The #MeToo Campaign (Updated)

[Magic 8 Ball]

I find it rather revealing, that criticizing this sort of campaign for not being openly inclusive is considered stupid by advocates of gay rights and women's rights. If people even hint at something sexist or homophobic, it's really bad and needs to be addressed. But male victims? Just assume you're included even though you are constantly painted as part of the problem. Very nice.

So is this going to happen every time one of these campaigns doesn't include MEN CAN BE VICTIMS TOO in neon pink blockcaps?

Signs point to yes.

[Chestaan]

>:(

Because it is a specific call to WOMEN. Because it accompanies other calls to support WOMEN. Men can maybe tag along, but women as abusers are specifically not part of the conversation.

So how does that say "males cannot be the victim of sexual assault"?

Society views men as always being up for sex with a woman. Its this attitude that leads to people "congratulating" underage boys who have been raped by women. It is not this hashtag campaign that says men cannot be victims of female abusers, it is society at large, but the hashtag campaign is indicative of the larger problem. There is no reason to ask female victims specifically to speak out about their experiences in this campaign. When it was revealed that Catholic priests had been raping altar boys for decades, the lesson wasn't that "sexual assault against males is bad", nor should it have been, rather it promoted a larger dialogue about sexual assault and institutional power.

The way society treats male DV and sexual assault victims is nothing short of appalling and the current attitudes towards these groups need to be smashed. I have been groped sexually several times against my will, but seeing the #metoo statuses that specifically asks women to speak out definitely discouraged me from participating above and beyond the usual reasons why a man would not want to post about their sexual abuse experiences.

[New Edom]

I find it rather revealing, that criticizing this sort of campaign for not being openly inclusive is considered stupid by advocates of gay rights and women's rights. If people even hint at something sexist or homophobic, it's really bad and needs to be addressed. But male victims? Just assume you're included even though you are constantly painted as part of the problem. Very nice.

So is this going to happen every time one of these campaigns doesn't include MEN CAN BE VICTIMS TOO in neon pink blockcaps?

Yes it will. Until I get what I want I will do whatever I can. I will not accept lip service. What I find utterly contemptible is that the same people who fight for inclusive language suddenly cannot be bothered in this case.

[New Edom]

So how does that say "males cannot be the victim of sexual assault"?

Society views men as always being up for sex with a woman. Its this attitude that leads to people "congratulating" underage boys who have been raped by women. It is not this hashtag campaign that says men cannot be victims of female abusers, it is society at large, but the hashtag campaign is indicative of the larger problem. There is no reason to ask female victims specifically to speak out about their experiences in this campaign. When it was revealed that Catholic priests had been raping altar boys for decades, the lesson wasn't that "sexual assault against males is bad", nor should it have been, rather it promoted a larger dialogue about sexual assault and institutional power.

The way society treats male DV and sexual assault victims is nothing short of appalling and the current attitudes towards these groups need to be smashed. I have been groped sexually several times against my will, but seeing the #metoo statuses that specifically asks women to speak out definitely discouraged me from participating above and beyond the usual reasons why a man would not want to post about their sexual abuse experiences.

Yes. That's basically a major part of the problem. And yet trying to address how it is overlooked is apparently going to ruin things for all the female victims. Apparently there is not enough compassion to go around. Trying to shift the language so that all victims can come forward is bad. Hell, even bringing up women and girls who are victims of other women is bad.

Why? Because rape culture theory. It's about patriarchy, and patriarchy is about men abusing women, and a few men who are usually gay or trans allies.

So here is the hypocrisy: it's fine to ask for inclusion for women and girls in previously male oriented occupations or organizations; it's fine to ask that trans be included in the census and other major government efforts, but a man or boy asking to not be an afterthought or a tag on in some public awareness campaign about abuse? Outrageous. Unthinkable. Just go to the back of the line.

[Ostroeuropa]

I find it rather revealing, that criticizing this sort of campaign for not being openly inclusive is considered stupid by advocates of gay rights and women's rights. If people even hint at something sexist or homophobic, it's really bad and needs to be addressed. But male victims? Just assume you're included even though you are constantly painted as part of the problem. Very nice.

