Why does no one care about the MRA

[Galloism]

Maybe as women are more equal; MRA issues may not get looked down on as much......

I think part of the issue is that the MRA "movement", insofar as any such thing exists, has failed to present itself as a reasonable movement, and instead has gone beyond trying to, say, raise awareness for male rape or problems with reporting female-on-male domestic violence, and has instead espoused all kinds of regressive bullshit- and furthermore, if there are more moderate factions, they've done themselves a disservice by failing to build an effective PR campaign to dismiss the crazies who make them look bad.

What regressive bullshit, specifically?

There's lots of things to criticize MRAs for (hell, I do it myself), but "regressive bullshit" doesn't seem to be one, at least that I've observed.

It feels sort of like you criticizing Trump by asserting he's a communist.

[Neo Balka]

I think part of the issue is that the MRA "movement", insofar as any such thing exists, has failed to present itself as a reasonable movement, and instead has gone beyond trying to, say, raise awareness for male rape or problems with reporting female-on-male domestic violence, and has instead espoused all kinds of regressive bullshit- and furthermore, if there are more moderate factions, they've done themselves a disservice by failing to build an effective PR campaign to dismiss the crazies who make them look bad.

What regressive bullshit, specifically?

There's lots of things to criticize MRAs for (hell, I do it myself), but "regressive bullshit" doesn't seem to be one, at least that I've observed.

the idea that men can be victims too, apparently.

[Neanderthaland]

What regressive bullshit, specifically?

There's lots of things to criticize MRAs for (hell, I do it myself), but "regressive bullshit" doesn't seem to be one, at least that I've observed.

the idea that men can be victims too, apparently.

Can we not shove words in people's mouths?

Senkaku is a normally reasonable chap. Whose post suggests that he thinks male rape is a problem. There's no reason to villainize and strawman him. In fact it sort of validates his point.

[Neo Balka]

the idea that men can be victims too, apparently.

Can we not shove words in people's mouths?

Senkaku is a normally reasonable chap. Whose post suggests that he thinks male rape is a problem. There's no reason to villainize and strawman him. In fact it sort of validates his point.

brb, fucking dying of laughter.

[Neanderthaland]

Can we not shove words in people's mouths?

Senkaku is a normally reasonable chap. Whose post suggests that he thinks male rape is a problem. There's no reason to villainize and strawman him. In fact it sort of validates his point.

brb, fucking dying of laughter.

I think part of the issue is that the MRA "movement", insofar as any such thing exists, has failed to present itself as a reasonable movement, and instead has gone beyond trying to, say, raise awareness for male rape or problems with reporting female-on-male domestic violence, and has instead espoused all kinds of regressive bullshit- and furthermore, if there are more moderate factions, they've done themselves a disservice by failing to build an effective PR campaign to dismiss the crazies who make them look bad.

That's basically you. Instead of even trying to have a reasoned discussion you just accused him of saying something he clearly didn't, and dismissed him.

You are the problem he describes.

[Lautrec-]

These people live in their own parallel universe where the evil feminists have taken over. I'm pretty sure some people care in some parallel reality where what they claim to happen is actually true

But maybe people would take them more seriously if they didn't try to push their hatred of women through a group that's supposedly about men's issues (yet talks about women and feminists 95% of the time). Also they could have been more respectable if they didn't believe there is some global feminist conspiracy out to get them.

[Neo Balka]

brb, fucking dying of laughter.

I think part of the issue is that the MRA "movement", insofar as any such thing exists, has failed to present itself as a reasonable movement, and instead has gone beyond trying to, say, raise awareness for male rape or problems with reporting female-on-male domestic violence, and has instead espoused all kinds of regressive bullshit- and furthermore, if there are more moderate factions, they've done themselves a disservice by failing to build an effective PR campaign to dismiss the crazies who make them look bad.

That's basically you. Instead of even trying to have a reasoned discussion you just accused him of saying something he clearly didn't, and dismissed him.

You are the problem he describes.

mfw i am the problem.

[Galloism]

These people live in their own parallel universe where the evil feminists have taken over. I'm pretty sure some people care in some parallel reality where what they claim to happen is actually true

But maybe people would take them more seriously if they didn't try to push their hatred of women through a group that's supposedly about men's issues (yet talks about women and feminists 95% of the time). Also they could have been more respectable if they didn't believe there is some global feminist conspiracy out to get them.

Meanwhile, feminists have gotten showings of this exact film killed at multiple venues and locations, and continue to work hard at doing so, even going so far as to strangle this movie in its crib by making any funding for it dry up.

