[DEFEATED] Commend Gay (Version 4)

[Kaboomlandia]

I will be interested to see how people vote.

I rarely vote based solely on the identity of the author; this is one of those times. I'm not supporting this.

[Greater Cesnica]

I will be interested to see how people vote.

I rarely vote based solely on the identity of the author; this is one of those times. I'm not supporting this.

This proposal is, as of posting, four approvals from queue. With 1 day 11 hours until expiration, it will almost certainly make quorum.

Lets hope Cesnica doesn't do anymore thread jacking...

Could you elaborate?

[Leutria]

It's important to note that Gay has always been (and may still be) against raiding players in their region. There have been incidences where a player who identifies within the LGBTQ community has been shunned and virtually pushed aside because they engage or previously engaged in raiding in-game. If people want to commend a region that treats in-game matters more importantly than the RL issues and the community they claim to champion, so be it.

Thank you for bringing this to light. That changes my vote on this matter.

[Cormactopia Prime]

It's important to note that Gay has always been (and may still be) against raiding players in their region. There have been incidences where a player who identifies within the LGBTQ community has been shunned and virtually pushed aside because they engage or previously engaged in raiding in-game. If people want to commend a region that treats in-game matters more importantly than the RL issues and the community they claim to champion, so be it.

This came up repeatedly when a previous author wanted to commend BearNation, and nothing has substantially changed since then. I'm not in favor of commending an LGBTQ region that excludes LGBTQ players or treats them as second class citizens based on gameplay ideology. Gay has always done that, and as a result of such exclusionary policies has completely failed to be a safe haven for all LGBTQ players.

Against.

[The North Polish Union]

Defender morality strikes again!

[Lord Ravenclaw]

It's important to note that Gay has always been (and may still be) against raiding players in their region. There have been incidences where a player who identifies within the LGBTQ community has been shunned and virtually pushed aside because they engage or previously engaged in raiding in-game. If people want to commend a region that treats in-game matters more importantly than the RL issues and the community they claim to champion, so be it.

This came up repeatedly when a previous author wanted to commend BearNation, and nothing has substantially changed since then. I'm not in favor of commending an LGBTQ region that excludes LGBTQ players or treats them as second class citizens based on gameplay ideology. Gay has always done that, and as a result of such exclusionary policies has completely failed to be a safe haven for all LGBTQ players.

Against.

This is something that I recall as concerning me a fair bit when I considered Gay as a potential place to visit post my Osiris Delegacy in 2014. I'd like to hear from Gay and be assured that this has changed, but looking at the WFE it seems that I will be disappointed.

The RL community is divided as well, so I can't say I'm surprised the NS version also seeks to divide people on their own criteria. :/

[Greater Cesnica]

With all of your points, you guys do have a good reason to not support this. However, don't you think Gay's accomplishments, achievements, and pros outweigh the bad stuff? I personally think they do.

[Lord Ravenclaw]

That was my initial thought Cesnica, I want to be able to say that there is a place for someone of my sexuality on NS that we can always use as a bastion and example of the equal rights movement. But I'm not a defender, if anything I've done a whole lot to damage defenderism's influence in the GCRs over the last five years. So the idea that because my in-character political views and political activism in NS has rendered me unsuitable for a community named after my very sexuality is a strangely odd one to think about.

Again, I'd really like to hear from someone within Gay to reassure me about this. I want to be able to support this.

[Cerillium]

With all of your points, you guys do have a good reason to not support this. However, don't you think Gay's accomplishments, achievements, and pros outweigh the bad stuff? I personally think they do.

I don't. I'm disgusted by it. The LGBT+ community is ostracized enough in real life. Often the only venue available to young players is online. Regions such as Gay exist in order to give them a sense of belonging. They need a place where being gay is okay. When that region puts their politics before an individual's needs, it becomes one more tear in that person's self esteem.

Gameplayer: "I'm gay, tho."
Region: "Doen't matter. You suck."