So is this going to happen every time one of these campaigns doesn't include MEN CAN BE VICTIMS TOO in neon pink blockcaps?

Yeh, pretty much. We'll continue to protest and point out that these campaigns aren't inclusive until they are.

[New Edom]

So is this going to happen every time one of these campaigns doesn't include MEN CAN BE VICTIMS TOO in neon pink blockcaps?

Yeh, pretty much. We'll continue to protest and point out that these campaigns aren't inclusive until they are.

Thanks. BTW, here is a somewhat better example of a somewhat better campaign. With this one, the language is generally gender neutral and focuses on helping people rather than women in particular.

I Believe you campaign.

I'm a little cautious here--I hope that people will remember that here they are supporting friends and family but that it is not necessarily conclusive, you still have to have proof and inquiry. Also, I note that the Premier quoted that statistic I find a little vague, that only one in ten of the sex crimes are reported. (How can we truly know this) I frankly wish people didn't talk about it this way, since its distracting. I mean really, one in ten, one in a thousand, one in two, what difference does it make? It's still a bad thing to happen. It's another matter altogether if we're talking about how many applicants for shelters there are, by contrast.

Anyway: it's a better effort in my opinion, and since it was done here, there's no reason why someone could not politely point out to the celebrities backing #Metoo that they need to include men. Unless of course they're just supporting rape culture theory, in which case let's be clear: THAT is what they support, not victims in the broad sense.

[Ethel mermania]

If we define harrassment loosely, most women I know have been sexually harassed. I would not say the same about men.

[Vassenor]

Then again we've also seen people kill completely gender-neutral initiatives for not screaming MEN ARE VICTIMS TOO loud enough even though to even the most casual observer it's a clear implication.

[New Edom]

So here's a response from Meghan Murphy, a well known feminist writer in Canada:

Yes, You Too.

This poisonous harpy typically shuts down any men who wish to complain about having been subjected to sexual misconduct. Nope, it's only about women. This is one of the major voices of radical feminists in Canada. The comments are lovely too.

However, let's be fair and quote from her own keyboard:

"To be clear, #MeToo is for women. I do not want to hear a single man inserting himself into this conversation to remind women, “This happens to all genders” or to say, “This is a human issue, not a women’s issue.” Not now. We know men face assault and rape at the hands of other men. And it is awful. But right now we are talking about women, and what they experience from men, under patriarchy."

"Don’t tell me what you believe or don’t believe, as though it has any bearing on what has happened to me and every other women alive, throughout our entire lives. What I want is action."

Yes, that's right. Get in the field and do my bidding. Thank you Mistress Murphy.


quoted here:

"When can we move past describing the violence against women and move toward demanding that the perpetrators — and the people who enable them — change their behavior?"

From Lifehacker

"It’s possible that one reason men don’t speak up is that they don’t understand the gravity of the problem: They don’t think it really happens, or that it’s not a big deal, or that women are somehow actually unfairly benefitting from this kind of attention. Or even if they are confronted with crystal-clear evidence of sexual harassment—they see their boss grope their colleague, for example—they either don’t know what to do, assume she can handle it herself, or don’t care to risk their own relationships by intervening. "

Mashable

"How men should respond to #Metoo"

"While the catharsis and visibility of #MeToo is vital, what happened after #NotOkay is a disturbing reminder that women can tell their personal stories for the rest of time, but they alone cannot fundamentally transform a culture that condones and excuses behavior like sexual assault. That duty can and should fall to men."


Yeah a few media outlets like the BBC did mention male victims, but the vast majority focus on women, because the campaign IS a call to women to call out and to men to do something about it. I see this as a problem, one of values. The articles I'm citing do not support victims; they support a narrative of men oppressing women, and the Weinstein scandal being proof of that.

[New Edom]

If we define harrassment loosely, most women I know have been sexually harassed. I would not say the same about men.

Then we shouldn't support transgenderism. After all there aren't that many of them, it's a waste of money.

[New Edom]

Then again we've also seen people kill completely gender-neutral initiatives for not screaming MEN ARE VICTIMS TOO loud enough even though to even the most casual observer it's a clear implication.

