Infantry Discussion Thread part 11: Gallas Razor edition.

[Kassaran]

What would kill a person if he get shot on left shoulder, thighs, and/or head, between the peak and temple?

From MilRealism. Could Grandmaster Puzikas explain?

Angle of impacts needed, caliber of round and velocity or relative general distances involved alongside the weapons used is needed also I assume. Type of round would be needed, to calculate the ballistics of the round after impact (hollow-point will act differently than ball), and additionally the overall health of the individual in question. We should actually make 'Puzslips' a thing.

Conceptual PuzSlip^TM
What ails your hypothetical patient today?
-Please consult our general list of injuries for further specification.
Specify regions of the body where injuries hypothetically occurred?
-Please consult our diagram for determining the location of the injury, and specify the angle or approach the injury has been inflicted upon said area.
What instrument was hypothetically used to inflict the injuries?
-Specify the type of instrument used and the distance or extent to which it was used.
What is the general age, sex, and health of the hypothetical patient?
-Preferably done in that order; Age, Sex, Health in terms of fit being average.

Up for edits, but it chalks up to be something like:

Conceptual PuzSlip^TM
What ails your hypothetical patient today?
-Over-stretched Laceration; Rib Fracture of 3^rd Rib; Traumatic Pneumothorax of the Right Lung
Specify regions of the body where injuries hypothetically occurred?
-Chest; Right Side Front; Descending through 3rd Rib and exiting back of chest through the 5th Intercostal space.
What instrument was hypothetically used to inflict the injuries?
-AK-47; 300-450m; 7.62x39mm M43 Caseless
What is the general age, sex, and health of the hypothetical patient?
-20 yr old Male; Fit and of average Weight/BMI.

[Puzikas]

left shoulder

Severance of the Subclavian possible
Perforation of the plural space less possible
Hemorrhage death. Time frame varies. One of the more painful locations to be shot due to the abundance of nerves in the suprascapular region.

thighs

Femoral severance. Difficult bleed to stop, similarly heavy. More likely to kill.

between the peak and temple

Traumatic brain injury. Loss of CNS function and depression and/or cessation of vital signs as a result of loss of neurological connections. It's like someone hitting a light switch.

[Kassaran]

Hey Puz? Under what conditions have you, or your fellow practicioners, ever seen someone survive a gunshot wound to the head that should 'technically' have killed them for all the chances given, but the slightest stroke of luck in their favor kept them alive? I've heard of plenty of people surviving wounds to the head, to include an Army MP who got stabbed through the side of the head with a kitchen knife by some insurgent in Afghanistan (IIRC).

[Puzikas]

I haven't really
Usually when people get shot in the head they die or they are extremely close to death and expire shortly after arriving
I've seen medical cases but I have none of my own and my ED hasn't had any cases like that in awhile, the last non-Self inflicted GSW (that penetrated) to the head we had that survived was in 2010 or so
One of the only GSWs to the head that was a survival was a self inflicted shotgun blast and the patient later died of respiratory compromise because of where the shot went (basically only in the facial region with minimal damage to the cranial space)

[Kassaran]

I haven't really
Usually when people get shot in the head they die or they are extremely close to death and expire shortly after arriving
I've seen medical cases but I have none of my own and my ED hasn't had any cases like that in awhile, the last non-Self inflicted GSW (that penetrated) to the head we had that survived was in 2010 or so
One of the only GSWs to the head that was a survival was a self inflicted shotgun blast and the patient later died of respiratory compromise because of where the shot went (basically only in the facial region with minimal damage to the cranial space)

If that was filmed at all, I believe I've seen the footage of that. If not, I've also seen the after-effects (through powerpoint of course, but from what I've heard I'm soon to see accidents like it in person) of accidental 30mm shells detonating due to accidental (or perhaps rather intended, but without understanding the consequences) exposure to an appropriate, or even inappropriate, amount of voltage. Nevermind the fact that we always get briefed on electrical burns, that's apparently a big thing in aviation and they have tons of signs up around the hangars warning us not to endanger ourselves because of them. On that note, I want to ask a related question.

