The #MeToo Campaign (Updated)

[Chestaan]

Why not?

What proportion of men have been sexually harassed compared to women?

What proportion of men have been murdered compared to women?

[Galloism]

If we define harrassment loosely, most women I know have been sexually harassed. I would not say the same about men.

Actually, define it broadly enough that most women have been sexually harassed, and most men have probably been sexually harassed.

Men are just trained not to see it as harassment when women do it. This makes data collection hard.

[Ethel mermania]

What proportion of men have been sexually harassed compared to women?

What proportion of men have been murdered compared to women?

Which has to do with sexual harrassment how?

Or

what proportion of men are murders compared to women?

Only one of these deals with the topic at hand

[New Edom]

Here are RAINN's statistics:

"One in 9 girls and 1 in 53 boys under the age of 18 experience sexual abuse or assault at the hands of an adult.3"


"Millions of men in the United States have been victims of rape.

As of 1998, 2.78 million men in the U.S. had been victims of attempted or completed rape.5
About 3% of American men—or 1 in 33—have experienced an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime.5
1 out of every 10 rape victims are male.8​"

Even if you take these figures to be exaggerated, it suggests that there are enough boys this happens to to make it a concern. Given that there have also been studies that suggest that boys and men are less likely to report, there may be more, we're not sure. In my own city, when they opened a men's counselling center for this purpose, some were skeptical that it even needed to be opened, and they were shocked to find a big waiting list for the resources.

Harrassed, not assaulted.

And if we were to speak of assault and use these numbers. (I don't believe them either).

The difference between 1 in 9, and in 53 is an order of magnitude difference which is pretty severe, aND might require a different approach to the issue.

Great. So you see it as a different problem and not as important a problem. This is why I brought up the transgender issue. There are a lot fewer transgender people than there are men, so why include them, as well, when talking about sexual assault, harassment, and general sexual misconduct?

[Senkaku]

-snip-

Cool, bro, you can copy and paste some poisonous examples of whatever you think you're crusading against repeatedly. I can go and repeatedly paste a bunch of MRA types saying awful things, too. I'm sure they'd be as toxic or even more so than Ms. Murphy, and just like her, they aren't somehow in charge of a fucking hashtag campaign and allowed to define what it means and who gets to post. Fuck off with this bullshit that if men also have problems, women somehow shouldn't be allowed to talk about theirs without having to qualify every statement with "and I know men suffer from this too."

[Senkaku]

If we define harrassment loosely, most women I know have been sexually harassed. I would not say the same about men.

Actually, define it broadly enough that most women have been sexually harassed, and most men have probably been sexually harassed.

Men are just trained not to see it as harassment when women do it. This makes data collection hard.

If a harassment happens in the woods, but the person being harassed doesn't notice or see it, were they harassed?

[Ethel mermania]

Harrassed, not assaulted.

And if we were to speak of assault and use these numbers. (I don't believe them either).

The difference between 1 in 9, and in 53 is an order of magnitude difference which is pretty severe, aND might require a different approach to the issue.

Great. So you see it as a different problem and not as important a problem. This is why I brought up the transgender issue. There are a lot fewer transgender people than there are men, so why include them, as well, when talking about sexual assault, harassment, and general sexual misconduct?

What proportion of trans folks are Harrassed v non trans folks?

Which still doesn't go back to the issue of harrassment of men v women.

[New Edom]

-snip-

Cool, bro, you can copy and paste some poisonous examples of whatever you think you're crusading against repeatedly. I can go and repeatedly paste a bunch of MRA types saying awful things, too. I'm sure they'd be as toxic or even more so than Ms. Murphy, and just like her, they aren't somehow in charge of a fucking hashtag campaign and allowed to define what it means and who gets to post. Fuck off with this bullshit that if men also have problems, women somehow shouldn't be allowed to talk about theirs without having to qualify every statement with "and I know men suffer from this too."

Or they could do what they are doing in Alberta and do a gender neutral campaign. They have done this with the express purpose of focus on helping victims broadly. None of that silences women. On that basis, if are the greater number of victims then they will receive more resources. As for dismissing my examples, those people are demanding policy, and have direct influence over policy. My concern over this is not that they are mentioning women first alone--it is that it forms part of a body of thought that says that rape and sexual misconduct are the resutls of culture and society subtly encouraging the victimization of women in particular. Because of this, male victims of abuse are not considered as much and are therefore less likely to get help. That is why I am concerned, and would prefer gender neutral language on this subject.

[Ethel mermania]

If we define harrassment loosely, most women I know have been sexually harassed. I would not say the same about men.

Actually, define it broadly enough that most women have been sexually harassed, and most men have probably been sexually harassed.

Men are just trained not to see it as harassment when women do it. This makes data collection hard.

I have never been cat called, sadly. I don't know a woman who hasn't been, even some fairly ugly ones.

