Libertarian Discussion Thread

[Liberated Territories]

--Hey hey, it has been two, three years since that. People change their stances with the time.

He keeps his finger wet in the wind, yes. If Kentucky suddenly became a hotbed of Trotskyism he'd grow a goatee.

We would exocommunicate him regardless

[Northern Davincia]

Rand isn't against marijuana, last I checked, nor gay marriage. He's been critical of defense spending too as much as profiling.

As late as 2014, RP was still pandering to the Kentucky evangelical vote, telling them he supported the war on drugs, and blew some fairly homophobic dogwhistles in opposition to gay marriage. He has voted yes for every defense spending increase that he's been ever been offered to vote no upon. He has opined that people who merely listen to certain political speakers should be scrutinized. He's a reliable conservative, but libertarian? Uh, no.

And lest we forget, he's the one that added "and replace" to the effort to repeal Obamacare, muddying a clear strategy to rid us of a boondoggle welfare initiative completely to attempt to substitute it with an even worse boondoggle.

Where are the citations for Rand's support of the drug war and homophobia?

Besides, replacing Obamacare with nothing is as disastrous as keeping it intact. There's too much at risk to not have a replacement of some kind.

[Nulla Bellum]

As late as 2014, RP was still pandering to the Kentucky evangelical vote, telling them he supported the war on drugs, and blew some fairly homophobic dogwhistles in opposition to gay marriage. He has voted yes for every defense spending increase that he's been ever been offered to vote no upon. He has opined that people who merely listen to certain political speakers should be scrutinized. He's a reliable conservative, but libertarian? Uh, no.

And lest we forget, he's the one that added "and replace" to the effort to repeal Obamacare, muddying a clear strategy to rid us of a boondoggle welfare initiative completely to attempt to substitute it with an even worse boondoggle.

Where are the citations for Rand's support of the drug war and homophobia?

Besides, replacing Obamacare with nothing is as disastrous as keeping it intact. There's too much at risk to not have a replacement of some kind.

Reason Magazine had a nice "Rand Paul is not a Libertarian" style article a few years back that settled the question for me. I'll try to find it. Google search of that phrase turns up oodles of articles and videos that do the same.

As long as "replace Obamacare" brings free market reforms and legalizes entree plans where I can pick and chose coverage options (my current policy covers things I will never need, such as ovarian cancer screening and birth control pills - I'm male) so I can reduce the price, rather than just another government centrally planned monstrosity, I'd be more optimistic. But government is in the moral hazard creation bidness...

[Zurkerx]

So, what does everyone one think of Trump's sudden (not surprising) ban of transgender in our military. Apparently, he did this so he can get his spending bill passed that included funding the border wall. http://www.politico.com/story/2017/07/2 ... nes-240990

[Nulla Bellum]

So, what does everyone one think of Trump's sudden (not surprising) ban of transgender in our military. Apparently, he did this so he can get his spending bill passed that included funding the border wall. http://www.politico.com/story/2017/07/2 ... nes-240990

I thought Mexico was gonna pay for the wall and Trump is the great dealmaker that gets shit done and we're going to win so much we'll get tired of winning.

[Liberated Territories]

So apparently Austin Petersen had a debate with David Friedman (son of Milton Friedman.) I'll try to find the video, or if anyone does they are free to post it.

The biggest difference between the two is that Austin is a minarchist while David Friedman is an anarchist. However, I think there are more similarities than differences. Both are consequentialists for example.

[Telconi]

So apparently Austin Petersen had a debate with David Friedman (son of Milton Friedman.) I'll try to find the video, or if anyone does they are free to post it.

The biggest difference between the two is that Austin is a minarchist while David Friedman is an anarchist. However, I think there are more similarities than differences. Both are consequentialists for example.

This ought to be good

[Idzequitch]

NJ Sen. Cory Booker has introduced a bill to legalize marijuana nation-wide.

[Secundus Imperium Romanum]

can minarchists enter without being lynched by ancaps?

[Idzequitch]

can minarchists enter without being lynched by ancaps?

The majority of libertarians in this thread are different from your typical libertarian, in that we don't all insist that everyone subscribe to our own particular brand of liberty.

Also, I think that mindset is severely holding libertarians back in the USA. Too much ideological purism is not a good thing.

[Secundus Imperium Romanum]

can minarchists enter without being lynched by ancaps?

The majority of libertarians in this thread are different from your typical libertarian, in that we don't all insist that everyone subscribe to our own particular brand of liberty.

Also, I think that mindset is severely holding libertarians back in the USA. Too much ideological purism is not a good thing.

i'm just kidding
I am Brazilian and I knew libertarianism a few months ago during youtube, I had heard it but never paid so much attention, I was (and still am, for other reasons only) a moderate monarchist, and when I met I identified myself with minarchism.

