I beg to differ, you clearly have issues with Christians. Clearly we disgust you to the point where you can't even stomach a conversation with us. Your words, not mine.
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by Tarsonis Survivors » Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:39 am
by Anywhere Else But Here » Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:46 am
by Tarsonis Survivors » Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:50 am
Anywhere Else But Here wrote:Tarsonis Survivors wrote:
I beg to differ, you clearly have issues with Christians. Clearly we disgust you to the point where you can't even stomach a conversation with us. Your words, not mine.
Being disgusted by an aspect of your beliefs is not the same as hatred for an entire person or group.
by Pasong Tirad » Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:52 am
by Lady Scylla » Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:53 am
Dylar wrote:Lady Scylla wrote:
It's a discussion thread. Moderation doesn't like the prospect of limiting such in these threads. If that's a problem, then converse in a church. You either allow non-believers, and let them argue from their POV -- or you disallow them and turn this thread into an echo chamber where you don't have to worry about your opinions being questioned. The latter isn't good discourse.
I think what UMN is trying to say is that non-believers are just as welcome as any Christian on this thread, and we encourage them to ask questions about our faith(s), it's just that those non-believers shouldn't come in with guns ablazin' with a heart of stone unwilling to listen to what we have to say.
by Tarsonis Survivors » Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:58 am
Lady Scylla wrote:Dylar wrote:I think what UMN is trying to say is that non-believers are just as welcome as any Christian on this thread, and we encourage them to ask questions about our faith(s), it's just that those non-believers shouldn't come in with guns ablazin' with a heart of stone unwilling to listen to what we have to say.
Fair point, but this goes both ways.
by Thermodolia » Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:12 am
by Salus Maior » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:20 am
by Pasong Tirad » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:27 am
Salus Maior wrote:Do any of you guys know of any good sources that I can read up on/watch through on Catholicism and Orthodoxy? Historically and Theologically speaking.
by Salus Maior » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:31 am
by United Muscovite Nations » Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:05 am
Tarsonis Survivors wrote:Lady Scylla wrote:
It's a discussion thread. Moderation doesn't like the prospect of limiting such in these threads. If that's a problem, then converse in a church. You either allow non-believers, and let them argue from their POV -- or you disallow them and turn this thread into an echo chamber where you don't have to worry about your opinions being questioned. The latter isn't good discourse.
There's nothing wrong with Non-Beliverser/Atheists/Agnostics/What have you contributing to this thread. The problem is people who post in bad faith. AWEBH is not contributing in good faith, but rather tilting at their perceived demon of "Christianity." Their purpose here is not to engage in lively and respectful discourse about the finer points of Christianity, what it means, what it teaches, its history etc etc. Their purpose, since they've been here has been aimed at "defeating" Christianity, to tell us that we're all evil.
Look at my interaction with AWEBH, I gave two calmly (edited greatly to reduce my palpable annoyance) on the subject, and both times their response was not a critical analysis but basically "that's evil, you're evil, you disgust me, your beliefs disgust me, etc etc" That sort of attitude isn't welcome or appropriate here, though we can't outright ban in from showing up here, as evidenced by the multiple iterations here.
by Dylar » Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:14 am
St. Albert the Great wrote:"Natural science does not consist in ratifying what others have said, but in seeking the causes of phenomena."
Franko Tildon wrote:Fire washes the skin off the bone and the sin off the soul. It cleans away the dirt. And my momma didn't raise herself no dirty boy.
by United Muscovite Nations » Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:17 am
Salus Maior wrote:Do any of you guys know of any good sources that I can read up on/watch through on Catholicism and Orthodoxy? Historically and Theologically speaking.
by Luminesa » Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:24 am
United Muscovite Nations wrote:Tarsonis Survivors wrote:
There's nothing wrong with Non-Beliverser/Atheists/Agnostics/What have you contributing to this thread. The problem is people who post in bad faith. AWEBH is not contributing in good faith, but rather tilting at their perceived demon of "Christianity." Their purpose here is not to engage in lively and respectful discourse about the finer points of Christianity, what it means, what it teaches, its history etc etc. Their purpose, since they've been here has been aimed at "defeating" Christianity, to tell us that we're all evil.
