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by Glen-Rhodes » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:27 am
by Guy » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:27 am
Roavin wrote:Lenlyvit wrote:
This is rich, coming from you Cormac. A person, if I remember correctly, who said that Funk would never coup Lazarus because "its not in his character". Heads up, in case your head is burried in the sand still, FUNK COUPED LAZARUS. If he destroys the forums and discord as well, then it would indeed be "in his character". Look around before saying stuff like this.
Eh, I'll have to disagree with you there, Len - coup =/= offsite property destruction, and the latter is considered one of the worst things that can be done by a NS player (look up the COPS treaty and why it was created if you are interested in the history). Plenty of forums from failed governments, either due to failed coups or from the previous government after a successful coup, are still online, usually in a read-only fashion; I'd assume Discord servers would (and should) be treated in a similar fashion.
Now, could Funk technically do that? Sure. Would he? Very unlikely, and I wouldn't accuse him of doing so.
[violet] wrote:Never underestimate the ability of admin to do nothing.
by Glaciosia » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:41 am
by Cormactopia Prime » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:44 am
Guy wrote:Roavin wrote:
Eh, I'll have to disagree with you there, Len - coup =/= offsite property destruction, and the latter is considered one of the worst things that can be done by a NS player (look up the COPS treaty and why it was created if you are interested in the history). Plenty of forums from failed governments, either due to failed coups or from the previous government after a successful coup, are still online, usually in a read-only fashion; I'd assume Discord servers would (and should) be treated in a similar fashion.
Now, could Funk technically do that? Sure. Would he? Very unlikely, and I wouldn't accuse him of doing so.
I agree with Roavin.
Funk has shown a willingness to undermine the democratic governance of Lazarus, and coup it for his own end. That doesn't usually lead to forum destruction, and so it can't be said Funk has the tendency to do things of a similar nature to forum destruction.
by Pierconium » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:45 am
Glen-Rhodes wrote:There goes the point flying over your head Cormac.
Delegate supremacy isn't relevant here, nor is it a solution to anything. If The Pacific was usurped and the Delegate demanded to be the root of the NPO's forum (and then delete it), I find it hard to believe that Pierconium would be on here saying, "Oh well geez, that is his right. We must fork over the forum and let it be erased. Delegate supremacy!" while 125k posts worth of Pacifican history is destroyed by the Delegate.
You can't untie Funk's coup from the fact that he controls Lazarus's offsite community. It's not being Delegate that's giving him power of the community's history-- it's being the root admin of their forums. If the resistance unseats Funk, Delegate supremacy isn't going to save 67,000 posts and years of history. That's why it's a flawed argument to make here. If Delegate supremacy is what matters, then we would expect that Funk would hand over the forums to whoever replaces him in that spot. But we all know that's probably not going to happen, if he loses this coup. So, again, what's the point of pushing Delegate supremacy or basing your opinion of the coup on it?
by Guy » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:58 am
Cormactopia Prime wrote:Guy wrote:I agree with Roavin.
Funk has shown a willingness to undermine the democratic governance of Lazarus, and coup it for his own end. That doesn't usually lead to forum destruction, and so it can't be said Funk has the tendency to do things of a similar nature to forum destruction.
Do you agree with Roavin? Because on the Rejected Realms Discord server, you just accused me of forum destruction being in my character -- despite five years in this game and constantly opposing forum destruction -- and then called me "unstable." So it seems like really you agree more with Glen-Rhodes and Lenlyvit that it's fine to baselessly accuse others of future forum destruction, and then question their OOC mental health (which is a step further than even they went), because you don't like their gameplay style or politics. That doesn't sound like agreeing with Roavin at all.
[violet] wrote:Never underestimate the ability of admin to do nothing.
by Unibot III » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:18 am
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
by Solorni » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:23 am
by The NAtion OF Froggy » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:27 am
Solorni wrote:Compared to other democratic regions like Balder, Lazarus obviously does not have the same rights for its citizens. Considering how its legal to purge people like Griffyn & Harmoneia... does not strike me as a region based on the same legal rights as other democratic ones.
by Glen-Rhodes » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:30 am
Pierconium wrote:Disagreeing over gameplay matters and who is currently in control of the Delegacy doesn't have to be an OOC ordeal. Some people will undoubtedly get butt hurt and take things too far, that's life, but at the end of the day our ones and zeroes all come from the same place.
by The Church of Satan » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:33 am
by Cormactopia Prime » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:34 am
Glen-Rhodes wrote:Exactly, people blow up and go too far, especially when they lose. Funk has pulled the trigger on the most extreme political fight you can have in a GCR. Those sitting there, including my buddy and pal Roavin, are being naive if they think there's no danger of forum destruction. There ALWAYS is when the couper owns the forum.
I'll be the first to bet that the forum will be used a threat or bargaining chip if the resistance appears close to succeeding. Cormac can gasp as much as he wants about that.
by Solorni » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:40 am
The Church of Satan wrote:Am I the only one surprised to see Rach using Harmeonia's ejection as an example of inequality? Just saying.
by Lenlyvit » Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:25 pm
Cormactopia Prime wrote:Lenlyvit wrote:
This is rich, coming from you Cormac. A person, if I remember correctly, who said that Funk would never coup Lazarus because "its not in his character". Heads up, in case your head is burried in the sand still, FUNK COUPED LAZARUS. If he destroys the forums and discord as well, then it would indeed be "in his character". Look around before saying stuff like this.