I suggest you watch the film, incidentally. It's not perfect, and I wish she had pushed back harder against the feminist interviewees and the MRAs, but it's pretty decent. I watched it today.

Just keep in mind Elam is an asshole, no matter how palatable he is in the film, and even though he makes many fair points there in. The points are valuable, even if he, as a person, is an asshole.

He styles himself after Malcolm X as I understand, and it doesn't help that I didn't like him either.

[Costa Fierro]

Most people who self-identify as feminist just believe women ought to be treated equally. They're not, by and large, crazy people, despite silly factions that people love to sensationalize and giggle at. Most of the people who self-identify as MRAs are an entirely different story.

So wait, mainstream feminism is full of well meaning people but MRA's are all misogynists? So we're going to ignore the fact that mainstream feminism today is what would have been considered radical feminism 10-20 years ago?

[Neo Balka]

These people live in their own parallel universe where the evil feminists have taken over. I'm pretty sure some people care in some parallel reality where what they claim to happen is actually true

But maybe people would take them more seriously if they didn't try to push their hatred of women through a group that's supposedly about men's issues (yet talks about women and feminists 95% of the time). Also they could have been more respectable if they didn't believe there is some global feminist conspiracy out to get them.

Meanwhile, feminists have gotten showings of this exact film killed at multiple venues and locations, and continue to work hard at doing so, even going so far as to strangle this movie in its crib by making any funding for it dry up.

I suggest you watch the film, incidentally. It's not perfect, and I wish she had pushed back harder against the feminist interviewees and the MRAs, but it's pretty decent. I watched it today.

Just keep in mind Elam is an asshole, no matter how palatable he is in the film, and even though he makes many fair points there in. The points are valuable, even if he, as a person, is an asshole.

He styles himself after Malcolm X as I understand, and it doesn't help that I didn't like him either.

Malcom x...

man, this guy must be great at parties.

[Costa Fierro]

Maybe as women are more equal; MRA issues may not get looked down on as much......

I think part of the issue is that the MRA "movement", insofar as any such thing exists, has failed to present itself as a reasonable movement, and instead has gone beyond trying to, say, raise awareness for male rape or problems with reporting female-on-male domestic violence, and has instead espoused all kinds of regressive bullshit- and furthermore, if there are more moderate factions, they've done themselves a disservice by failing to build an effective PR campaign to dismiss the crazies who make them look bad.

Literally Third Wave feminism.

[Cedoria]

Most people who self-identify as feminist just believe women ought to be treated equally. They're not, by and large, crazy people, despite silly factions that people love to sensationalize and giggle at. Most of the people who self-identify as MRAs are an entirely different story.

So wait, mainstream feminism is full of well meaning people but MRA's are all misogynists? So we're going to ignore the fact that mainstream feminism today is what would have been considered radical feminism 10-20 years ago?

That happens in most movements as things progress and change... Hardly unique to feminism, nor necessarily even a problem.

[Galloism]

So wait, mainstream feminism is full of well meaning people but MRA's are all misogynists? So we're going to ignore the fact that mainstream feminism today is what would have been considered radical feminism 10-20 years ago?

That happens in most movements as things progress and change... Hardly unique to feminism, nor necessarily even a problem.

Except the part where they're now actively protecting rapists and domestic abusers based on the gender of the perpetrator.

Seriously.

[Costa Fierro]

That happens in most movements as things progress and change... Hardly unique to feminism, nor necessarily even a problem.

So feminists perpetuating the idea that men cannot be raped and successfully fighting against the implementation of gender neutral rape laws isn't a problem? What about the feminist organizations that actively argue against government funding for male domestic violence shelters? Is that not a problem?

[Val Halla]

People don't care? That's certainly news to me. Plenty do. From a bunch of different perspectives. But, yknow, MRAs thinking nobody cares despite the fact people care, kinda empowers their agenda.

[Imperializt Russia]

When what they're saying includes things like "all feminists secretly want to be raped" I'm not sure what there is to listen to.

That's part of them unsavory elements I was talking about, right there.

If feminism is regarded solely by its worst elements, then the MRAs can go get fucked too.

[Galloism]

That's part of them unsavory elements I was talking about, right there.

If feminism is regarded solely by its worst elements, then the MRAs can go get fucked too.

Of course, by that standard, every ideology or grouping ever to exist is fucked.

Not that I'm a fan of MRAs either, but we can still cover them both and be slightly more specific than that.

