would Europe even let it happen - assuming Spain didn't quash it first?

It's not Europe's call.

Technically, it's no ones call, as secession from Spain is illegal.

[Socialist Czechia]

It's not Europe's call.

Technically, it's no ones call, as secession from Spain is illegal.

Law is no argument here, as historically, countries were 'made' by rebellion, war or civil war. Even 'legitimate' plebiscites/referendas were usually made under threats of violence or political instability in entire country.
This fact lasts few millenias already.

What about idea, that country essentially 'deserves' rebellion or civil war, if there's too much corruption?

Bad Spain certainly deserves rebellion to fall upon thee.

[Pasong Tirad]

It's not Europe's call.

Technically, it's no ones call, as secession from Spain is illegal.

I feel like this issue of legality is going to be brought up even after the whole world recognized Catalan independence. Because self-determination is illegal, apparently.