[The BlAAtschApen]

Actually, define it broadly enough that most women have been sexually harassed, and most men have probably been sexually harassed.

Men are just trained not to see it as harassment when women do it. This makes data collection hard.

I have never been cat called, sadly. I don't know a woman who hasn't been, even some fairly ugly ones.

Over in TET we call you a cat constantly.

[Galloism]

Actually, define it broadly enough that most women have been sexually harassed, and most men have probably been sexually harassed.

Men are just trained not to see it as harassment when women do it. This makes data collection hard.

If a harassment happens in the woods, but the person being harassed doesn't notice or see it, were they harassed?

I smiled.

I'm not sure if men are sexually harassed more, less, or the same as women. I have no idea how we would even go about measuring it. Sexual harassment can be such a broad array of behaviors I'm not how we would behaviorally analyze it.

As an example, if you do a survey asking men if they've been raped, you will get a tiny response. If you ask men if they've ever been forced to engage in penetrative vaginal sex against their will, some of the men who said "no" to rape will say "yes" to that, even though that's very specifically rape. If you say penetrative vaginal, oral, or anal sex against their will, it'll be higher than that. If you drop the "against their will" and ask if someone has engaged with penetrative sex while they were literally passed out, it gets even higher than that.

This is because men are not told that they have any right to their own bodies, so they don't mentally classify any of those things as rape - even though they all are.

There's no doubt a similar effect with sexual harassment. However, sexual harassment covers such a broad array of behaviors, I'm not sure how you'd approach it with behavioral questions.

I have never been cat called, sadly. I don't know a woman who hasn't been, even some fairly ugly ones.

You probably have, actually. It's just normal for men to shrug this off.

[Ethel mermania]

I have never been cat called, sadly. I don't know a woman who hasn't been, even some fairly ugly ones.

Over in TET we call you a cat constantly.

You are a wolf in sheep's clothing you are

[Ethel mermania]

If a harassment happens in the woods, but the person being harassed doesn't notice or see it, were they harassed?

I smiled.

I'm not sure if men are sexually harassed more, less, or the same as women. I have no idea how we would even go about measuring it. Sexual harassment can be such a broad array of behaviors I'm not how we would behaviorally analyze it.

As an example, if you do a survey asking men if they've been raped, you will get a tiny response. If you ask men if they've ever been forced to engage in penetrative vaginal sex against their will, some of the men who said "no" to rape will say "yes" to that, even though that's very specifically rape. If you say penetrative vaginal, oral, or anal sex against their will, it'll be higher than that. If you drop the "against their will" and ask if someone has engaged with penetrative sex while they were literally passed out, it gets even higher than that.

This is because men are not told that they have any right to their own bodies, so they don't mentally classify any of those things as rape - even though they all are.

There's no doubt a similar effect with sexual harassment. However, sexual harassment covers such a broad array of behaviors, I'm not sure how you'd approach it with behavioral questions.

I have never been cat called, sadly. I don't know a woman who hasn't been, even some fairly ugly ones.

You probably have, actually. It's just normal for men to shrug this off.

*i* would have taken it as a compliment, but I have not. I have been told by female friends that other women thought I had a nice body or ass, but that is not harrassment.

[Galloism]

*i* would have taken it as a compliment, but I have not. I have been told by female friends that other women thought I had a nice body or ass, but that is not harrassment.

Protip: a lot of times when people say "<Other person> thinks you have a nice ass", it's because they want to tell you you have a nice ass without seeming to be the origin of it.

[New Edom]

If a harassment happens in the woods, but the person being harassed doesn't notice or see it, were they harassed?

I smiled.

I'm not sure if men are sexually harassed more, less, or the same as women. I have no idea how we would even go about measuring it. Sexual harassment can be such a broad array of behaviors I'm not how we would behaviorally analyze it.

As an example, if you do a survey asking men if they've been raped, you will get a tiny response. If you ask men if they've ever been forced to engage in penetrative vaginal sex against their will, some of the men who said "no" to rape will say "yes" to that, even though that's very specifically rape. If you say penetrative vaginal, oral, or anal sex against their will, it'll be higher than that. If you drop the "against their will" and ask if someone has engaged with penetrative sex while they were literally passed out, it gets even higher than that.

This is because men are not told that they have any right to their own bodies, so they don't mentally classify any of those things as rape - even though they all are.

There's no doubt a similar effect with sexual harassment. However, sexual harassment covers such a broad array of behaviors, I'm not sure how you'd approach it with behavioral questions.

I have never been cat called, sadly. I don't know a woman who hasn't been, even some fairly ugly ones.

You probably have, actually. It's just normal for men to shrug this off.

Part of the difficulty is that even as people have raised awareness about harassment and catcalling for women, there is little real discussion of what is appropriate. At least two anti-harassment campaigns I know of suggested that ANY approach to a woman other than the most utterly form was inappropriate in public. In my opinion, contrary to what is being popularly presented, there is actually little information on how one ought to go about expression admiration to another person, or in what context, other than 'don't'.