Electricity... injuries... my mind drifts to the overused meme that is Nikolai Tesla and them zap-towers. How many additional pylons would one need to build to have made them work in battle, or moreover I need to ask why they weren't ever very effective in the first place?

[Puzikas]

You haven't I assure you.
Electrical and radiological burns are my favourite. Burns in general are extremely fascinating. Or not it for the fact that I would need to study Dermatology in Far More depth than I actually care to, I might have gone into that area specifically to work with burns. I suppose the only recompense of that is that now I get to look at gunshot wound stabbings and car crashes, which makes my life more like a metal album.

[Fordorsia]

Electrical and radiological burns are my favourite.

Classic Puz

[Theodosiya]

Well, that means I'll have a painful & horrible death...

Airsoft skirmish on Sunday, and those are the places where I got hit. Most of the time, the foes are using M4/M16, or other 5.56mm NATO firearms.

[Allanea]

You haven't I assure you.
Electrical and radiological burns are my favourite. Burns in general are extremely fascinating. Or not it for the fact that I would need to study Dermatology in Far More depth than I actually care to, I might have gone into that area specifically to work with burns. I suppose the only recompense of that is that now I get to look at gunshot wound stabbings and car crashes, which makes my life more like a metal album.

So Puz.

What is a book you'd recommend for a layman to improve one's writing about combat injuries? (Either the experinece of doctors and aid personnel, or the experiences of the people being wounded)?

[NeuPolska]

I've reserved my MOS as Satellite Communication Systems Operator/Maintainer, I ship out Halloween. I also signed up for the 2 weeks of Airborne training, and I'll be active duty for six years.

[Puzikas]

Hard one. Most of my medical texts are simultaneously extremely expensive and limited print, and virtually inaccessible to the layman as they virtually never reference things in terms that would be familiar to someone who hasn't taken A&P I and II level classes.

The Human Body in Health & Disease, By Gary Thibodeau and Kevin T Patton (et al) is a staple of basically every medical course. I think everyone from MAs to MDs have to read it at one point.

The AAOS-The Orange book-Emergency Care And Transportation Of The Sick And Injured is used by every EMT and AEMT in America, Canada, Australia, and South Africa (with local copies) and is generally considered the standard by which all first responders courses are modeled. It's written so a layman, a person with zero medical or technical knowledge, can read it and obtain an understanding of emergency care and treatment of the sick and injured.

Like personal accounts? Some of the Greek retellings of war are impressively well detailed and accurate. I don't know of any like personal accounts or books that detail war injuries well because most people writing them prefer not to recount or simply can't put into words the horrors they witnessed, or are working from primary sources that have the same issues.

[Fordorsia]

Some of the Greek retellings of war are impressively well detailed and accurate.

Any good examples?

[Puzikas]

Herodotus immediately springs to mind, as he was likely involved in battle and much of his retellings of the wars of the Peloponnese probably include the fact he understood what these injuries were like.

Polybius is a personal favourite of mine.

[Gallia-]

I've reserved my MOS as Satellite Communication Systems Operator/Maintainer, I ship out Halloween. I also signed up for the 2 weeks of Airborne training, and I'll be active duty for six years.

Mb in 5 years you will be working with your counterparts in the PLAAF because they seem very interested in Satellite Communication Systems.

Herodotus immediately springs to mind, as he was likely involved in battle and much of his retellings of the wars of the Peloponnese probably include the fact he understood what these injuries were like.

Polybius is a personal favourite of mine.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... pter%3D162

Hard one. Most of my medical texts are simultaneously extremely expensive and limited print, and virtually inaccessible to the layman as they virtually never reference things in terms that would be familiar to someone who hasn't taken A&P I and II level classes.

The Human Body in Health & Disease, By Gary Thibodeau and Kevin T Patton (et al) is a staple of basically every medical course. I think everyone from MAs to MDs have to read it at one point.

The AAOS-The Orange book-Emergency Care And Transportation Of The Sick And Injured is used by every EMT and AEMT in America, Canada, Australia, and South Africa (with local copies) and is generally considered the standard by which all first responders courses are modeled. It's written so a layman, a person with zero medical or technical knowledge, can read it and obtain an understanding of emergency care and treatment of the sick and injured.

