Irish Politics Thread: Stormont talks collapse

[Ifreann]

So, the reverse version of what the pro-life crowd do in America.

I'd rather just have a referendum.

Yeah, thats what everyone wants. In fact, there were several thousand people chanting "Enda Enda where's the referenda" outside Dáil Éireann last night. All people are asking for is a referendum. Government constantly delays, ignores, refuses, stalls etc, so bills like this are the best we could hope for any time soon.

Not really, though. It was obviously not going to go anywhere and I dare say was introduced just to take advantage of the popular support for repealing the 8th. Really, who is going to support making the punishment for abortion trivial who wouldn't support a referendum on repealing the 8th? So the only way this bill could pass is if there were enough people in the Dail who would pass a bill calling a referendum.

[The Grene Knyght]

Yeah, thats what everyone wants. In fact, there were several thousand people chanting "Enda Enda where's the referenda" outside Dáil Éireann last night. All people are asking for is a referendum. Government constantly delays, ignores, refuses, stalls etc, so bills like this are the best we could hope for any time soon.

Not really, though. It was obviously not going to go anywhere and I dare say was introduced just to take advantage of the popular support for repealing the 8th. Really, who is going to support making the punishment for abortion trivial who wouldn't support a referendum on repealing the 8th? So the only way this bill could pass is if there were enough people in the Dail who would pass a bill calling a referendum.

well, virtually no one supports the current punishment (which is what, 12 years in prison? 14 years?) - which is clear from the fact that it has never been enforced. But I see what you're getting at, and yeah, I wasn't really expecting it to pass. But its still an important thing to see - which parties support the bill, and which didn't. Sinn Féin said they supported it, but abstained. Fianna Fáil were given a vote of conscience, but 3/41 voted in favour of it. This is pretty important, since both are fairly populist in nature.

But yeah, bills like this are the best we can hope for from the current government, who outright said they will not support a referendum on the issue this year. Its not a big hope - no one is expecting it to happen nor is this what people are primarily campaigning for. Its not likely to happen nor is it expected to. Its certainly not ideal. But its a hell of a lot more likely than a referendum.

And on your point about this being a ploy by those involved to take advantage of popular support - some of those involved have been campaigning on the issue since the 80s. Others literally lead the marches on Wednesday. I think they were genuine in the sentiment that this was an important bill that they wanted passed. You could argue that they knew it wouldn't be passed, and that certainly may have been the case, but I would imagine it would only have been to ensure the government doesn't forget about the issue - they seem to have mastered the art of selective amnesia.

---

Also, apparently AAA have changed their name to Solidarity
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics ... -1.3004671
About time lol. The old name was getting, well, old.

[Alvalero]

Solidarity, because thats not a creepy 1984 style name at all! Like UKIP, once austerity measures end the party becomes obsolete as an idea and will therefore need to change or become unelectable. A name change wont get me to give them a pitty 4th or 5th preference, its having some agreeable policies moving forward.

As for a referendum, I agree that we should just have one and get it over and done with. I support the idea of having the choice of abortion as there are numerous factors where it makes sense to have one, however I'm not in favour of it being taxpayer funded regardless of the situation. Your body, your choice, your money.

[Anollasia]

Oh my God! They killed Kenny! You bastards!

Oh wait, Kenny survived.

[The Grene Knyght]

once austerity measures end the party becomes obsolete as an idea and will therefore need to change or become unelectable.

Thats literally the point of the name change.

[Alvalero]

once austerity measures end the party becomes obsolete as an idea and will therefore need to change or become unelectable.

Thats literally the point of the name change.

Really? I never would have guessed!

[Collatis]

Fianna Fáil leads Fine Gael by 1 point. Sinn Féin is on the rise.

[The Grene Knyght]

Fianna Fáil leads Fine Gael by 1 point. Sinn Féin is on the rise.

upsetting but inevitable....

[Collatis]

Sinn Féin has surpassed Fine Gael and is now in second place

[Socialist Mercanda]

Sinn Féin has surpassed Fine Gael and is now in second place

Scary

At least the fuckers won't overtake FF

[The Grene Knyght]

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/us-president-donald-trump-will-visit-ireland-during-presidency-35537632.html
welp

[Ifreann]

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/us-president-donald-trump-will-visit-ireland-during-presidency-35537632.html
welp

Start making your "Down with this sort of thing!" signs now.