I do not support this. I won't support anything that reflects bias against gay gameplayers based solely on their involvement, no matter how small, in a metagame.

[Jakker]

With all of your points, you guys do have a good reason to not support this. However, don't you think Gay's accomplishments, achievements, and pros outweigh the bad stuff? I personally think they do.

I'd argue that with the fact that they are not welcoming to all LGBTQ members, several of your clauses lose a lot of validity. Therefore, what is left is that Gay has been a defending-leaning region for a while that has had a large population and passed "Gay Rights."

While the passage of the resolution is significant, the rest is not very unique or highly commendable.

[Thermodolia]

It's important to note that Gay has always been (and may still be) against raiding players in their region. There have been incidences where a player who identifies within the LGBTQ community has been shunned and virtually pushed aside because they engage or previously engaged in raiding in-game. If people want to commend a region that treats in-game matters more importantly than the RL issues and the community they claim to champion, so be it.

Officially raiders are not allowed. This is mainly because in the past the region has been raided, you can't blame a region for not wanting raiders in after it's seen a few attempted raids.

In practice nobody really cares if you where a former raider or a raider who is just stopping by.

[Thermodolia]

It's important to note that Gay has always been (and may still be) against raiding players in their region. There have been incidences where a player who identifies within the LGBTQ community has been shunned and virtually pushed aside because they engage or previously engaged in raiding in-game. If people want to commend a region that treats in-game matters more importantly than the RL issues and the community they claim to champion, so be it.

This came up repeatedly when a previous author wanted to commend BearNation, and nothing has substantially changed since then. I'm not in favor of commending an LGBTQ region that excludes LGBTQ players or treats them as second class citizens based on gameplay ideology. Gay has always done that, and as a result of such exclusionary policies has completely failed to be a safe haven for all LGBTQ players.

Against.

Well when you have been raided in the past and have had multiple attempted raids you really cannot blame a region for not wanting raiders in. Maybe if some raiders decided that gay shouldn't be raided then the policy might change.

[Bears Armed]

This came up repeatedly when a previous author wanted to commend BearNation, and nothing has substantially changed since then. I'm not in favor of commending an LGBTQ region that excludes LGBTQ players or treats them as second class citizens based on gameplay ideology. Gay has always done that, and as a result of such exclusionary policies has completely failed to be a safe haven for all LGBTQ players.

Against.

Well when you have been raided in the past and have had multiple attempted raids you really cannot blame a region for not wanting raiders in. Maybe if some raiders decided that gay shouldn't be raided then the policy might change.

That sounds reasonable to me.

[Keshahk]

I am against gay for the reason I am against what essentially is a mental, illness. There are two sexes/genders. THAT IS FINAL

[Sanctaria]

I am against gay for the reason I am against what essentially is a mental, illness. There are two sexes/genders. THAT IS FINAL

So I don't think you actually know what homosexuality is which is 50/50 both hilarious and concerning.

As for the proposal at hand, against. The LGBT community should know better than to cast out those who are different. Shame on Gay.

[Lord Ravenclaw]

I am against gay for the reason I am against what essentially is a mental, illness. There are two sexes/genders. THAT IS FINAL

So I don't think you actually know what homosexuality is which is 50/50 both hilarious and concerning.

As for the proposal at hand, against. The LGBT community should know better than to cast out those who are different. Shame on Gay.

I think he's trying to say that people who are LGBT etc are mentally ill. Then he went on to make an anti-Trans statement, which shows that he doesn't actually understand what this thread is about either.

[Jakker]

This came up repeatedly when a previous author wanted to commend BearNation, and nothing has substantially changed since then. I'm not in favor of commending an LGBTQ region that excludes LGBTQ players or treats them as second class citizens based on gameplay ideology. Gay has always done that, and as a result of such exclusionary policies has completely failed to be a safe haven for all LGBTQ players.

Against.

Well when you have been raided in the past and have had multiple attempted raids you really cannot blame a region for not wanting raiders in. Maybe if some raiders decided that gay shouldn't be raided then the policy might change.