[Jello Biafra]

Just to clarify can anyone name any problems with MRAs that dont directly or inderectly involve feminism or make comparisons with feminism?

Misogyny in general, from certain parts of the movement.

[Donut section]

Just to clarify can anyone name any problems with MRAs that dont directly or inderectly involve feminism or make comparisons with feminism?

Misogyny in general, from certain parts of the movement.

I keep forgetting that men have to be saints to be able to discuss common issues that they face.

[Saint Jade IV]

Because MRAs don't care about the very people whose rights they claim to represent.

Generally, the most vocal MRAs hold to extremely narrow and exclusionary definitions of masculinity that result in significant harm to males. I've seen very, very few MRAs view rape as a problem that happens to men, except in cases where it can be used in sad attempts to discredit feminists.

This is a major complaint of mine. They're too wrapped up in false accusations to see the actual problem that men make up 40-60% of rape victims, at least among adults. This is like taking note of and being annoyed by a gnat while you're getting hit by a freight train.

The issue of child custody is another example. The reason mothers tend to receive custody is because they still tend to be primary caregivers of the children. MRAs don't want this to change, but seem to feel that their financial contribution should be sufficient to gain them custody of their children, regardless of the best interests of the child.

Actually, this isn't necessarily true. Women are assumed to be primary caregivers unless proven otherwise in most courts. In truth, most caregiving is a much more equal affair than it used to be (although it's still not equal).

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... day-facts/

And yet, the custody patterns haven't changed despite this change in factual circumstances. A lot of this has to do with "primary caregiver" legislation, which states that, generally, if one parent does 51% of the caregiving, and the other does 49% of the caregiving, then the one doing 51% gets full custody and the 49% parent gets the child every other weekend and a week in the summer time. MRAs have been by and large opposed to this, and more in favor of equality legislation (IE, half time with each parent as a presumption), but that's only because "best interest of the child" is de facto "mommy gets custody" in the real world. This has lots to do with presuppositions regarding women's ability vs mens, even by judges.

http://tomjameslaw.com/blog/what-judges ... #fn-853-12

Relevant quotes:

Another survey, this one commissioned by the Minnesota Supreme Court, found that a majority (56%) of the state’s judges, both male and female, agreed with the statement, “I believe young children belong with their mother.” Only a few of the judges indicated that they would need more information about the mother before they could answer. Fathers, one judge explained, “must prove their ability to parent while mothers are assumed to be able.”4 Another judge commented, “I believe that God has given women a psychological makeup that is better tuned to caring for small children.”5

Judges’ self-reporting of their prejudices against fathers was consistent with practicing attorneys’ impressions of them. 69% of male attorneys had come to the conclusion that judges always or often assume from the outset (i.e., before being presented with any evidence) that children belong with their mothers. 40% of the female attorneys agreed with that assessment. Nearly all attorneys (94% of male attorneys and 84% of female attorneys) said that all judges exhibited prejudice against fathers at least some of the time.6

Similar findings have been made in court-sponsored gender bias studies conducted in other states. The Maryland study, for example, found that most attorneys perceived that it is either always or often the case that “[c]ustody awards to mothers are based on the assumption that children belong with their mothers.”7 A follow-up study conducted in 2001 “still indicates a preference to award mothers custody.”8 The majority of attorneys, both male and female, agreed that fathers either did not always get treated fairly in custody proceedings, or that they “often” did not. 6% of judges, 17% of female attorneys and 29% of male attorneys went so far as to say that no father ever receives fair treatment in a Maryland custody proceeding.9 Surveys of judges in Maryland, Missouri, Texas and Washington found that a majority of judges were unable to say that they usually give fathers fair consideration in custody cases.10 This matched the perception of members of the bar.11

When the system is overwhelmingly provably institutionally sexist, you want the law to be such that judges must start from a nonsexist position.

MRAs have not been vocal about equalising paternity leave with maternity leave, nor have they been vocal about the rights of stay at home fathers to respect and support.

Actually, they've been vocal about both of these things. You just haven't been listening.

And now I have to watch the budget.

Budget watching is important.

I'm a little too drunk to break down your response like I should. I am going to touch on the custody thing though. A significant body of research shows that women are still doing a significant amount more of the domestic labour and child rearing than men. I have the papers and will post them when less...socially excited than I am right now.

Additionally, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. I don't hear MRAs complaining about paternity leave policies etc. - perhaps because their voices are drowned out by those seeking to use the movement to resurrect harmful and toxic constructions of masculinity that get more airplay because their soundbites create better clickbait.