[The Huskar Social Union]

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/us-president-donald-trump-will-visit-ireland-during-presidency-35537632.html
welp

Start making your "Down with this sort of thing!" signs now.

Careful now.

[Ifreann]

Oh gods, I hope Trump's limo gets stuck on the speed bump like Obama's did.

[Chestaan]

Solidarity, because thats not a creepy 1984 style name at all! Like UKIP, once austerity measures end the party becomes obsolete as an idea and will therefore need to change or become unelectable. A name change wont get me to give them a pitty 4th or 5th preference, its having some agreeable policies moving forward.

As for a referendum, I agree that we should just have one and get it over and done with. I support the idea of having the choice of abortion as there are numerous factors where it makes sense to have one, however I'm not in favour of it being taxpayer funded regardless of the situation. Your body, your choice, your money.

I usually would support the party, but I fear that this name change might signal a change away from economic and socialist issues and a greater focus on social issues. There should be campaigns on social issues but the central purpose of the party should always be demanding a transition to socialism.

[Dylar]

I gotta say, as a pro-lifer(Is it cringy if I say "pro-life activist"? Sounds cringy to me), I 100% support the 8th Amendment. Aside from that, I know nothing about Irish politics, as I live in the 'States, and don't really care about politics(even though I'm starting to develop a small interest in politics. Thanks NS!) so...what's going on in Ireland? Are they repealing the 8th? Or is something else going on?

[Socialist Mercanda]

I gotta say, as a pro-lifer(Is it cringy if I say "pro-life activist"? Sounds cringy to me), I 100% support the 8th Amendment. Aside from that, I know nothing about Irish politics, as I live in the 'States, and don't really care about politics(even though I'm starting to develop a small interest in politics. Thanks NS!) so...what's going on in Ireland? Are they repealing the 8th? Or is something else going on?

A repeal of the 8th would require a referendum, as any amendment to our Constitution requires a referendum. I completely support the repealing of the 8th Amendment. The Citizens' Assembly should report to the government soon on what to do on the issue; although polling by the Irish Times in October showed almost 75% of voters support a repeal.

A lot of focus is on N. Ireland. There doesn't seem to be a possibility of a restoration of the power-sharing executive, meaning there could either be another election up North or a return to rule by Westminster.

[Spaceman Spliff]

Someone mentioned reunifying the Emerald Isle, and incompetence by orange and green idiots?
Figures. That glorious resource of power they need to wield in order to keep Theresa off their necks has started to run out. Back to unfiltered unitarism, lads.

[The Grene Knyght]

So I'm sure many of you have seen Kenny's speech with Trump, which is going viral with his discussion of st. patrick being an immigrant (clip here: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/wa ... 41759.html)
What are your thoughts on this? I have a few myself:

So, Enda Kenny brought up immigration with Trump. This is great. I’m not saying this isn’t great. But fuck Enda Kenny. Why? Well let me start off with some context for the non-Irish people here.

Kenny’s going to America was already controversial. There was widespread criticism of the action. Here’s the petition (almost 40,000 signatures) which called for him to cancel the visit in protest of Trump’s policies:
https://my.uplift.ie/petitions/shamrock-not-in-my-name?source=twitter-share-email-button&time=1485675487

We’ve had plenty of anti-trump protests here, before and after the meeting:
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/hundreds-attend-protest-against-trump-at-us-embassy-1.2961579http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/irish-americans-staged-cultural-protest-against-donald-trumps-planned-visit-to-ireland-445563.html

He has been urged by forces within the Dáil to refuse to visit the States in protest of Trump’s actions:
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/enda-kenny-urged-to-boycott-st-patrick-s-day-trump-meeting-1.2938797
https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0129/848528-us-immigration-ban-ireland/

So, okay, maybe Kenny just wanted to make the point in person. Maybe he wanted to bring his critique of Trump’s policies to his face. That’d be great. After all, during the US election, Kenny called him “racist and dangerous.” Except a few days ago Kenny rescinded the comment:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlCLVbyjvt0