Look at my interaction with AWEBH, I gave two calmly (edited greatly to reduce my palpable annoyance) on the subject, and both times their response was not a critical analysis but basically "that's evil, you're evil, you disgust me, your beliefs disgust me, etc etc" That sort of attitude isn't welcome or appropriate here, though we can't outright ban in from showing up here, as evidenced by the multiple iterations here.
This.
I am happy to see non-Christians post constructively here about theology. But I fail to see how questions only tangentially related to theology, the Christian faith, and the practice thereof, are constructive. It's like people going onto the transgender or LGBT threads with the express purpose of trolling the community there. Granted, some might see me as occasionally doing that, but I try to limit my posting there to simply offering another perspective, instead of actually attacking the perspective of the community.
Many of the atheists who frequent this thread (and I say atheists because I don't think I have ever seen someone of another faith do this) are here to attack Christianity, not to discuss Christian theology or practice.
by Luminesa » Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:27 am
Lady Scylla wrote:Dylar wrote:I think what UMN is trying to say is that non-believers are just as welcome as any Christian on this thread, and we encourage them to ask questions about our faith(s), it's just that those non-believers shouldn't come in with guns ablazin' with a heart of stone unwilling to listen to what we have to say.
Fair point, but this goes both ways.
by Diopolis » Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:55 am
United Muscovite Nations wrote:Tarsonis Survivors wrote:
There's nothing wrong with Non-Beliverser/Atheists/Agnostics/What have you contributing to this thread. The problem is people who post in bad faith. AWEBH is not contributing in good faith, but rather tilting at their perceived demon of "Christianity." Their purpose here is not to engage in lively and respectful discourse about the finer points of Christianity, what it means, what it teaches, its history etc etc. Their purpose, since they've been here has been aimed at "defeating" Christianity, to tell us that we're all evil.
Look at my interaction with AWEBH, I gave two calmly (edited greatly to reduce my palpable annoyance) on the subject, and both times their response was not a critical analysis but basically "that's evil, you're evil, you disgust me, your beliefs disgust me, etc etc" That sort of attitude isn't welcome or appropriate here, though we can't outright ban in from showing up here, as evidenced by the multiple iterations here.
This.
I am happy to see non-Christians post constructively here about theology. But I fail to see how questions only tangentially related to theology, the Christian faith, and the practice thereof, are constructive. It's like people going onto the transgender or LGBT threads with the express purpose of trolling the community there. Granted, some might see me as occasionally doing that, but I try to limit my posting there to simply offering another perspective, instead of actually attacking the perspective of the community.
Many of the atheists who frequent this thread (and I say atheists because I don't think I have ever seen someone of another faith do this) are here to attack Christianity, not to discuss Christian theology or practice.
by Diopolis » Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:13 am
United Muscovite Nations wrote:Salus Maior wrote:Do any of you guys know of any good sources that I can read up on/watch through on Catholicism and Orthodoxy? Historically and Theologically speaking.
Good Orthodox websites:
Orthodo Church in America -- official website. Includes good question & answer sections, scripture readings, lives of saints, and some essays on the finer points of theology.
Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America -- Official website. Includes much of the above.
Antiochian Archdiocese of North America -- official website. Also has much of the above.
OrthodoxWiki -- a Wiki maintained by Orthodox people who contribute articles on Church history, theology, etc.
Russian Orthodox Church -- Official website. Probably the most expansive Orthodox media website in-existence. Available in multiple languages. In addition to news and stuff on Church history and theology, it also hosts articles by clergy on various things, from theology, politics, everything.
As for Roman Catholicism, the Catholics here can probably find more stuff, but really the gold standard would be the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church, here available in English on the Vatican's official website.
I hope this helps.