I believe that the limited state must exist in order to avoid the emergence of a possible corporation, as well as providing a basis for public services (health, education, justice and defense) as well as private plans to ensure that everyone has the same right to progress to the future, stimulating meritocracy. So all those who are low class but wish to have a higher income with their trade can have the same intellect as a famous entrepreneur, just the merit of growing and running their business. The state should be minimal, always stimulate private initiative and have a practical and simplified (unicameral, bipartisan) political system.

[Liberated Territories]

2 Brazilian libertarians in this thread
200k likes on the Mises brazil fb page vs. 4k likes on the Mises Canada page

God damn it Canada!

[Secundus Imperium Romanum]

2 Brazilian libertarians in this thread
200k likes on the Mises brazil page vs. 4k likes on the Mises Canada page

God damn it Canada!

VOCÊ É BRASILEIRO?
if not, in few years brazil can become the first and biggest liberland

[Liberated Territories]

The majority of libertarians in this thread are different from your typical libertarian, in that we don't all insist that everyone subscribe to our own particular brand of liberty.

Also, I think that mindset is severely holding libertarians back in the USA. Too much ideological purism is not a good thing.

i'm just kidding
I am Brazilian and I knew libertarianism a few months ago during youtube, I had heard it but never paid so much attention, I was (and still am, for other reasons only) a moderate monarchist, and when I met I identified myself with minarchism.

I believe that the limited state must exist in order to avoid the emergence of a possible corporation, as well as providing a basis for public services (health, education, justice and defense) as well as private plans to ensure that everyone has the same right to progress to the future, stimulating meritocracy. So all those who are low class but wish to have a higher income with their trade can have the same intellect as a famous entrepreneur, just the merit of growing and running their business. The state should be minimal, always stimulate private initiative and have a practical and simplified (unicameral, bipartisan) political system.

What do you mean by "stimulate?"

If you mean by giving broad tax cuts than I am on board...if you mean subsidies than I cannot support this.

I agree with a simplified system. Simpler is better, too many pages in the tax books means it can be easily exploited by the rich while the poor can't do shit. This is why I want a flat rate of tax over the progressive system.

[Liberated Territories]

2 Brazilian libertarians in this thread
200k likes on the Mises brazil page vs. 4k likes on the Mises Canada page

God damn it Canada!

VOCÊ É BRASILEIRO?
if not, in few years brazil can become the first and biggest liberland

"please come to brazil, we got more freedom than fuckin canada"

or, in HUEspeech: pLeAsE cOmE tO bRaZiL

[Secundus Imperium Romanum]

VOCÊ É BRASILEIRO?
if not, in few years brazil can become the first and biggest liberland

"please come to brazil, we got more freedom than fuckin canada"

or, in HUEspeech: pLeAsE cOmE tO bRaZiL

i never understand this meme

[Secundus Imperium Romanum]

i'm just kidding
I am Brazilian and I knew libertarianism a few months ago during youtube, I had heard it but never paid so much attention, I was (and still am, for other reasons only) a moderate monarchist, and when I met I identified myself with minarchism.

I believe that the limited state must exist in order to avoid the emergence of a possible corporation, as well as providing a basis for public services (health, education, justice and defense) as well as private plans to ensure that everyone has the same right to progress to the future, stimulating meritocracy. So all those who are low class but wish to have a higher income with their trade can have the same intellect as a famous entrepreneur, just the merit of growing and running their business. The state should be minimal, always stimulate private initiative and have a practical and simplified (unicameral, bipartisan) political system.

What do you mean by "stimulate?"

If you mean by giving broad tax cuts than I am on board...if you mean subsidies than I cannot support this.

I agree with a simplified system. Simpler is better, too many pages in the tax books means it can be easily exploited by the rich while the poor can't do shit. This is why I want a flat rate of tax over the progressive system.

Extremely low or zero taxes, low export tariffs and other things related to tax.

[Taostic Aesthetics]

I really don't care about Israel and Palestine.

Privatize the borders and it will solve :^)

[Washington Resistance Army]

Tbqh we should just privatize all of the Middle East.

[Telconi]

can minarchists enter without being lynched by ancaps?

Well I'm a leftish fellow who strongly opposes abortion and they haven't booted me yet.

[Washington Resistance Army]

can minarchists enter without being lynched by ancaps?

I think the majority here are minarchists.

[Secundus Imperium Romanum]

I really don't care about Israel and Palestine.

Privatize the borders and it will solve :^)

a federal state as suggested in Cyprus would be better

[Liberated Territories]

Excuse me if I rant for a moment.