If you look up, you will see my support for just such a campaign. If you consider, I have been consistently stating that I want just that.

[Vassenor]

Then again we've also seen people kill completely gender-neutral initiatives for not screaming MEN ARE VICTIMS TOO loud enough even though to even the most casual observer it's a clear implication.

If you look up, you will see my support for just such a campaign. If you consider, I have been consistently stating that I want just that.

I never said I was talking about you.

[Ostroeuropa]

If you look up, you will see my support for just such a campaign. If you consider, I have been consistently stating that I want just that.

I never said I was talking about you.

That wasn't gender neutral. The istanbul convention was gynocentric as fuck. To give you a clue, chessmistress absolutely loves it. Do your research.

No, there hasn't been noticable MRM backlash to gender neutral attempts, there's been noticable attempts from feminists to cast gynocentrism as gender neutral. Crucial difference.

is based on the understanding that violence against women is a form of gender-based violence that is committed against women because they are women.

+

–prohibiting discrimination against women, including through the use of sanctions, where appropriate;

(Not men though.)
There's plenty of sections like that.

So are you lying, or have you been lied to? Or do you honestly think the duluth model is gender neutral. Don't believe the guardian on these topics, it's a cesspool of misandry, and they'll gladly try to cast attempts at actual equality as negative to preserve their feminist readers feelings.

Then again we've also seen people kill completely gender-neutral initiatives for not screaming MEN ARE VICTIMS TOO loud enough even though to even the most casual observer it's a clear implication.

Find any actual example, if you can. But thanks for providing a reminder to one of the examples of widespread, institutionalized and international misandry, as well as serving as a data point yourself to the point that feminists are often told gynocentrism is gender neutral when it faces criticism from the MRM.
You got this idea that instanbul convention was neutral from somewhere, after all.

[Ethel mermania]

If we define harrassment loosely, most women I know have been sexually harassed. I would not say the same about men.

Then we shouldn't support transgenderism. After all there aren't that many of them, it's a waste of money.

The moon is made of green cheese.


Which has as much to do with your post, as your post did with mine.

[New Edom]

Then we shouldn't support transgenderism. After all there aren't that many of them, it's a waste of money.

The moon is made of green cheese.


Which has as much to do with your post, as your post did with mine.

Define what you're saying then. It seems like you are saying that harassment initiatives don't need to mention men because it doesn't happen enough to them.

[Ethel mermania]

The moon is made of green cheese.


Which has as much to do with your post, as your post did with mine.

Define what you're saying then. It seems like you are saying that harassment initiatives don't need to mention men because it doesn't happen enough to them.

It's not the same problem for men as it is for women.

[Longweather]

So here's a response from Meghan Murphy, a well known feminist writer in Canada:

Yes, You Too.

This poisonous harpy typically shuts down any men who wish to complain about having been subjected to sexual misconduct. Nope, it's only about women. This is one of the major voices of radical feminists in Canada. The comments are lovely too.

However, let's be fair and quote from her own keyboard:

"To be clear, #MeToo is for women. I do not want to hear a single man inserting himself into this conversation to remind women, “This happens to all genders” or to say, “This is a human issue, not a women’s issue.” Not now. We know men face assault and rape at the hands of other men. And it is awful. But right now we are talking about women, and what they experience from men, under patriarchy."

"Don’t tell me what you believe or don’t believe, as though it has any bearing on what has happened to me and every other women alive, throughout our entire lives. What I want is action."

Yes, that's right. Get in the field and do my bidding. Thank you Mistress Murphy.


quoted here:

"When can we move past describing the violence against women and move toward demanding that the perpetrators — and the people who enable them — change their behavior?"

From Lifehacker

"It’s possible that one reason men don’t speak up is that they don’t understand the gravity of the problem: They don’t think it really happens, or that it’s not a big deal, or that women are somehow actually unfairly benefitting from this kind of attention. Or even if they are confronted with crystal-clear evidence of sexual harassment—they see their boss grope their colleague, for example—they either don’t know what to do, assume she can handle it herself, or don’t care to risk their own relationships by intervening. "

Mashable

"How men should respond to #Metoo"

"While the catharsis and visibility of #MeToo is vital, what happened after #NotOkay is a disturbing reminder that women can tell their personal stories for the rest of time, but they alone cannot fundamentally transform a culture that condones and excuses behavior like sexual assault. That duty can and should fall to men."