Like personal accounts? Some of the Greek retellings of war are impressively well detailed and accurate. I don't know of any like personal accounts or books that detail war injuries well because most people writing them prefer not to recount or simply can't put into words the horrors they witnessed, or are working from primary sources that have the same issues.

Bierce seems to do OK in Chickamauga?

e: Although unf. it's probably impossible to discern how much Bierce is drawing on real life exp. and how much is fictional in his stories, with the possible exception of one.

[Puzikas]

I'll be honest it's been a v long time since I've picked up a book that's not either a reference text on medicine/biology/chemistry or a book on like, war or small arms or tanks or smthng

The last book I read that wasn't one of these was The Histories I think.
In 2013.

[Kazarogkai]

From MilRealism. Could Grandmaster Puzikas explain?

Angle of impacts needed, caliber of round and velocity or relative general distances involved alongside the weapons used is needed also I assume. Type of round would be needed, to calculate the ballistics of the round after impact (hollow-point will act differently than ball), and additionally the overall health of the individual in question. We should actually make 'Puzslips' a thing.

Conceptual PuzSlip^TM
What ails your hypothetical patient today?
-Please consult our general list of injuries for further specification.
Specify regions of the body where injuries hypothetically occurred?
-Please consult our diagram for determining the location of the injury, and specify the angle or approach the injury has been inflicted upon said area.
What instrument was hypothetically used to inflict the injuries?
-Specify the type of instrument used and the distance or extent to which it was used.
What is the general age, sex, and health of the hypothetical patient?
-Preferably done in that order; Age, Sex, Health in terms of fit being average.

Up for edits, but it chalks up to be something like:

Conceptual PuzSlip^TM
What ails your hypothetical patient today?
-Over-stretched Laceration; Rib Fracture of 3^rd Rib; Traumatic Pneumothorax of the Right Lung
Specify regions of the body where injuries hypothetically occurred?
-Chest; Right Side Front; Descending through 3rd Rib and exiting back of chest through the 5th Intercostal space.
What instrument was hypothetically used to inflict the injuries?
-AK-47; 300-450m; 7.62x39mm M43 Caseless
What is the general age, sex, and health of the hypothetical patient?
-20 yr old Male; Fit and of average Weight/BMI.

LOL

For some reason this has inspired me a bit. Scenario:

This is at the tail end of the confederate wars which where fought in Kazarogkai in the early to mid 1300s. The scene is of a suspected rebel being executed by members of the central army and is being done in a small clearing in eastern savanna of the Kaza Mainland. It is a bit over 100 degrees or around 40 C, the humidity is somewhere in the 80% range, and it is during the rainy season though there is only a slight drizzle. The execution in question is performed via stabbing the individual in the gut right above his navel with a traditional spear and then hanging him by his feet from a tree, he is then left to die. So the question is how long would he survive under these circumstances; and two what could be done to potentially save him assuming immediate attention both in the historical time frame or with modern methods?

Conceptual PuzSlip^TM
What ails your hypothetical patient today?
- A good thrust to the gut from a spear, made it 12 inches deep before being pulled out. Non serrated straight blade.
Specify regions of the body where injuries hypothetically occurred?
- Right above the individuals navel hypothetically the internal organs were hit.
What instrument was hypothetically used to inflict the injuries?
- The spear in question mind you is what is translated from Kaza as the man spear due to it's length being the average height of a full grown male, 5'0, with a mild steel blade that measures 1 foot in length and 2 inch in width at it's widest, though it displays heavy tapering near the end measuring less than 1/8 of an inch by the end, and a simple counterweight on the other end to balance it out. The thrust was performed with both of the individuals arms for extra leverage.
What is the general age, sex, and health of the hypothetical patient?
- Young male maybe about 14 of similar height to a man in the region at around 4'10, rather underweight though considering the conditions. Las meal was 2 days ago and consisted of only about 500 calories of steamed rice, chopped yams, and bananas with a cup of goat milk.