It's much harder to find stuff on the Oriental Orthodox Church in english, but here is a collection of Coptic sermons in English: http://www.orthodoxsermons.org/
by Constantinopolis » Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:57 am
Anywhere Else But Here wrote:This is the thing I can't understand about religion. You claim to be moral, you'll condemn horrific actions, except when they're performed by your god.
by The Alma Mater » Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:59 am
Constantinopolis wrote:Anywhere Else But Here wrote:This is the thing I can't understand about religion. You claim to be moral, you'll condemn horrific actions, except when they're performed by your god.
Do you condemn immoral actions performed by wolves? Jellyfish? Ants? Hypothetical alien civilizations? Artificial intelligence?
No. And why not? Because they're not human. Human morality does not apply to non-humans. Atheists understand this every time I've talked to them in the context of science-fiction and robots or aliens are brought up, but then you suddenly forget it when it comes to God.
by Constantinopolis » Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:04 pm
The Alma Mater wrote:Constantinopolis wrote:Do you condemn immoral actions performed by wolves? Jellyfish? Ants? Hypothetical alien civilizations? Artificial intelligence?
No. And why not? Because they're not human. Human morality does not apply to non-humans. Atheists understand this every time I've talked to them in the context of science-fiction and robots or aliens are brought up, but then you suddenly forget it when it comes to God.
Maybe because they never heard a jellyfish telling them what is right or wrong?
The Alma Mater wrote:However, following you reasoning, the logical conclusion is that God, while not immoral, is an enemy of humanity. Just like how humans are an enemy of the hornets who made their nest near a childrens playground.
by The Alma Mater » Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:06 pm
No, God is an enemy of early 21st century Western civilization.
Do not confuse your own particular culture at a particular point in history with "Humanity" in general. The conflict between you and God comes entirely from your cultural standards and the ideas you were brought up to believe in.
by Constantinopolis » Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:14 pm
The Alma Mater wrote:Constantinopolis wrote:No, God is an enemy of early 21st century Western civilization.
Do not confuse your own particular culture at a particular point in history with "Humanity" in general. The conflict between you and God comes entirely from your cultural standards and the ideas you were brought up to believe in.
Fair enough.
Still, what should the consequence of that be ?
by Conscentia » Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:16 pm
Constantinopolis wrote:Anywhere Else But Here wrote:This is the thing I can't understand about religion. You claim to be moral, you'll condemn horrific actions, except when they're performed by your god.
Do you condemn immoral actions performed by wolves? Jellyfish? Ants? Hypothetical alien civilizations? Artificial intelligence?
No. And why not? Because they're not human. Human morality does not apply to non-humans. Atheists understand this every time I've talked to them in the context of science-fiction and robots or aliens are brought up, but then you suddenly forget it when it comes to God.
Most atheists are intelligent people capable of understanding complex philosophical issues. But then as soon as God comes into the discussion, it's as if you put blinders on and forget everything you know. You're fine with the Prime Directive in Star Trek, but condemn God for not following the cultural standards of early 21st century Western civilization. It's extremely odd.
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by The Alma Mater » Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:18 pm
Constantinopolis wrote:The Alma Mater wrote:Never heard those ssying such things either.
Well, in scifi - but as hinted hunanity tends to fight the aliens that see us as food and such in that
Asimov's robots, on the other hand, are morally superior to humans in every way, and (in the latter part of the timeline) seek to control and shape human history for the humans' own good. I would absolutely side with the robots and fight against their enemies.
The consequence is that Christians should fight against present-day Western civilization and seek to change it. Christians should absolutely NOT see themselves as part of Western civilization, but rather as a sort of resistance movement that exists within it. We live inside an anti-Christian culture and it's long past time we acted like it.
by Constantinopolis » Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:22 pm
The Alma Mater wrote:Constantinopolis wrote:The consequence is that Christians should fight against present-day Western civilization and seek to change it. Christians should absolutely NOT see themselves as part of Western civilization, but rather as a sort of resistance movement that exists within it. We live inside an anti-Christian culture and it's long past time we acted like it.
I see. And what should the non-christians do after this declaration of war ?
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