Yeah a few media outlets like the BBC did mention male victims, but the vast majority focus on women, because the campaign IS a call to women to call out and to men to do something about it. I see this as a problem, one of values. The articles I'm citing do not support victims; they support a narrative of men oppressing women, and the Weinstein scandal being proof of that.

You know, sometimes after reading things like this I think the reason men don't have issues like this is that we're raised to believe it isn't an issue when it applies to us. Then things go all pear-shaped when we apply it to others.

[New Edom]

Define what you're saying then. It seems like you are saying that harassment initiatives don't need to mention men because it doesn't happen enough to them.

It's not the same problem for men as it is for women.

Why not?

[New Edom]

So here's a response from Meghan Murphy, a well known feminist writer in Canada:

Yes, You Too.

This poisonous harpy typically shuts down any men who wish to complain about having been subjected to sexual misconduct. Nope, it's only about women. This is one of the major voices of radical feminists in Canada. The comments are lovely too.

However, let's be fair and quote from her own keyboard:

"To be clear, #MeToo is for women. I do not want to hear a single man inserting himself into this conversation to remind women, “This happens to all genders” or to say, “This is a human issue, not a women’s issue.” Not now. We know men face assault and rape at the hands of other men. And it is awful. But right now we are talking about women, and what they experience from men, under patriarchy."

"Don’t tell me what you believe or don’t believe, as though it has any bearing on what has happened to me and every other women alive, throughout our entire lives. What I want is action."

Yes, that's right. Get in the field and do my bidding. Thank you Mistress Murphy.


quoted here:

"When can we move past describing the violence against women and move toward demanding that the perpetrators — and the people who enable them — change their behavior?"

From Lifehacker

"It’s possible that one reason men don’t speak up is that they don’t understand the gravity of the problem: They don’t think it really happens, or that it’s not a big deal, or that women are somehow actually unfairly benefitting from this kind of attention. Or even if they are confronted with crystal-clear evidence of sexual harassment—they see their boss grope their colleague, for example—they either don’t know what to do, assume she can handle it herself, or don’t care to risk their own relationships by intervening. "

Mashable

"How men should respond to #Metoo"

"While the catharsis and visibility of #MeToo is vital, what happened after #NotOkay is a disturbing reminder that women can tell their personal stories for the rest of time, but they alone cannot fundamentally transform a culture that condones and excuses behavior like sexual assault. That duty can and should fall to men."


Yeah a few media outlets like the BBC did mention male victims, but the vast majority focus on women, because the campaign IS a call to women to call out and to men to do something about it. I see this as a problem, one of values. The articles I'm citing do not support victims; they support a narrative of men oppressing women, and the Weinstein scandal being proof of that.

You know, sometimes after reading things like this I think the reason men don't have issues like this is that we're raised to believe it isn't an issue when it applies to us. Then things go all pear-shaped when we apply it to others.

What do you mean exactly? I'm not entirely familiar with that expression.

[New Edom]

Egalitarian here. A woman also. Since this campaign is an initiative stemming from the Weinstein cases, I don't think it's about only saving or protecting women. In point of fact, I have seen a large number of men using the hashtag too in social media, like Facebook and IG. And been encouraged by others, including women, to break the silence and speak up about their sexual harassment experiences.

I was searching through and found your post. Here's the thing: that is your interpretation of it. Some others do the same, and while that is their choice, my concern is about the bigger picture. I am reposting some media examples, shown below, as why I am concerned.

So here's a response from Meghan Murphy, a well known feminist writer in Canada:

Yes, You Too.

This poisonous harpy typically shuts down any men who wish to complain about having been subjected to sexual misconduct. Nope, it's only about women. This is one of the major voices of radical feminists in Canada. The comments are lovely too.

