Nationalist Arguments Against Capitalism

[Kubra]

Any self-respecting nationalist should be against capitalism. It's individualist nature is tantamount to social Darwinism, which doesn't favor the nation in any way. Capitalist Nationalists make as much sense as Russian Nazis. If anything capitalism goes best with anarchism.

>russian nazi's
but that's a thing
a really big thing

[The Founding Fatherland]

Any self-respecting nationalist should be against capitalism. It's individualist nature is tantamount to social Darwinism, which doesn't favor the nation in any way. Capitalist Nationalists make as much sense as Russian Nazis. If anything capitalism goes best with anarchism.

>russian nazi's
but that's a thing
a really big thing

I know it's a thing, but it's a thing that doesn't make sense. Russians - like all Slavs except the Croats for some reason - were considered subhuman by the Nazis, so being a Russian Nazi makes no sense.

I never said they don't exist.

[Shikihara]

Any self-respecting nationalist should be against capitalism. It's individualist nature is tantamount to social Darwinism, which doesn't favor the nation in any way. Capitalist Nationalists make as much sense as Russian Nazis. If anything capitalism goes best with anarchism.

Instead we should favor outdated Fascist economics such as corporatism, autarky, etc. which were all disastrous and abandoned by Spain?

[Taihei Tengoku]

Literally a road to serfdom, amazing


This would be recognizable to most peasants, late premodern landlords were often absentees.

Indeed, sharply distinguishing that mode from feudalism

True, but it is the form of "tying people to the land" closest to current economic complexity.

[Kubra]

Indeed, sharply distinguishing that mode from feudalism

True, but it is the form of "tying people to the land" closest to current economic complexity.

and it's the aspect of serfdom that has us consider it a form of slavery, both with and without a landlord present on the land.

[Taihei Tengoku]

Well yes, it is more to stroke the hardon RWDT has for paternalistic oppression rather than an actual economic system that would exist IRL

If you care about the welfare maximization of any large group there really is only one option

[Kubra]

Well yes, it is more to stroke the hardon RWDT has for paternalistic oppression rather than an actual economic system that would exist IRL

If you care about the welfare maximization of any large group there really is only one option

luxury automated gay space communism, of course

[Taihei Tengoku]

Well yes, it is more to stroke the hardon RWDT has for paternalistic oppression rather than an actual economic system that would exist IRL

If you care about the welfare maximization of any large group there really is only one option

luxury automated gay space communism, of course

This is what people who have had their welfare maximized care about

[Kubra]

luxury automated gay space communism, of course

This is what people who have had their welfare maximized care about

Tut tut, Liebniz. There's no reason for a serf of old not to consider his welfare maximised.

[The Founding Fatherland]

Any self-respecting nationalist should be against capitalism. It's individualist nature is tantamount to social Darwinism, which doesn't favor the nation in any way. Capitalist Nationalists make as much sense as Russian Nazis. If anything capitalism goes best with anarchism.

Instead we should favor outdated Fascist economics such as corporatism, autarky, etc. which were all disastrous and abandoned by Spain?

Autarky isn't fascist, it's stupid.

Oh, and for the record: Spain was never fascist and neither was Franco, for that matter. He was a conservative authoritarian who used the Falange to gain power.

[Shikihara]

Autarky isn't fascist, it's stupid.

Autarky was one of the primary principles of Fascism in order for the nation-state to achieve self-reliance. It was indeed stupid, while it did achieve some productivity in steel production, it caused other fields to plummet.

Oh, and for the record: Spain was never fascist and neither was Franco, for that matter.

For the first few years of it's existence, the Francoist regime in Spain was economically Fascist, or to use their euphemism for it, national syndicalist. It failed miserably and was one reason for Franco abandoning corporatism in favor of capitalism.

[Republic of the Cristo]

Any self-respecting nationalist should be against capitalism. It's individualist nature is tantamount to social Darwinism, which doesn't favor the nation in any way. Capitalist Nationalists make as much sense as Russian Nazis. If anything capitalism goes best with anarchism.

Instead we should favor outdated Fascist economics such as corporatism, autarky, etc. which were all disastrous and abandoned by Spain?

... You do realize that we still use corporatism today right? We may not have corporate councils ( though even still some nations like Russia have this ) but state-capitalism is huge. The Scandinavian nations regularly work along side and subsidize their numerous industries, and China created their entire economy based around a state capitalist model similar to that of Germany ( with more focus upon lighter industries than heavy industries though ). Autarky of course though should be foregone.

[Republic of the Cristo]

Autarky isn't fascist, it's stupid.

Autarky was one of the primary principles of Fascism in order for the nation-state to achieve self-reliance. It was indeed stupid, while it did achieve some productivity in steel production, it caused other fields to plummet.

Oh, and for the record: Spain was never fascist and neither was Franco, for that matter.