If this is the case then, it creates further confusion. Men are generally expected to make the first move, and are supposed to relish sexual attention. I would argue that the problem here is that it is hard to know what is good and bad to receive, as well. If we're being honest, there are lots of times I have seen women initiating sex or flirtation in movies or television shows taking actions which, if done by a man, would be targeted for review by feminists as enabling rape culture. It is seen as harmless for women to do this though. Indeed, as shown in this thread, misconduct by women is barely worthy of conversation.

[Ethel mermania]

*i* would have taken it as a compliment, but I have not. I have been told by female friends that other women thought I had a nice body or ass, but that is not harrassment.

Protip: a lot of times when people say "<Other person> thinks you have a nice ass", it's because they want to tell you you have a nice ass without seeming to be the origin of it.

DamnIt. Where were you when I needed that info.

[Galloism]

Protip: a lot of times when people say "<Other person> thinks you have a nice ass", it's because they want to tell you you have a nice ass without seeming to be the origin of it.

DamnIt. Where were you when I needed that info.

You should hang out with me more. I've made it kind of a hobby to study human behavior.

It's a bit of an outsider looking in, but it's fascinating.

[Chestaan]

What proportion of men have been murdered compared to women?

Which has to do with sexual harrassment how?

Or

what proportion of men are murders compared to women?

Only one of these deals with the topic at hand

Your argument was that sexual harrassment is a women's issue because most victims are female. presumably then murder is a men's issue and should be approached from a point of view of solely opposing murder of men first and foremost as men make up the majority of murder victims?

[Ethel mermania]

DamnIt. Where were you when I needed that info.

You should hang out with me more. I've made it kind of a hobby to study human behavior.

It's a bit of an outsider looking in, but it's fascinating.

You had your oppertunity in warwick.

[Galloism]

You should hang out with me more. I've made it kind of a hobby to study human behavior.

It's a bit of an outsider looking in, but it's fascinating.

You had your oppertunity in warwick.

That was a crazy trip. Got there a day late because of that horrible weather.

[Ethel mermania]

Which has to do with sexual harrassment how?

Or

what proportion of men are murders compared to women?

Only one of these deals with the topic at hand

Your argument was that sexual harrassment is a women's issue because most victims are female. presumably then murder is a men's issue and should be approached from a point of view of solely opposing murder of men first and foremost as men make up the majority of murder victims?

An order of magnitude difference in the proportions of males and females getting harrassed.

Men also make up the vast majority of murderers, women while more than half the population committed 14.7 % of murders. Another interesting tidbit is while men who killed 80% of the time killed a stranger. 60% of the women killed a spouse, intimate aquaintense or family member.

[Ethel mermania]

You had your oppertunity in warwick.

That was a crazy trip. Got there a day late because of that horrible weather.

If you come back, let me know, warwick is driving distance for me.

[Galloism]

An order of magnitude difference in the proportions of males and females getting harrassed.

This is really an assumption. We don't know this for sure.

It might be true, or it might not actually be true at all and our social blind spot is just that big. It's not like there's no precedent for that.

[Ethel mermania]

An order of magnitude difference in the proportions of males and females getting harrassed.

This is really an assumption. We don't know this for sure.

It might be true, or it might not actually be true at all and our social blind spot is just that big. It's not like there's no precedent for that.

Tbf, I wouldn't take raiNS data as remotely reliable either. BUT every woman I know who I know well enough to have a discussion has been harrassed. I can't say that for men. Do I know men who were harrassed by women? Yes I do, but it's not nearly as pervasive as women by both men and women.


I by no means am a feminist. But women are the victims of harrassment far more often than men are, and I don't think it's unfair to treat it that way.

[Galloism]

This is really an assumption. We don't know this for sure.

It might be true, or it might not actually be true at all and our social blind spot is just that big. It's not like there's no precedent for that.

Tbf, I wouldn't take raiNS data as remotely reliable either. BUT every woman I know who I know well enough to have a discussion has been harrassed. I can't say that for men. Do I know men who were harrassed by women? Yes I do, but it's not nearly as pervasive as women by both men and women.

Again, men are trained not to see what women do as harassment, even when it very clearly is. It's roughly the same effect where men are trained not to see what women do as rape, even when it clearly is.

There's ample precedent for this.

The fact that men don't self-report harassment to you really is not indicative of what actions occurred behaviorally. We just don't know.

I by no means am a feminist. But women are the victims of harrassment far more often than men are, and I don't think it's unfair to treat it that way.

Again, this is an assumption. It may or may not be true. Our social blind spots when it comes to men being victimized by women - in literally any way - is so large, even by men themselves, that's hard to be certain. I'm not prepared to make any kind of a judgement on more or less until we have some kind of a comparative study in a closed environment with clear criteria not colored by subjective social biases.