Not really reasonable since you have an active founder and there has not been any raid attempt in years. I know for a fact that there was a raider who was gay IRL and really wanted to get more involved in the region and you all wouldn't let them.

Furthermore, few regions have a rule like this (even those that have been raided in the past). Again, it's your region and you all can do what you wish. But I don't see a reason to pass a proposal for a region who is supposedly inclusive and welcoming when that is not truly the case.

[Wrapper]

I am against gay for the reason I am against what essentially is a mental, illness. There are two sexes/genders. THAT IS FINAL

Keshahk, this comment crosses the line as trolling. Please refer to the site rules (in my signature, the One Stop Rules Shop (OSRS)) and do try to play by the rules. Thank you.

[Alvalero]

"Admiring Gay's status as a Defender Region, a position that they have held since their inception, and their constant quest to help fight off raiders from fellow regions, which can be seen from their membership in the Founderless Regions Alliance (FRA)- an alliance that had served to protect founderless regions from the tyranny of raider organizations for over 10 years,"

Not a commendable action merely an alignment choice. What the region accomplished itself in the defender sphere would be a more apt reason to include. While being able to resist invasion is a positive for the region, a region doing things within itself I also do not see as commendable by the international community.

As for not welcoming raiders, I do understand not wanting people from regions/organisations that have sought to conquer yours however I would like to know if this extends to raiders who are not part of those regions/organisations. That being said, excluding people from regions that have caused no harm based on their in-game alignment would go against the apparent non-discriminate nature of the region. While I do support a regions right to discriminate when it comes to accepting new citizens, this would in my eyes mean that any part of a commendation for the region mentioning it as a region that doesn't discriminate based on background would be a completely false statement and would need to be removed.

However, don't you think Gay's accomplishments, achievements, and pros outweigh the bad stuff? I personally think they do.

While I agree that a region can be commended for the pursuit of LGBT rights across NS which have improved the NS community, the commendation must relinquish the parts that are either not commendable or untrue. I don't have a problem supporting a proposal where the region in question has achieved more positives than negatives however I don't support proposals that have parts which I don't agree with in it. Until these parts are changed then I will be voting against this resolution.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Well when you have been raided in the past and have had multiple attempted raids you really cannot blame a region for not wanting raiders in. Maybe if some raiders decided that gay shouldn't be raided then the policy might change.

Not really reasonable since you have an active founder and there has not been any raid attempt in years. I know for a fact that there was a raider who was gay IRL and really wanted to get more involved in the region and you all wouldn't let them.

I know him too. He was trying to get involved there when I wanted to get involved there as a new player in early 2012, and was discouraged when it was made clear that raiders -- by which they meant anyone who had raided in the past, not even just active raiders -- would be treated as second class citizens. He still kept trying to get involved even after I gave up because it was clear I wasn't welcome. I don't think it worked out for him.

Under no circumstances should Gay be commended for being welcoming to LGBTQ+ people, because it isn't -- not to all of us. You add insult to injury when you not only attempt to deceptively commend them for that, but also add their "resilience to raider organizations" as grounds for commendation. Their "resilience" against LGBTQ+ raiders isn't commendable; it's actually pretty appalling that they would exclude us based on silly gameplay stuff when their region is supposed to be about serious advocacy for all LGBTQ+ people. The raiders who have tried to participate there aren't trying to raid them.

It might be different if Gay were founderless, but it isn't. Their exclusion of LGBTQ+ raiders is exclusion for the sake of exclusion, and nothing more.

[The North Polish Union]

If you believe that homosexuality is great you should vote against this because Gay is not at all actually inclusive of or friendly to the LGBT community as a whole.

If you believe that homosexuality is immoral/a mental illness/whatever you should vote against this for obvious reasons.

If you don't care you should vote against this because Gay has actively participated in the destruction of perfectly innocent regional communities through participation in the FRA.