For the first few years of it's existence, the Francoist regime in Spain was economically Fascist, or to use their euphemism for it, national syndicalist. It failed miserably and was one reason for Franco abandoning corporatism in favor of capitalism.

Actually, the Spanish miracle was a direct result of corporatism. Which lasted up until Franco's final years. I don't know what you are talking about?: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_miracle#History

[Shikihara]

Instead we should favor outdated Fascist economics such as corporatism, autarky, etc. which were all disastrous and abandoned by Spain?

... You do realize that we still use corporatism today right? We may not have corporate councils ( though even still some nations like Russia have this ) but state-capitalism is huge. The Scandinavian nations regularly work along side and subsidize their numerous industries, and China created their entire economy based around a state capitalist model similar to that of Germany ( with more focus upon lighter industries than heavy industries though ). Autarky of course though should be foregone.

State capitalism is not the same thing as corporatism, and I was mainly thinking about Fascist or Catholic corporatism which was their own economic systems, instead of tripartite corporatism which was mainly collective bargaining and unions that worked alongside capitalism rather then attempting to replace it.

Autarky was one of the primary principles of Fascism in order for the nation-state to achieve self-reliance. It was indeed stupid, while it did achieve some productivity in steel production, it caused other fields to plummet.

For the first few years of it's existence, the Francoist regime in Spain was economically Fascist, or to use their euphemism for it, national syndicalist. It failed miserably and was one reason for Franco abandoning corporatism in favor of capitalism.

Actually, the Spanish miracle was a direct result of corporatism. Which lasted up until Franco's final years. I don't know what you are talking about?: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_miracle#History

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economics_of_fascism

During and after the Spanish Civil War, Franco and the Falange created a corporative system based on the Italian model. Economic liberalism was replaced with economic intervention according to the wishes of the corporations, which also set prices and wages. Combined with autarky, and in the absence of Marshall Plan aid after the Second World War, Spain's post-war economic growth stagnated. The Spanish corporative system was less successful than the Italian experience. At one point, the Spanish farmers' corporation created a massive bread shortage by setting the price too low. As a result, bread production was abandoned in favour of other, more profitable goods. Although the aim of this policy was to make bread accessible to the poorest among the population, the opposite occurred, and a black market emerged.

In 1954, Franco abandoned the corporative system in favour of free-market reforms implemented by economic technocrats. Many of these technocrats were members of Opus Dei, a Roman Catholic lay group to which Franco had given powerful positions within the Ministry of Finance and Economics.[137] The reforms of the 1950s were a huge success, and Spain experienced a period of rapid economic growth known as the "Spanish Miracle", continuing until Franco's death in 1975.

The technocrats convinced Franco to abandon the corporatist system a few years before the economic miracle.

[Republic of the Cristo]

... You do realize that we still use corporatism today right? We may not have corporate councils ( though even still some nations like Russia have this ) but state-capitalism is huge. The Scandinavian nations regularly work along side and subsidize their numerous industries, and China created their entire economy based around a state capitalist model similar to that of Germany ( with more focus upon lighter industries than heavy industries though ). Autarky of course though should be foregone.

State capitalism is not the same thing as corporatism, and I was mainly thinking about Fascist or Catholic corporatism which was their own economic systems, instead of tripartite corporatism which was mainly collective bargaining and unions that worked alongside capitalism rather then attempting to replace it.

Actually, the Spanish miracle was a direct result of corporatism. Which lasted up until Franco's final years. I don't know what you are talking about?: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_miracle#History

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economics_of_fascism

During and after the Spanish Civil War, Franco and the Falange created a corporative system based on the Italian model. Economic liberalism was replaced with economic intervention according to the wishes of the corporations, which also set prices and wages. Combined with autarky, and in the absence of Marshall Plan aid after the Second World War, Spain's post-war economic growth stagnated. The Spanish corporative system was less successful than the Italian experience. At one point, the Spanish farmers' corporation created a massive bread shortage by setting the price too low. As a result, bread production was abandoned in favour of other, more profitable goods. Although the aim of this policy was to make bread accessible to the poorest among the population, the opposite occurred, and a black market emerged.

In 1954, Franco abandoned the corporative system in favour of free-market reforms implemented by economic technocrats. Many of these technocrats were members of Opus Dei, a Roman Catholic lay group to which Franco had given powerful positions within the Ministry of Finance and Economics.[137] The reforms of the 1950s were a huge success, and Spain experienced a period of rapid economic growth known as the "Spanish Miracle", continuing until Franco's death in 1975.

The technocrats convinced Franco to abandon the corporatist system a few years before the economic miracle.

The two are essentially the same: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporati ... orporatism

We tend to think of Mussolinis corporate councils when we think corporatism, but it's been used through various other methods by other states as the article outlines. And did you bother reading the specifics of the Spanish miracle article? It wasn't a matter of creating free market capitalism, it was government investment into state run companies and protectionism to protect industry with some minor freeing up of the market place. It was distinctly corporatist, go back to the article and look it over.