So if this speech was a critique of Trumps policies, it was, I think we can agree, fairly spineless. Its already clear if there was a criticism here, it was only implied - Kenny never says anything outright about trumps policies or about emigration other than Irish-American emigration. Compounded with his rescinding of his previous criticisms, its rendered pretty much meaningless. But I’d like to go even further. I would argue that, even ignoring all that, Enda Kenny’s speech wasn’t about Trump’s Muslim ban, or his policies, or anything like that. Since day one of Trump’s election, Kenny has been concerned about keeping the J1 programme (the programme allowing Irish migrants to work in the US) (http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/enda-kenny-denies-being-snubbed-by-donald-trump-766869.html). In fact, the J1 programme has always been on Kenny’s agenda (http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/kenny-says-he-is-very-concerned-about-future-of-j1-1.2382995), even his daughter went on a J1. He’s also been concerned recently with irish-emigrant voting rights - announcing a few days before Paddy’s day, for example, an upcoming referendum on allowing Irish citizens abroad to vote, and furthermore announcing that he would, when visiting Trump, press him to support illegal Irish immigrants in the US (https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0312/859078-st-patricks-day/). Not immigrants from any other country. Just Irish immigrants. This is the sentiment behind the speech everyone is so happy about. I’m not saying this isn’t an important issue, but its certainly not the most important issue with regard to American immigration policies.

And I’m not surprised. Because even if Kenny launched into a scathing criticism of Trumps immigration policies, that’d just make him a hypocrite. Ireland has been criticised by both the ESRI - an irish group involved in social and economic research - and the UNHCR - an UN refugee group - for its poor committal to bringing in refugees (http://www.thejournal.ie/refugees-ireland-esri-report-3135442-Dec2016/). We still have direct provision camps, where asylum seekers are incarcerated while their applications go through - sometimes for years or indefinitely. Most of these are privately run institutes, and are subject to huge criticism and frequent controversy for the standard of living the keep (more on that here: http://www.nascireland.org/campaigns-for-change/direct-provision/). I’d like to wrap this up with some clips of Kenny and his government being criticised for his policies of refugees and immigration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKKDy4RfdGs (on allowing unaccompanied minors into Ireland from Calais)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJF5mw74HWs (on Calais again, but also on our history with refugees in the past - how we support US imperialism, refused Jewish immigrants during and prior to ww2)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcgvzVTGW8s (on allowing people born in Ireland citizenship).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6joo7c_KaI (on how we are complicit in the Syrian refugee crisis, trivialise and ignore it, and on the crisis in general)

[Chestaan]

So I'm sure many of you have seen Kenny's speech with Trump, which is going viral with his discussion of st. patrick being an immigrant (clip here: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/wa ... 41759.html)
What are your thoughts on this? I have a few myself:

So, Enda Kenny brought up immigration with Trump. This is great. I’m not saying this isn’t great. But fuck Enda Kenny. Why? Well let me start off with some context for the non-Irish people here.

Kenny’s going to America was already controversial. There was widespread criticism of the action. Here’s the petition (almost 40,000 signatures) which called for him to cancel the visit in protest of Trump’s policies:
https://my.uplift.ie/petitions/shamrock-not-in-my-name?source=twitter-share-email-button&time=1485675487

We’ve had plenty of anti-trump protests here, before and after the meeting:
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/hundreds-attend-protest-against-trump-at-us-embassy-1.2961579http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/irish-americans-staged-cultural-protest-against-donald-trumps-planned-visit-to-ireland-445563.html

He has been urged by forces within the Dáil to refuse to visit the States in protest of Trump’s actions:
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/enda-kenny-urged-to-boycott-st-patrick-s-day-trump-meeting-1.2938797
https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0129/848528-us-immigration-ban-ireland/

So, okay, maybe Kenny just wanted to make the point in person. Maybe he wanted to bring his critique of Trump’s policies to his face. That’d be great. After all, during the US election, Kenny called him “racist and dangerous.” Except a few days ago Kenny rescinded the comment:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlCLVbyjvt0