However, let's be fair and quote from her own keyboard:

"To be clear, #MeToo is for women. I do not want to hear a single man inserting himself into this conversation to remind women, “This happens to all genders” or to say, “This is a human issue, not a women’s issue.” Not now. We know men face assault and rape at the hands of other men. And it is awful. But right now we are talking about women, and what they experience from men, under patriarchy."

"Don’t tell me what you believe or don’t believe, as though it has any bearing on what has happened to me and every other women alive, throughout our entire lives. What I want is action."

Yes, that's right. Get in the field and do my bidding. Thank you Mistress Murphy.


quoted here:

"When can we move past describing the violence against women and move toward demanding that the perpetrators — and the people who enable them — change their behavior?"

From Lifehacker

"It’s possible that one reason men don’t speak up is that they don’t understand the gravity of the problem: They don’t think it really happens, or that it’s not a big deal, or that women are somehow actually unfairly benefitting from this kind of attention. Or even if they are confronted with crystal-clear evidence of sexual harassment—they see their boss grope their colleague, for example—they either don’t know what to do, assume she can handle it herself, or don’t care to risk their own relationships by intervening. "

Mashable

"How men should respond to #Metoo"

"While the catharsis and visibility of #MeToo is vital, what happened after #NotOkay is a disturbing reminder that women can tell their personal stories for the rest of time, but they alone cannot fundamentally transform a culture that condones and excuses behavior like sexual assault. That duty can and should fall to men."


Yeah a few media outlets like the BBC did mention male victims, but the vast majority focus on women, because the campaign IS a call to women to call out and to men to do something about it. I see this as a problem, one of values. The articles I'm citing do not support victims; they support a narrative of men oppressing women, and the Weinstein scandal being proof of that.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

Boy howdy, New Edom - once in a while, sure would be nice if you were to, for a switch say, not lump all us women in together into that whole 'poisonous harpy/heartless witch/awful human being/out to ruin men' category. Just for a novel take on things, if nothing else.

Yes. There's awful women out there. And there's awful men. And awful whatever gender you'd like to insert here. There are awful people in the world - surprise! Awfulness isn't gender-specific. And for any one point, you're going to have some out there dead-set on being a ruiner and again, being generally awful, simply because they can. Suggestion? Stand up to it when you see it, and get over the idea that its all about you and your somewhat misguided opinions. You've had bad things happen. You're not alone in this. That's what the hashtag campaign is supposed to be about - and some similarly-misguided people shouldn't be allowed to ruin that. They have their opinions, other's have differing ones. We all do. Opinions needn't be a crime, even when they can be rather abhorrent. But they also shouldn't be used to put an entire group into the bin either.

So some are participating. Does it help them speak out, feel more empowered, not so alone? Then more power to them. Don't need you bitching about them any more than they need the bitchy ones whining about who can or can't use a simple hashtag to denote unity in purpose, spirit, and support.

[Ethel mermania]

It's not the same problem for men as it is for women.

Why not?

What proportion of men have been sexually harassed compared to women?

[New Edom]

Why not?

What proportion of men have been sexually harassed compared to women?

Here are RAINN's statistics:

"One in 9 girls and 1 in 53 boys under the age of 18 experience sexual abuse or assault at the hands of an adult.3"


"Millions of men in the United States have been victims of rape.

As of 1998, 2.78 million men in the U.S. had been victims of attempted or completed rape.5
About 3% of American men—or 1 in 33—have experienced an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime.5
1 out of every 10 rape victims are male.8​"

Even if you take these figures to be exaggerated, it suggests that there are enough boys this happens to to make it a concern. Given that there have also been studies that suggest that boys and men are less likely to report, there may be more, we're not sure. In my own city, when they opened a men's counselling center for this purpose, some were skeptical that it even needed to be opened, and they were shocked to find a big waiting list for the resources.

[New Edom]

Boy howdy, New Edom - once in a while, sure would be nice if you were to, for a switch say, not lump all us women in together into that whole 'poisonous harpy/heartless witch/awful human being/out to ruin men' category. Just for a novel take on things, if nothing else.