Edit: even their definitions are similar
State Capitalism:
a political system in which the state has control of production and the use of capital.
Corporatism:
the control of a state or organization by large interest groups

[The of Japan]

My issue with the above is that it disregards WHO is meant to profit. The people are meant to profit. And in a functioning Capitalist system, they would. What we have now is socialistic ideals creeping into our legitimate regulation, and blatant rigging of the system.

We need to make money in politics utterly transparent. Because getting rid of it is never going to happen, so instead we make it so people can SEE who's taking bribes from whom.

A capitalist system is self consciously about private profit. That's how it's structured, that's the point of it. And making political bribery more transparent doesn't change anything. You can go through and examine a great deal of corporate funding in the United States and other countries right now in dozens of different sites. Nothing has changed since these initiatives started.

No country is totally capitalistic; the west is a mix of capitalism and "socialism"

[Republic of the Roman Nations]

A capitalist system is self consciously about private profit. That's how it's structured, that's the point of it. And making political bribery more transparent doesn't change anything. You can go through and examine a great deal of corporate funding in the United States and other countries right now in dozens of different sites. Nothing has changed since these initiatives started.

No country is totally capitalistic; the west is a mix of capitalism and "socialism"

Yes, a mixed market. To be honest it's the only way to go, but I do feel the system should be more capitalistic than not. The government should provide safety nets and an even playing field but what everyone gets should be meritocratic.

[The of Japan]

No country is totally capitalistic; the west is a mix of capitalism and "socialism"

Yes, a mixed market. To be honest it's the only way to go, but I do feel the system should be more capitalistic than not. The government should provide safety nets and an even playing field but what everyone gets should be meritocratic.

Clear playing field. Even playing field cannot be guaranteed, but the govt should clear the field of any pitfalls or traps.

[Republic of the Cristo]

I think it should operate where the market falls short. 1 in 6 people acrossed the United States are faced with not knowing when their next meal will be, I think a government program to purchase and distribute the quarter of yearly crops wasted to these people would be acceptable. Or like how our automotive industry has been getting the serious hurt over the last couple of years resulting in the loss of tens of thousands of jobs. A few protections to ensure domestic growth and security would be acceptable as well. The government should not seek to create the market, only make up for it's shortfalls for the good of the nation.

[Bakery Hill]

A capitalist system is self consciously about private profit. That's how it's structured, that's the point of it. And making political bribery more transparent doesn't change anything. You can go through and examine a great deal of corporate funding in the United States and other countries right now in dozens of different sites. Nothing has changed since these initiatives started.

No country is totally capitalistic; the west is a mix of capitalism and "socialism"

Government is not socialist. This concept is an American disease and must die.

[Ostroeuropa]

No country is totally capitalistic; the west is a mix of capitalism and "socialism"

Government is not socialist. This concept is an American disease and must die.

"I would like to see the word nationalization banned from socialist vocabulary."
-Phillip Snowden, first Labour Party chancellor of the exchequer.
(Notably, the first labour term was pretty hard left.)

[Bakery Hill]

Government is not socialist. This concept is an American disease and must die.

"I would like to see the word nationalization banned from socialist vocabulary."
-Phillip Snowden, first Labour Party chancellor of the exchequer.
(Notably, the first labour term was pretty hard left.)

I dunno, it sounds more patriotic don't you think?

[Ostroeuropa]

"I would like to see the word nationalization banned from socialist vocabulary."
-Phillip Snowden, first Labour Party chancellor of the exchequer.
(Notably, the first labour term was pretty hard left.)

I dunno, it sounds more patriotic don't you think?

The issue is that the state has co-opted the nation.
Stateification is bad.
Nationalization is a worthy goal.

Stateification should be what we call it, but it's too late for that.

I'm not some anarchist either. The state has its function and its place, it's just not in managing economic sectors directly.

[Ostroeuropa]

A capitalist system is self consciously about private profit. That's how it's structured, that's the point of it. And making political bribery more transparent doesn't change anything. You can go through and examine a great deal of corporate funding in the United States and other countries right now in dozens of different sites. Nothing has changed since these initiatives started.

No country is totally capitalistic; the west is a mix of capitalism and "socialism"

Capitalism and state capitalism. (I think that's what your quotes were about.)
There is no sector of the wests economy that is typically controlled by the workers.

A state is not socialist merely because the state runs its economy, unless the workers also run the state.

[Bakery Hill]

I dunno, it sounds more patriotic don't you think?

The issue is that the state has co-opted the nation.
Stateification is bad.
Nationalization is a worthy goal.

Stateification should be what we call it, but it's too late for that.

I'm not some anarchist either. The state has its function and its place, it's just not in managing economic sectors directly.

I can see what you mean there.