[Puzikas]

Just let him die any injury to the abdomen in an era before any kind of antiseptic was introduced would turn spetic and kill them basically.

The Greeks hot wine was the right way to go.

[Gallia-]

I'll be honest it's been a v long time since I've picked up a book that's not either a reference text on medicine/biology/chemistry or a book on like, war or small arms or tanks or smthng

The last book I read that wasn't one of these was The Histories I think.
In 2013.

It's a good book if Danton's statements have anything to say about it.

Amasis is a badass who defeated a real life moron with a fart, after all.

[Kazarogkai]

Just let him die any injury to the abdomen in an era before any kind of antiseptic was introduced would turn spetic and kill them basically.

The Greeks hot wine was the right way to go.

So in ancient times even if his homies got to him instantly he's pretty much dead, and I imagine rather quickly. So what if say this was your patient in a modern setting and you had been also been able to more or less get to him instantly and set him up on an operating table, what would you do?

[-AlEmAnNiA-]

able to more or less get to him instantly and set him up on an operating table, what would you do?

give him stuff to make him feel better, duh

[Puzikas]

Just let him die any injury to the abdomen in an era before any kind of antiseptic was introduced would turn spetic and kill them basically.

The Greeks hot wine was the right way to go.

So in ancient times even if his homies got to him instantly he's pretty much dead, and I imagine rather quickly. So what if say this was your patient in a modern setting and you had been also been able to more or less get to him instantly and set him up on an operating table, what would you do?

Stop hemorrhage, inspect the organs for damage and fix as adjudicated, irrigate and cleanse the cavity, close wound.

[Fordorsia]

So in ancient times even if his homies got to him instantly he's pretty much dead, and I imagine rather quickly. So what if say this was your patient in a modern setting and you had been also been able to more or less get to him instantly and set him up on an operating table, what would you do?

Stop hemorrhage, inspect the organs for damage and fix as adjudicated, irrigate and cleanse the cavity, close wound.

Every one of my legionaries is trained to do all this. Modern medicine is a sham

[Kazarogkai]

So in ancient times even if his homies got to him instantly he's pretty much dead, and I imagine rather quickly. So what if say this was your patient in a modern setting and you had been also been able to more or less get to him instantly and set him up on an operating table, what would you do?

Stop hemorrhage, inspect the organs for damage and fix as adjudicated, irrigate and cleanse the cavity, close wound.

Thanks. Survivable ish, in a modern context, but should be a reasonable execution method for the time period is what I am more or less getting so cool.

[Western Pacific Territories]

Conceptual PuzSlip^TM
What ails your hypothetical patient today?
-Bullet wound.
Specify regions of the body where injuries hypothetically occurred?
-Bullet entered through left satorious, exiting through left biceps femorius. Severed left deep femorial artery and vein, barely missing left sciatic nerve. Patient applied gauze dressing onto the wound and spent about five minutes in the field afterwards before being found by medics.
What instrument was hypothetically used to inflict the injuries?
- 7.92×57mm Mauser - M1918A2 BAR.
What is the general age, sex, and health of the hypothetical patient?
-25 year old Arab male, performing military service (so quite fit). In decent health - though about as decent as you can expect from a Arabian soldier eating shitty MREs out of a tin can.

Fuck it. Why not?

[Dostanuot Loj]

Stop hemorrhage, inspect the organs for damage and fix as adjudicated, irrigate and cleanse the cavity, close wound.

Every one of my legionaries is trained to do all this. Modern medicine is a sham

Most ancient warfare generally depended on close cohesion of units. In the classical period especially, even if the medical knowledge and technology existed to treat most wounds that would today not be fatal, the actual requirements of combat would prevent it.

If somebody drops in a phalanx, for example, his comrades must close his spot and keep pushing. The wounded will probably be trampled by his own side to be honest. This is because the continuity of the phalanx was above all else, and defeat came when it was broken. This is also why when the guy drops, none of his buddies will stop what they are doing to help him, because by doing so they effectively break the phalanx, and provide the enemy opportunity to break them.