Catalonia Megathread: Should Catalonia Separate From Spain?

[Keshiland]

You guys are litterally saying that NATO will got to war against any nation that recognises Catalonia as independent and that is hyperbole. If our nations are so sensitive that a recognition of a result that we don't like results in war then I feel sorry for the world.

No I didn't say that. I said NATO would go to war with Russia, if Russia supported Spanish rebels. It has nothing to do with the election results at all or anything of the sort. I'm only talking about Russian involvement, and apparently you can't see that.

oh okay. So if other nations accept the outcome and give recognition then nothing will happen sweet come on rest of the world.

[Thermodolia]

No I didn't say that. I said NATO would go to war with Russia, if Russia supported Spanish rebels. It has nothing to do with the election results at all or anything of the sort. I'm only talking about Russian involvement, and apparently you can't see that.

oh okay. So if other nations accept the outcome and give recognition then nothing will happen sweet come on rest of the world.

No that will only happen if Spain agrees to let Catalonia go. What will most likely happen is that Catalonia declares independence and then nothing happens because nobody outside of Spain gives a shit.

[Socialist Czechia]

I'm not being edgy and hysterical I'm being realistic. Spain is a NATO member state Russia will not explicitly support Spanish rebels what so ever. It wouldn't be a diplomatic insult it would be bordering on war.

eh. clarification. diplomatic recognition is not automatic direct military support. where i said it means russian soldiers or weapons?

how many time western world recognized some state, but offered mostly 'spiritual support'?

so no, recognition and 'spiritual support' by troll president doesn't mean war. really

[Lord of The Rings]

Looks like Spain needs some lessons on international rights. This oppressive behaviour shouldn't be tolerated within the International community. The right to self-determination should be uphold.

[Thermodolia]

I'm not being edgy and hysterical I'm being realistic. Spain is a NATO member state Russia will not explicitly support Spanish rebels what so ever. It wouldn't be a diplomatic insult it would be bordering on war.

eh. clarification. diplomatic recognition is not automatic direct military support. where i said it means russian soldiers or weapons?

how many time western world recognized some state, but offered mostly 'spiritual support'?

so no, recognition and 'spiritual support' by troll president doesn't mean war. really

Putin doesn't troll. He makes calculated decisions. I didn't say that Russia recognizing Catalonia as an independent nation would be automatically war. I said that it would be borderline close to war. Relations between Russia and NATO would very quickly sour and become extremely tense. Something no side wants, especially Russia. Because it's entirely likely that NATO will respond with economic sanctions on Russia. Something they really don't need.

It would only be War if they Russians economically supported Catalonia

[Thermodolia]

Looks like Spain needs some lessons on international rights. This oppressive behaviour shouldn't be tolerated within the International community. The right to self-determination should be uphold.

No they don't the international community doesn't give two shits

[The Novakian Empire]

The spaniards wouldn't allow it. If the referendum goes ahead, they probably won't respect its results.
And that would be juuust great.

[Thermodolia]

The spaniards wouldn't allow it. If the referendum goes ahead, they probably won't respect its results.
And that would be juuust great.

And why? It's no different than if the US congress said hell no to California or Texas wanting to become independent

[Catlander]

Looks like Spain needs some lessons on international rights. This oppressive behaviour shouldn't be tolerated within the International community. The right to self-determination should be uphold.

I agree it

[Kramania]

Uh, no. Europe doesn't need more Balkanization just because some pretend countries want independence.

[Kramania]

No. Catalans owe their allegiance to His Catholic Majesty the King of Spain. Catalan separatists are traitors to the Spanish Crown. They have no right to secede.

Catalans "owe" nothing to no-one because someone happens to be Catholic and inbred as fuck as most "Majesties" go. Royalty deserves in my opinion, as the Catalans put it; a "Bon cop de falç!"

This is why Europe is dying.

[Collatis]

I don't really know enough about Catalonia to say what would be best for them, but I generally favor self-determination and will support the results of the referendum.

[Bluelight-R006]

I would like it for Catalonia to be a new country. I'd like new countries to pop up. Idk why but it's nice. Too bad that this is just a poll and that Catalonia won't actually become a country even if the majority was a yes.

[Socialist Czechia]

Uh, no. Europe doesn't need more Balkanization just because some pretend countries want independence.

Last two hundred years is the proof, that balkanization is normal process. Leniency or tyranny, there are still more and more new countries and autonomous regions.

So, in the long term, return to times of HRE and dozens city states is most likely, with barbarians in Asia using them as playthings

[The New California Republic]

oh okay. So if other nations accept the outcome and give recognition then nothing will happen sweet come on rest of the world.

What will most likely happen is that Catalonia declares independence and then nothing happens because nobody outside of Spain gives a shit.

The only people outside of Spain that care about Catalan independence are the pro-independence crowd here in Scotland. They both look to each other as models of declaring independence from an existing European country. I have no love for the pro-Scottish independence movement or their people here in Scotland. I vividly remember the lead up to the Referendum in 2014, the violence. People were being attacked in the streets, and families were being split by their opinions. 99% of the violence was perpetrated by pro-independence people against pro-union people. The pro-independence people set up multiple stalls on a single street, and would intimidate passers-by, by questioning them on which way they would vote, and shout at them if they dared say they were going to vote against independence. It was disgusting. I actually started avoiding certain streets, because of the pro-independence thugs. So when the Scottish National Party (SNP) start saying that they want a second referendum (even though they specifically said it was a "once in a lifetime event"), I just shudder at the thought. So I suppose my opinion of Catalan independence is tainted by my experiences of a similar movement here in Scotland.