On the whole, I'm not seeing any reasons to vote for this resolution. Gay is more deserving of a Condemnation than a Commendation

[The Stalker]

First I would like to say I know raiders are welcome in Gay.

The instant that caused this public perception of anti-raider sentiment was when a raider, who I believe is now Dos, joined Gay and tried to shift their defender status to independent. A vote was held, they were out voted and got rather heated about it decrying Gay as some raider hating villain, which I feel is very unfair characterization.

Their wfe even states; "LGBTQ and straight ally raiders are welcome so long as they respect our defender status."

They also share embassies with Osiris, and I know are working towards better relations with raiders.

The other issue folks have is over a dated rule preventing raiders holding high offices in the region. Left over from the days Gay was founderless and something I know BearNation plans to change.

This rule is also likely due to the fact they elect their founder. Something I consider crazy, but they are a democracy through and through.

It is my hope Gay does get around to updating their laws and changing this public miss perception.

[Greater Cesnica]

First I would like to say I know raiders are welcome in Gay.

The instant that caused this public perception of anti-raider sentiment was when a raider, who I believe is now Dos, joined Gay and tried to shift their defender status to independent. A vote was held, they were out voted and got rather heated about it decrying Gay as some raider hating villain, which I feel is very unfair characterization.

Their wfe even states; "LGBTQ and straight ally raiders are welcome so long as they respect our defender status."

They also share embassies with Osiris, and I know are working towards better relations with raiders.

The other issue folks have is over a dated rule preventing raiders holding high offices in the region. Left over from the days Gay was founderless and something I know BearNation plans to change.

This rule is also likely due to the fact they elect their founder. Something I consider crazy, but they are a democracy through and through.

It is my hope Gay does get around to updating their laws and changing this public miss perception.

More people should know this. I would also like to thank everyone who has supported me and this resolution.

[Jakker]

First I would like to say I know raiders are welcome in Gay.

The instant that caused this public perception of anti-raider sentiment was when a raider, who I believe is now Dos, joined Gay and tried to shift their defender status to independent. A vote was held, they were out voted and got rather heated about it decrying Gay as some raider hating villain, which I feel is very unfair characterization.

Their wfe even states; "LGBTQ and straight ally raiders are welcome so long as they respect our defender status."

They also share embassies with Osiris, and I know are working towards better relations with raiders.

The other issue folks have is over a dated rule preventing raiders holding high offices in the region. Left over from the days Gay was founderless and something I know BearNation plans to change.

This rule is also likely due to the fact they elect their founder. Something I consider crazy, but they are a democracy through and through.

It is my hope Gay does get around to updating their laws and changing this public miss perception.

I'm pretty sure it was mentioned when the founder was up for commendation that their laws would be updated as well. This has gone on for quite some time with no visible action. I would think that for any space that wants to be welcoming to their community regardless of ideology, they would do everything in their power to make that clear. I just don't understand why that has not happened.

[The North Polish Union]

First I would like to say I know raiders are welcome in Gay.

The instant that caused this public perception of anti-raider sentiment was when a raider, who I believe is now Dos, joined Gay and tried to shift their defender status to independent. A vote was held, they were out voted and got rather heated about it decrying Gay as some raider hating villain, which I feel is very unfair characterization.

Their wfe even states; "LGBTQ and straight ally raiders are welcome so long as they respect our defender status."

They also share embassies with Osiris, and I know are working towards better relations with raiders.

The other issue folks have is over a dated rule preventing raiders holding high offices in the region. Left over from the days Gay was founderless and something I know BearNation plans to change.

This rule is also likely due to the fact they elect their founder. Something I consider crazy, but they are a democracy through and through.

It is my hope Gay does get around to updating their laws and changing this public miss perception.

Even if that's the case (and I genuinely doubt it is) the desire to right wrongs in a region's past is not in itself commendable. If it is the case, it'd be better to wait a few years and see how these reforms pan out before bringing up a commendation again. Note though that even if this does become rectified I will still personally be voting against because of Gay's past actions