So if this speech was a critique of Trumps policies, it was, I think we can agree, fairly spineless. Its already clear if there was a criticism here, it was only implied - Kenny never says anything outright about trumps policies or about emigration other than Irish-American emigration. Compounded with his rescinding of his previous criticisms, its rendered pretty much meaningless. But I’d like to go even further. I would argue that, even ignoring all that, Enda Kenny’s speech wasn’t about Trump’s Muslim ban, or his policies, or anything like that. Since day one of Trump’s election, Kenny has been concerned about keeping the J1 programme (the programme allowing Irish migrants to work in the US) (http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/enda-kenny-denies-being-snubbed-by-donald-trump-766869.html). In fact, the J1 programme has always been on Kenny’s agenda (http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/kenny-says-he-is-very-concerned-about-future-of-j1-1.2382995), even his daughter went on a J1. He’s also been concerned recently with irish-emigrant voting rights - announcing a few days before Paddy’s day, for example, an upcoming referendum on allowing Irish citizens abroad to vote, and furthermore announcing that he would, when visiting Trump, press him to support illegal Irish immigrants in the US (https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0312/859078-st-patricks-day/). Not immigrants from any other country. Just Irish immigrants. This is the sentiment behind the speech everyone is so happy about. I’m not saying this isn’t an important issue, but its certainly not the most important issue with regard to American immigration policies.

And I’m not surprised. Because even if Kenny launched into a scathing criticism of Trumps immigration policies, that’d just make him a hypocrite. Ireland has been criticised by both the ESRI - an irish group involved in social and economic research - and the UNHCR - an UN refugee group - for its poor committal to bringing in refugees (http://www.thejournal.ie/refugees-ireland-esri-report-3135442-Dec2016/). We still have direct provision camps, where asylum seekers are incarcerated while their applications go through - sometimes for years or indefinitely. Most of these are privately run institutes, and are subject to huge criticism and frequent controversy for the standard of living the keep (more on that here: http://www.nascireland.org/campaigns-for-change/direct-provision/). I’d like to wrap this up with some clips of Kenny and his government being criticised for his policies of refugees and immigration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKKDy4RfdGs (on allowing unaccompanied minors into Ireland from Calais)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJF5mw74HWs (on Calais again, but also on our history with refugees in the past - how we support US imperialism, refused Jewish immigrants during and prior to ww2)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcgvzVTGW8s (on allowing people born in Ireland citizenship).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6joo7c_KaI (on how we are complicit in the Syrian refugee crisis, trivialise and ignore it, and on the crisis in general)

If Kenny had any balls he would have refused to visit Trump. Also he's presided over years of direct provision so I would question his sincerity on the issue of immigration.

[The Grene Knyght]

So I'm sure many of you have seen Kenny's speech with Trump, which is going viral with his discussion of st. patrick being an immigrant (clip here: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/wa ... 41759.html)
What are your thoughts on this? I have a few myself:

So, Enda Kenny brought up immigration with Trump. This is great. I’m not saying this isn’t great. But fuck Enda Kenny. Why? Well let me start off with some context for the non-Irish people here.

Kenny’s going to America was already controversial. There was widespread criticism of the action. Here’s the petition (almost 40,000 signatures) which called for him to cancel the visit in protest of Trump’s policies:
https://my.uplift.ie/petitions/shamrock-not-in-my-name?source=twitter-share-email-button&time=1485675487

We’ve had plenty of anti-trump protests here, before and after the meeting:
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/hundreds-attend-protest-against-trump-at-us-embassy-1.2961579http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/irish-americans-staged-cultural-protest-against-donald-trumps-planned-visit-to-ireland-445563.html

He has been urged by forces within the Dáil to refuse to visit the States in protest of Trump’s actions:
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/enda-kenny-urged-to-boycott-st-patrick-s-day-trump-meeting-1.2938797
https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0129/848528-us-immigration-ban-ireland/

So, okay, maybe Kenny just wanted to make the point in person. Maybe he wanted to bring his critique of Trump’s policies to his face. That’d be great. After all, during the US election, Kenny called him “racist and dangerous.” Except a few days ago Kenny rescinded the comment:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlCLVbyjvt0

So if this speech was a critique of Trumps policies, it was, I think we can agree, fairly spineless. Its already clear if there was a criticism here, it was only implied - Kenny never says anything outright about trumps policies or about emigration other than Irish-American emigration. Compounded with his rescinding of his previous criticisms, its rendered pretty much meaningless. But I’d like to go even further. I would argue that, even ignoring all that, Enda Kenny’s speech wasn’t about Trump’s Muslim ban, or his policies, or anything like that. Since day one of Trump’s election, Kenny has been concerned about keeping the J1 programme (the programme allowing Irish migrants to work in the US) (http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/enda-kenny-denies-being-snubbed-by-donald-trump-766869.html). In fact, the J1 programme has always been on Kenny’s agenda (http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/kenny-says-he-is-very-concerned-about-future-of-j1-1.2382995), even his daughter went on a J1. He’s also been concerned recently with irish-emigrant voting rights - announcing a few days before Paddy’s day, for example, an upcoming referendum on allowing Irish citizens abroad to vote, and furthermore announcing that he would, when visiting Trump, press him to support illegal Irish immigrants in the US (https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0312/859078-st-patricks-day/). Not immigrants from any other country. Just Irish immigrants. This is the sentiment behind the speech everyone is so happy about. I’m not saying this isn’t an important issue, but its certainly not the most important issue with regard to American immigration policies.