[Socialist Czechia]

Such things are usual during 'glorious' national liberation, though. Do you think Czechs didn't beat pro-Austrian citizens in the streets or didn't destroyed monuments and symbols of hated old regime?
Sure, collapse of Habsburg realm and defeat in the war made it worse, as always in such circumstances.

When we faced open rebellion from German-speaking borderland population, wanting to rather join Germany, our Legionaires and gendarmes ended it quickly, with full Allied approval, sometimes with French officers in charge, as we had few truly loyal officers, most of them in Russian battles during the time.



In case of Catalonia though, I highly doubt Spanish politicians have balls to use 'any means necessary' to pacify the region. And I can't imagine they would ask any other NATO country to help them with own rebellion: they would lose any face remaining.
Because how the hell you can impose rule of law to people who don't respect your laws and sovereignity over region anymore?

If Madrid wants them to respect their autoritah, they MUST show/use TANKS and MACHINE GUNS. No other way, if people already don't care about threats from police or courts and laugh on the central Government.

[Thermodolia]

Such things are usual during 'glorious' national liberation, though. Do you think Czechs didn't beat pro-Austrian citizens in the streets or didn't destroyed monuments and symbols of hated old regime?
Sure, collapse of Habsburg realm and defeat in the war made it worse, as always in such circumstances.

When we faced open rebellion from German-speaking borderland population, wanting to rather join Germany, our Legionaires and gendarmes ended it quickly, with full Allied approval, sometimes with French officers in charge, as we had few truly loyal officers, most of them in Russian battles during the time.



In case of Catalonia though, I highly doubt Spanish politicians have balls to use 'any means necessary' to pacify the region. And I can't imagine they would ask any other NATO country to help them with own rebellion: they would lose any face remaining.
Because how the hell you can impose rule of law to people who don't respect your laws and sovereignity over region anymore?

If Madrid wants them to respect their autoritah, they MUST show/use TANKS and MACHINE GUNS. No other way, if people already don't care about threats from police or courts and laugh on the central Government.

Um the military? Force? Security forces?

[Socialist Czechia]

Madrid already rejected use of force, therefore, use of regular Armed Forces, imposing Martial Law or approving some kind of Enabling Act to purge the region.

I must use word: pussies. (sorry, just for this one time, but I think it's proper word)

[Chestaan]

There is no consistent democratic argument for forcing Catalonia to remain in Spain when it doesn't want to. Appeals to the constitution are weak, as strangely enough a lot has changed since 1978 and there are a huge number of new Catalan voters that had no say in 1978.

I doubt those who appeal to the constitution would defend the special position that the Catholic church was previously afforded to them in the Irish constitution despite the Irish people voting for it.

[The of Japan]

There is no consistent democratic argument for forcing Catalonia to remain in Spain when it doesn't want to. Appeals to the constitution are weak, as strangely enough a lot has changed since 1978 and there are a huge number of new Catalan voters that had no say in 1978.

I doubt those who appeal to the constitution would defend the special position that the Catholic church was previously afforded to them in the Irish constitution despite the Irish people voting for it.

lets be realistic, who is going to back catalonia other than basque terrorists and "maybe" Russia?

[The of Japan]

Madrid already rejected use of force, therefore, use of regular Armed Forces, imposing Martial Law or approving some kind of Enabling Act to purge the region.

I must use word: pussies. (sorry, just for this one time, but I think it's proper word)

maybe not now, but they sure as hell will if catalonia tries to secede

[Thermodolia]

There is no consistent democratic argument for forcing Catalonia to remain in Spain when it doesn't want to. Appeals to the constitution are weak, as strangely enough a lot has changed since 1978 and there are a huge number of new Catalan voters that had no say in 1978.

I doubt those who appeal to the constitution would defend the special position that the Catholic church was previously afforded to them in the Irish constitution despite the Irish people voting for it.

lets be realistic, who is going to back catalonia other than basque terrorists and "maybe" Russia?

Russia ain't going to do shit.

[Illiberalism]

Wanting to establish a separate nation on the basis of culture and language? One could say the Catalonians want....... an ethnostate.

[Geilinor]

There is no consistent democratic argument for forcing Catalonia to remain in Spain when it doesn't want to. Appeals to the constitution are weak, as strangely enough a lot has changed since 1978 and there are a huge number of new Catalan voters that had no say in 1978.

I doubt those who appeal to the constitution would defend the special position that the Catholic church was previously afforded to them in the Irish constitution despite the Irish people voting for it.

Catalans are divided on the legality and necessity of a referendum on independence. The democratic argument is that it is not worth dividing a society further and defying the law for something half of Catalonia doesn't even want.

[Collatis]

There is no consistent democratic argument for forcing Catalonia to remain in Spain when it doesn't want to. Appeals to the constitution are weak, as strangely enough a lot has changed since 1978 and there are a huge number of new Catalan voters that had no say in 1978.

I doubt those who appeal to the constitution would defend the special position that the Catholic church was previously afforded to them in the Irish constitution despite the Irish people voting for it.

Catalans are divided on the legality and necessity of a referendum on independence. The democratic argument is that it is not worth dividing a society further and defying the law for something half of Catalonia doesn't even want.

Scarcely has there been a country that wasn't at least somewhat divided on an issue as divisive as independence.