That was New Rogernomics. I've been urging Funkadelia to do exactly what he's doing since pretty much the beginning of this crisis, so I wouldn't have said he wouldn't do it while urging him to do it. Get your facts straight if you're going to make accusations.
Should I assume though that you support Glen-Rhodes in suggesting Funkadelia would destroy the Lazarus forum in the future? It's important for the world to know what kind of people they will be supporting if they support the "government-in-exile" and their allies. Do you stand by that smear?
Are you further suggesting that it is in the character of anyone who has ever couped to destroy a forum?
by Roavin » Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:54 pm
Solorni wrote:Isn't it possible anyone will delete the forums they have adminship over?
by New Rogernomics » Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:13 pm
Don't want to be dragged into this. What I said is that it 'would not be in his character to coup', not Funk could not coup. The contention would be whether this was a 'coup' or not, if it was a 'coup' then up till now it wasn't in his nature. I retired from Lazarus earlier in the year, so I wasn't up to date on all the gossip.Cormactopia Prime wrote:Lenlyvit wrote:
This is rich, coming from you Cormac. A person, if I remember correctly, who said that Funk would never coup Lazarus because "its not in his character". Heads up, in case your head is burried in the sand still, FUNK COUPED LAZARUS. If he destroys the forums and discord as well, then it would indeed be "in his character". Look around before saying stuff like this.
That was New Rogernomics. I've been urging Funkadelia to do exactly what he's doing since pretty much the beginning of this crisis, so I wouldn't have said he wouldn't do it while urging him to do it. Get your facts straight if you're going to make accusations.
Should I assume though that you support Glen-Rhodes in suggesting Funkadelia would destroy the Lazarus forum in the future? It's important for the world to know what kind of people they will be supporting if they support the "government-in-exile" and their allies. Do you stand by that smear?
Are you further suggesting that it is in the character of anyone who has ever couped to destroy a forum?
by Lazarene Lenlyvit » Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:11 pm
New Rogernomics wrote:Don't want to be dragged into this. What I said is that it 'would not be in his character to coup', not Funk could not coup. The contention would be whether this was a 'coup' or not, if it was a 'coup' then up till now it wasn't in his nature. I retired from Lazarus earlier in the year, so I wasn't up to date on all the gossip.Cormactopia Prime wrote:That was New Rogernomics. I've been urging Funkadelia to do exactly what he's doing since pretty much the beginning of this crisis, so I wouldn't have said he wouldn't do it while urging him to do it. Get your facts straight if you're going to make accusations.
Should I assume though that you support Glen-Rhodes in suggesting Funkadelia would destroy the Lazarus forum in the future? It's important for the world to know what kind of people they will be supporting if they support the "government-in-exile" and their allies. Do you stand by that smear?
Are you further suggesting that it is in the character of anyone who has ever couped to destroy a forum?
Optimism isn't a crime however, I really hoped that the region could avoid a confrontation over the Delegacy.
It is a sad day for Lazarus. I can't honestly take any joy in the old guard tearing itself apart, and people turning on each other. I don't know if Lazarus will ever be the same now, it might likely not be any region I remember.
First Lazarus lost NES and others in the PRL or PRL 'coup', and now we have lost Harmoneia and others in recent events.
For me it isn't a question of what people did wrong, but losing people from the community.
PS: No one has suggested forum destruction, the forum has been re-instated on the WFE and still exists.
by The Church of Satan » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:18 pm
by Pentaga Giudici » Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:52 pm
by Kanglia » Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:29 pm
by Galiantus VII » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:47 pm
Unibot III wrote:Galiantus, I'll be the evil moralist and respond to your philosophical question:
The problem of legitimacy in GCRs is not a unique problem in political philosophy - it's a question as old as Thomas Hobbes. GCR states derive their legitimacy from the consent of the governed. Every state promises something to their citizens: their legitimacy is contractual, it poses responsibilities to its residents. The NPO promises order and stability for its residents, democracies like TSP, TNP, TRR and Lazarus promise a free and equal society with rights, freedoms, political and legal equality and a popular sovereign. Unilaterally, these contracts cannot be neglected, abrogated or superceded legitimately.
That's a fancy way of saying a democracy owes its legitimacy to its democracy. Violate that legal order and you're acting without legitimacy.
The side effects of hearing a view you disagree with can include confusion, nausea, and vomiting. Just try and listen to someone say anything politically incorrect without doing any of those things. Obviously, then, we have to consider the precious feelings of everyone we talk to. Some people don't want to be triggered, guys. It's their right as Americans.
by Cormactopia Prime » Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:42 am
The Church of Satan wrote:Cormac, why bother trying to justify Funk's coup with regional law (which it can't) when you yourself have admitted that you don't care about Lazarene law?
by Senator Elegarth » Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:14 am
Cormactopia Prime wrote:The Church of Satan wrote:Cormac, why bother trying to justify Funk's coup with regional law (which it can't) when you yourself have admitted that you don't care about Lazarene law?
I've already answered this question at least twice. The "resistance" calling itself a "government-in-exile" bases its entire argument on the rule of law, so it is hypocritical -- and entirely defeats your purpose -- for you to engage in illegal activities. One can point out the hypocrisy and inconsistency, and how it completely undermines your entire effort, without actually sharing your opinion on the rule of law.
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