[Jello Biafra]

Misogyny in general, from certain parts of the movement.

I keep forgetting that men have to be saints to be able to discuss common issues that they face.

Men can discuss common issues that they face without saying that women beg to be raped, or that any man who is accused of rape should be acquitted in a trial.

As long as were focusing on the extreme, how about feminists claiming we need to castrate teenage boys to end rape? Seen that more than a few times. Or all the ones who cheered on a Russian woman when she kidnapped a wannabe burglar, and kept him as a sex slave? Or the time they sent death threats to, and murdered the dog of the founder of the worlds first domestic violence shelter. Point is, if you only pay attention to the radicals, you can find insane people in any movement.

It was racists who killed Erin Pizzey's dog, not feminists.

And if this patriarchy exists, why send men to die in the battlefields and not women, if women are worse why don't we send them into the mud and blood, while we sit in the green fields beyond? (pls get the reference).

Fewer men around means more women for patriarchs.

[The BlAAtschApen]

Wait, you're unofficially a part of it.

Can one become officially a part of it? Is there a membership process?

I guess it's like any other identifier in the sense that you can just say something if it fits. It's why I also now identify as a masculinist because I'm for the rights of men and boys. Then again I also hate identity politics so...

Alright, time to start an official club.

I'll be the president, and the membership fee is $500 per year.

Except when you're in the board of course. Democracy is for women, authority is for men. No elections.

[Imperializt Russia]

Because MRAs don't care about the very people whose rights they claim to represent.

Generally, the most vocal MRAs hold to extremely narrow and exclusionary definitions of masculinity that result in significant harm to males. I've seen very, very few MRAs view rape as a problem that happens to men, except in cases where it can be used in sad attempts to discredit feminists.

This is a major complaint of mine. They're too wrapped up in false accusations to see the actual problem that men make up 40-60% of rape victims, at least among adults. This is like taking note of and being annoyed by a gnat while you're getting hit by a freight train.

40-60%? That figure is astounding.

I recall seeing UK estimates that up to 85,000 women and 12,000 men were raped annually (probably England & Wales rather than the UK as a whole) (these figures appear in the annual Crime Survey England and Wales, based on aggregates for the 2009-2012 reporting years, and compare with only 16,000 incidents of rape being reported to the police in 2011/12. That figure is from the gov.uk summary of 2011/12 sexual assault data which does not discuss victim's sex for this figure, but I haven't read the actual attached files (as they are downloads, not open-in-window kind of files).
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/an-overview-of-sexual-offending-in-england-and-wales

Further up, the CSEW also notes and estimated 404,000 female adult victims of sexual offences of all types, and 72,000 men. This ratio correlates very closely with the CSEW estimated incidence of rape against women and men.
I believe rape of a man by a woman (PIV) is classified as a broader sexual crime in the UK and note definition "rape", which makes this correlation very interesting.

[Imperializt Russia]

Along with all the stuff about how a man forcing himself on his wife isn't rape because marriage equals consent?

As long as were focusing on the extreme, how about feminists claiming we need to castrate teenage boys to end rape? Seen that more than a few times. Or all the ones who cheered on a Russian woman when she kidnapped a wannabe burglar, and kept him as a sex slave? -snip because covered by another poster- Point is, if you only pay attention to the radicals, you can find insane people in any movement.

Would you care to cite either of these examples?

I can't imagine why "feminists" would "cheer on" a woman who kidnapped a burglar and subjected him to sex slavery. I have heard of quote-unquote "women" laughing about that, but not "feminists".
It sounds like the kind of humour that UK magazine TakeaBreak utilised in one of its adverts, of a group of women discussing articles in the magazine at a table, presumably on a work break. One woman, referring to an article of a cheating man, said "if it were me, I'd put him through the salami slicer".
I, a friend (both men who would/consider identifying as "feminists") and his mother all sent reports to the advertising standards agency, and within a few weeks, a recut version of the ad omitting that "joke" ran.

E: I suspect this is the recut version of the ad. It is possible that the two lines "strap him to the bed in what way?" - "not in a good way" were the lines that replaced the "salami slicer" line.

[Costa Fierro]

I guess it's like any other identifier in the sense that you can just say something if it fits. It's why I also now identify as a masculinist because I'm for the rights of men and boys. Then again I also hate identity politics so...

Alright, time to start an official club.

I'll be the president, and the membership fee is $500 per year.

Except when you're in the board of course. Democracy is for women, authority is for men. No elections.

We should build a treehouse and put a sign up that says "no girls allowed".