Should Marvel Tone Down It's Politics?

[Seangoli]

Nope. Ozymandias is the hero. Rorschach is his enemy. So Rorschach is the villain.

The fact that he kills some bad guys in the way doesn't make him the good guy.

I don't think I would classify Ozymandias as a hero.... literally the whole series was him murdering his previously retired teammates and setting up an alien invasion/nuclear attack that would decimate NYC, to delay a nuclear war between the US and Russia.

I would not call that 'heroic'.

One of the major themes of The Watchmen was dispelling the concept of villains and heroes. Ozymandias is honestly neither, and the same can be said for Night Owl, Silk Specter, Rorschach and Dr. Manhattan. They were deeply flawed characters, whose motivations were ultimately far from Heroic. Dan had intense feeling of inadequacy that only donning the Night Owl mantle and seeking out violent confrontations could fill. Laurie doesn't care for the hero lifestyle at all, and it was thrown upon her. She is more motivated out of sexual desire (First by her attraction to Dr. Manhattan, then leaving him for Dan), and like Dan gets her kicks out of acting the hero at times. Rorschach is motivated by an unflinching sociopathic ethos, and is willing to let millions upon millions die in the name of justice. His unwavering morality, if you can call it that, makes it almost impossible for him to see anyone as good or innocent, and he sees only the worst in everyone and may infact be fabricating some events to fit his narrative.

Adrian views himself as some form of hero sacrificing thousands to save millions. The fundamental issue is pointed out by Dr. Manhattan. Adrian viewed his actions as a means to an end, and Dr. Manhattan correctly pointed out that the world Adrian created was not "the end" at all. At best he bought the world a temporary peace, yet human violence and hostility will continue on until the next world-ending conflict. Yet even that isn't the full meaning of Dr. Manhattan's words. The truth of the matter is that Adrian's actions are meaningless when viewed on a cosmic scale. Humanity would have continued on, the world would have continued on, the galaxy would have continued on, and the universe would have continued on. In the grand scheme of time and space, Adrian did absolutely nothing of note. He has about as much of an impact on it all as a the world's smartest termite. All Adrian truly accomplished was killing thousands of people.

Dr. Manhattan, obviously, is neither hero nor villain. The Comedian correctly figured this part out in Vietnam when John did nothing to stop him from killing a pregnant woman. He is detached from humanity, and views things on such a cosmic scale that just transcends any concept of morality.

[The first Galactic Republic]

See: one of Marvel's most interesting villains -- Magneto. truly interesting because he 'makes the hard choices' to 'defend his people' -- He's 100% convinced that he's right, and as much as it sucks it's what he HAS to do. He's not a lol villain like Doctor Doom or the Red Skull -- a power-hungry tyrant. He thinks he is the hero and even expresses regret that the world ISN'T the way his friend Xavier thinks it is.

They should work on fleshing out more characters, hero and villain alike, in this manner, tbh.

Not entirely fair on Doom - all he does is for the good of his people. In fact,of all the multiverses, only in the one where Doom is the supreme ruler is there peace and safety

That's never something I agreed with. Doom is constantly screwing things up and then leaving the heroes to pick up the pieces and some writer with a hard on for him wants us to believe that?

Another stupid lore feat is Punisher being able to resist the penance stare from ghost rider, which shouldn't be possible. Sometimes writers go a bit overboard.

[The first Galactic Republic]

I always thought the X-Men made more sense as a gun rights thing. They're feared because they openly walk around with enough built-in firepower to level a city block in many cases. People didn't fear them because they looked different (The coolest X-Men looked just like normal people) but because they had 'weapons.'

Magneto and several others where attacked because they where different. Magneto himself was imprisoned by the Nazis during the holocaust and watched his parents die at the hands of the Nazis

Didn't they put Magneto in the concentration camp because he was Jewish though? Then they found out he had his powers?

[Vassenor]

Screeching "snowflake" and "SJWs" without any compelling reason to take the peyoratives seriously is no different from screeching "nazi" and "racist" without explanation.

1/10

Not really.....

But i think marvel recently did a press thing about the whole "diversity" schtick that they had, apparently sales didnt improve much.

Yeah, you're miscontextualising that. It wasn't that diversity was bad. It was that diversity for the sake of it (what we used to call tokenism) wasn't a good thing.

[Venerable Bede]

Technically he is, if you use the classical definition of an "antihero."

Nope. Ozymandias is the hero. Rorschach is his enemy. So Rorschach is the villain.

The fact that he kills some bad guys in the way doesn't make him the good guy.

Ozymandias is only a relative hero if you subscribe to pure consequentialism and subscribe to his probability. But even then, he's not a hero by any definition of the word. He's not a noble or courageous person by either classical standards or post-Christian standards. He's not a hero by narrative convention either.

[Thermodolia]

Magneto and several others where attacked because they where different. Magneto himself was imprisoned by the Nazis during the holocaust and watched his parents die at the hands of the Nazis

Didn't they put Magneto in the concentration camp because he was Jewish though? Then they found out he had his powers?