The idea that people are "naturally" libertarian is a load of hogwash. This is the idea that is being peddled by Reason magazine and Gary Johnson, but I don't buy it at all.

In reality people are naturally authoritarian, they have no qualms about kicking out the drug dealers, sexual deviants (such as queers and transexuals), immigrants, and other non-conformers. The distinction between the left and right is only who is being kicked out or imprisoned. For the left, if you are arbitrarily labeled as racist due to the one innocuous comment you made on Twitter you deserve to be fined, harassed or imprisoned. "Punch a Nazi" and the like.

Rothbard got it right later in his life, even though I don't think it a good idea to become authoritarians in order to defeat authoritarianism. *coughmolyneuxcough* Instead I have embraced a Nietschean/Menckenesque cynicism. Perhaps libertarianism will come when the 1st world crumbles under its increasingly authoritarian-socialist policies, or more likely we'll just revert back to our tribalist mentality of blaming other groups for the wrongs of society...whether it is the Jews or the Capitalists or the bourgeois or whatever.

[Telconi]

Excuse me if I rant for a moment.

The idea that people are "naturally" libertarian is a load of hogwash. This is the idea that is being peddled by Reason magazine and Gary Johnson, but I don't buy it at all.

In reality people are naturally authoritarian, they have no qualms about kicking out the drug dealers, sexual deviants (such as queers and transexuals), immigrants, and other non-conformers. The distinction between the left and right is only who is being kicked out or imprisoned. For the left, if you are arbitrarily labeled as racist due to the one innocuous comment you made on Twitter you deserve to be fined, harassed or imprisoned. "Punch a Nazi" and the like.

Rothbard got it right later in his life, even though I don't think it a good idea to become authoritarians in order to defeat authoritarianism. *coughmolyneuxcough* Instead I have embraced a Nietschean/Menckenesque cynicism. Perhaps libertarianism will come when the 1st world crumbles under its increasingly authoritarian-socialist policies, or more likely we'll just revert back to our tribalist mentality of blaming other groups for the wrongs of society...whether it is the Jews or the Capitalists or the bourgeois or whatever.

I agree on a lot of that. I think the natural state of humanity is authoritarian. Take a look at any group of kindergarten kids playing together and tell me that humans are born libertarian, I dare you.

Having said that, I believe there is a delicate balance at play. As many of you know, I'm not one who tends towards the anarchic brand of libertarianism. While I agree that government intrusion is inherently wrong, I believe in certain situations it is a lesser evil that has legitimate use to end greater evil. In this sense, I believe authoritarian acts have legitimate use to counter other authoritarian acts.

As for what will cause a rise in libertarian values, I think it's simple, especially here in the states with the two party dichotomy. People will simply need to understand that for the most part, it is more valuable to exercise your rights, unmolested, than it is to molest someone else exercising their rights that you dislike.

[New Visayan Islands]

Excuse me if I rant for a moment.

The idea that people are "naturally" libertarian is a load of hogwash. This is the idea that is being peddled by Reason magazine and Gary Johnson, but I don't buy it at all.

In reality people are naturally authoritarian, they have no qualms about kicking out the drug dealers, sexual deviants (such as queers and transexuals), immigrants, and other non-conformers. The distinction between the left and right is only who is being kicked out or imprisoned. For the left, if you are arbitrarily labeled as racist due to the one innocuous comment you made on Twitter you deserve to be fined, harassed or imprisoned. "Punch a Nazi" and the like.

Rothbard got it right later in his life, even though I don't think it a good idea to become authoritarians in order to defeat authoritarianism. *coughmolyneuxcough* Instead I have embraced a Nietschean/Menckenesque cynicism. Perhaps libertarianism will come when the 1st world crumbles under its increasingly authoritarian-socialist policies, or more likely we'll just revert back to our tribalist mentality of blaming other groups for the wrongs of society...whether it is the Jews or the Capitalists or the bourgeois or whatever.

I agree on a lot of that. I think the natural state of humanity is authoritarian. Take a look at any group of kindergarten kids playing together and tell me that humans are born libertarian, I dare you.

Having said that, I believe there is a delicate balance at play. As many of you know, I'm not one who tends towards the anarchic brand of libertarianism. While I agree that government intrusion is inherently wrong, I believe in certain situations it is a lesser evil that has legitimate use to end greater evil. In this sense, I believe authoritarian acts have legitimate use to counter other authoritarian acts.

As for what will cause a rise in libertarian values, I think it's simple, especially here in the states with the two party dichotomy. People will simply need to understand that for the most part, it is more valuable to exercise your rights, unmolested, than it is to molest someone else exercising their rights that you dislike.

Like St. Augustine, who said lesser evils can be lived with if only to avert greater evils.

Which is why I'm more of a minarchist.