Yes. There's awful women out there. And there's awful men. And awful whatever gender you'd like to insert here. There are awful people in the world - surprise! Awfulness isn't gender-specific. And for any one point, you're going to have some out there dead-set on being a ruiner and again, being generally awful, simply because they can. Suggestion? Stand up to it when you see it, and get over the idea that its all about you and your somewhat misguided opinions. You've had bad things happen. You're not alone in this. That's what the hashtag campaign is supposed to be about - and some similarly-misguided people shouldn't be allowed to ruin that. They have their opinions, other's have differing ones. We all do. Opinions needn't be a crime, even when they can be rather abhorrent. But they also shouldn't be used to put an entire group into the bin either.

So some are participating. Does it help them speak out, feel more empowered, not so alone? Then more power to them. Don't need you bitching about them any more than they need the bitchy ones whining about who can or can't use a simple hashtag to denote unity in purpose, spirit, and support.

Nathicana: I am not blaming WOMEN for this. Show me where I said that. What I am complaining about is how the problem is being framed.

Maybe you're one of these people who just has a knack for brushing concerns aside. Good for you.

There are some examples below of people framing the problem. This will in turn have an effect on public policy and public opinion.

Yes, You Too.

This poisonous harpy typically shuts down any men who wish to complain about having been subjected to sexual misconduct. Nope, it's only about women. This is one of the major voices of radical feminists in Canada. The comments are lovely too.

However, let's be fair and quote from her own keyboard:

"To be clear, #MeToo is for women. I do not want to hear a single man inserting himself into this conversation to remind women, “This happens to all genders” or to say, “This is a human issue, not a women’s issue.” Not now. We know men face assault and rape at the hands of other men. And it is awful. But right now we are talking about women, and what they experience from men, under patriarchy."

"Don’t tell me what you believe or don’t believe, as though it has any bearing on what has happened to me and every other women alive, throughout our entire lives. What I want is action."

Yes, that's right. Get in the field and do my bidding. Thank you Mistress Murphy.


quoted here:

"When can we move past describing the violence against women and move toward demanding that the perpetrators — and the people who enable them — change their behavior?"

From Lifehacker

"It’s possible that one reason men don’t speak up is that they don’t understand the gravity of the problem: They don’t think it really happens, or that it’s not a big deal, or that women are somehow actually unfairly benefitting from this kind of attention. Or even if they are confronted with crystal-clear evidence of sexual harassment—they see their boss grope their colleague, for example—they either don’t know what to do, assume she can handle it herself, or don’t care to risk their own relationships by intervening. "

Mashable

"How men should respond to #Metoo"

"While the catharsis and visibility of #MeToo is vital, what happened after #NotOkay is a disturbing reminder that women can tell their personal stories for the rest of time, but they alone cannot fundamentally transform a culture that condones and excuses behavior like sexual assault. That duty can and should fall to men."


Yeah a few media outlets like the BBC did mention male victims, but the vast majority focus on women, because the campaign IS a call to women to call out and to men to do something about it. I see this as a problem, one of values. The articles I'm citing do not support victims; they support a narrative of men oppressing women, and the Weinstein scandal being proof of that.

[Ethel mermania]

What proportion of men have been sexually harassed compared to women?

Here are RAINN's statistics:

"One in 9 girls and 1 in 53 boys under the age of 18 experience sexual abuse or assault at the hands of an adult.3"


"Millions of men in the United States have been victims of rape.

As of 1998, 2.78 million men in the U.S. had been victims of attempted or completed rape.5
About 3% of American men—or 1 in 33—have experienced an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime.5
1 out of every 10 rape victims are male.8​"

Even if you take these figures to be exaggerated, it suggests that there are enough boys this happens to to make it a concern. Given that there have also been studies that suggest that boys and men are less likely to report, there may be more, we're not sure. In my own city, when they opened a men's counselling center for this purpose, some were skeptical that it even needed to be opened, and they were shocked to find a big waiting list for the resources.

Harrassed, not assaulted.

And if we were to speak of assault and use these numbers. (I don't believe them either).

The difference between 1 in 9, and in 53 is an order of magnitude difference which is pretty severe, aND might require a different approach to the issue.