Yes, I thought I made that clear

[Wallenburg]

The success of many of their other characters would suggest otherwise.

Financial success is not really related to financial success. If it were, Michael Bay would be homeless.

I do not follow.

[Ifreann]

If anything it should tone them up- they're still half hearted. Let's see Anarky become a hero!
Edit: To my shame, I remember that Anarky is actually DC.

Stealing Anarky and making him a hero would be pretty political.

[Valgora]

Financial success is not really related to financial success. If it were, Michael Bay would be homeless.

I do not follow.

It's because Michael Bay is a shit director.
And he's made shitty movies.

[Insaeldor]

A company can have its products be as political as it likes, you as a consumer can decline to give these companies money who have political messages to their products. Pretty simple Capitalism 101 going on here.

[Hurdergaryp]

I do not follow.

It's because Michael Bay is a shit director.
And he's made shitty movies.

But they were most certainly financially successful, so I understand why Wallenburg does not follow. And even though it is true that Bay is a dedicated schlockmeister, not all his work is instant dreck.

[Smernosh Smercova]

No, absolutely not. In a time where far-right racism is on the rise, it is more important than ever to state that you do not approve. I fully support Marvel in its endeavor.

[New haven america]

It's because Michael Bay is a shit director.
And he's made shitty movies.

But they were most certainly financially successful, so I understand why Wallenburg does not follow. And even though it is true that Bay is a dedicated schlockmeister, not all his work is instant dreck.

13 Hours is actually pretty decent...

[Hurdergaryp]

But they were most certainly financially successful, so I understand why Wallenburg does not follow. And even though it is true that Bay is a dedicated schlockmeister, not all his work is instant dreck.

13 Hours is actually pretty decent...

The second Transformers movie is a guilty pleasure, the third one is actually my favorite.

And there goes my credibility.

[Valgora]

13 Hours is actually pretty decent...

The second Transformers movie is a guilty pleasure, the third one is actually my favorite.

And there goes my credibility.

How?

I didn't even get halfway through the second Transformers.

[Southerly Gentleman]

I say we just ban comic books and superhero movies altogether

what are ya gonna do about it, nerds

[Wallenburg]

I do not follow.

It's because Michael Bay is a shit director.
And he's made shitty movies.

And yet he and his movies make a lot of money.

[Ifreann]

I say we just ban comic books and superhero movies altogether

what are ya gonna do about it, nerds

Delete your bank account and email your internet history to your mother.

[New haven america]

I say we just ban comic books and superhero movies altogether

what are ya gonna do about it, nerds

Actually, most comic book movie fans are currently casual viewers, so you should be asking "What are ya you do about it casuals?"

[Grave_n_idle]

Nope. Ozymandias is the hero. Rorschach is his enemy. So Rorschach is the villain.

The fact that he kills some bad guys in the way doesn't make him the good guy.

Ozymandias is only a relative hero if you subscribe to pure consequentialism and subscribe to his probability. But even then, he's not a hero by any definition of the word. He's not a noble or courageous person by either classical standards or post-Christian standards. He's not a hero by narrative convention either.

He goes up against the only actual superpower in the Watchmen universe, he goes against the other Watchmen. He certainly has courage.

He sees what has to be done - has to - and he does it, regardless of the personal cost and the risks he's going to face to get there.

There's some blood on his hands, but that's never stopped anyone counting as a hero before.

[Southerly Gentleman]

I say we just ban comic books and superhero movies altogether

what are ya gonna do about it, nerds

Delete your bank account and email your internet history to your mother.

But muh escapism and inferiority complex....

[Neo Balka]

No, absolutely not. In a time where far-right racism is on the rise, it is more important than ever to state that you do not approve. I fully support Marvel in its endeavor.

To have Al qaeda draw its comics?

[The first Galactic Republic]

Stealing Anarky and making him a hero would be pretty political.

*They try to sue*
*Anarky himself argues against them in court*
*Criticizes copywrite law*

He was pretty cool in the cartoon.

[New Grestin]

Absolutely not. With the current political landscape of the United States, we need dissenting voices against the administration and those that want to divide this country. If Marvel writers want to express their opinions about that through comic books, then it's their god-given right to do so.

And frankly, having the literal embodiment of America, Captain America, being recruited by a literal nazi and an army of conservatives to fight against illegal immigration is just delightfully apropos given how things have been lately.

It's pretty clear that the OP is only upset because, gasp, people actually have opposing viewpoints to the new right-wing hegemony.

[Neo Balka]

Absolutely not. With the current political landscape of the United States, we need dissenting voices against the administration and those that want to divide this country. If Marvel writers want to express their opinions about that through comic books, then it's their god-given right to do so.

And frankly, having the literal embodiment of America, Captain America, being recruited by a literal nazi and an army of conservatives to fight against illegal immigration is just delightfully apropos given how things have been lately.

It's pretty clear that the OP is only upset because, gasp, people actually have opposing viewpoints to the new right-wing hegemony.

>Right wing hegemony..

Are you blind?