And I’m not surprised. Because even if Kenny launched into a scathing criticism of Trumps immigration policies, that’d just make him a hypocrite. Ireland has been criticised by both the ESRI - an irish group involved in social and economic research - and the UNHCR - an UN refugee group - for its poor committal to bringing in refugees (http://www.thejournal.ie/refugees-ireland-esri-report-3135442-Dec2016/). We still have direct provision camps, where asylum seekers are incarcerated while their applications go through - sometimes for years or indefinitely. Most of these are privately run institutes, and are subject to huge criticism and frequent controversy for the standard of living the keep (more on that here: http://www.nascireland.org/campaigns-for-change/direct-provision/). I’d like to wrap this up with some clips of Kenny and his government being criticised for his policies of refugees and immigration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKKDy4RfdGs (on allowing unaccompanied minors into Ireland from Calais)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJF5mw74HWs (on Calais again, but also on our history with refugees in the past - how we support US imperialism, refused Jewish immigrants during and prior to ww2)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcgvzVTGW8s (on allowing people born in Ireland citizenship).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6joo7c_KaI (on how we are complicit in the Syrian refugee crisis, trivialise and ignore it, and on the crisis in general)

If Kenny had any balls he would have refused to visit Trump. Also he's presided over years of direct provision so I would question his sincerity on the issue of immigration.

That was similar but far more concise than what I wrote...
Probably something I need to work on lol.

[Chestaan]

If Kenny had any balls he would have refused to visit Trump. Also he's presided over years of direct provision so I would question his sincerity on the issue of immigration.

That was similar but far more concise than what I wrote...
Probably something I need to work on lol.

Haha tbh I preferred your in depth analysis I'm just lazier and wanted to indicate my agreement with you and my opposition to Kenny. It really annoyed me yesterday seeing so many of my facebook friends sharing the video as if he was some sort of hero to immigrants.

[The Grene Knyght]

That was similar but far more concise than what I wrote...
Probably something I need to work on lol.

Haha tbh I preferred your in depth analysis I'm just lazier and wanted to indicate my agreement with you and my opposition to Kenny. It really annoyed me yesterday seeing so many of my facebook friends sharing the video as if he was some sort of hero to immigrants.

Thats what sparked me into writing it. I think people just want to see Ireland represented well abroad, and so are not willing to examine what he's actually saying and what he has been doing as thoroughly as they ought to.

[Alvalero]

Don't care if Kenny visited Trump or not. Far more immediate and concerning matters that need resolving rather than the bitching and moaning about state visits because he has different policies to you. It is well known Kenny is a hypocritical moron that does these things for show and not substance. He spoke of the important matters between Ireland and the US which were inspiring to some and hollow to others. It's a matter I don't care much about.

As for a united Ireland at last, if it were to go along the lines of what FF's white paper proposed which was for Stormont to continue having its own assembly(I think that is part of the plan if I remember reading it correctly) then its a hollow unification which should not happen. A united Ireland should have a single legislative body and a single executive. We are not annexing a completely new territory, we are reuniting the island. As a nationalist it pains me to say it, either unification is done properly or not at all.

[Ostroeuropa]

If northern irelands elected representatives want a referendum, they should get one. I am opposed to secession, i'd sooner support Irish re-unification with the UK, but i'll admit I find it harder to care than I did about Scotland. (If Ireland were united and British, and North Scotland was the Republic of Orkney and Strathclyde, I wager i'd conversely care less about south scottish independence.) Ultimately, along with the other anglo/celtic nations, it does not matter much if we share a government together. There's too much shared culture, history, language, and other institutions, mindsets, and traditions, for mere government to be the tie that binds. We're the same tribe, just a little scattered.

If the Irish want unity with the south I can see the merits.