Infantry Discussion Thread 10: Shovel Edition [NO FWORDS]

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

Just 5mmm.... You do realize that when it comes to precision engineering relating to stuff like modern firearms sub 1/10 parts of a mm are considered a lot.

Yes.. But still..

OK. Since you're the one who gave me the idea of spitzer Tokarevs, how do you use yours and in what weapons? Handguns y/n? And how do they relate to regular 7.62x25mm guns (if you use that at all) ?

[Crookfur]

It's random question time.

Assume that the weapon is a modern(ish) full auto capable, select fire conventional layout assault rifle. What would be the pros and cons of having a large external hammer that would function as a single-double action thing. So you have to cock it manually after loading a magazine, but after that it self cocks on full auto and on semi you have the option of either-or.

No benefits what so ever as you would already be cocking it by cycling the action to load a round in from a fresh mag or it would already be cooked if you reloaded with a round in the chamber.

As to cons well you have had to make more holes in the gun, added some extra parts and further complicated the manual of arms.

Decoders and SA/DA actions make more sense on a pistol because of the way they are carried and drawn.

[Kazarogkai]

Just a question for you guys:

Can you fire a rifle grenade from a shotgun with a cup type launcher?

I was just wondering because of the fact that within my 1940s Rifle Section I had planned that one of the NCOs within it would carry a shotgun as their primary weapon for assault purposes and was wondering if it would be possible to also give said NCO a cup type launcher for said weapon. the primary purpose behind this would be for throwing smoke but he could also if he wants use it for basic fire support since I plan on him doubling as the grenadier within the Section. So thoughts?

[Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502]

What was bayonet training like for soldiers in the Napoleonic era? Was it mostly 'stick them with the pointy end and listen to your officers' or did they get more significant training?

Pretty much just stabstabstabstab

It wasn't in depth at all until quite a bit after the Napoleonic period. But from after then until partway through WWI fencing with your enemy was what was expected would happen (even after repeating rifles were standard), and after the initial charge, I have no doubt that that would be the case once the two opposing bodies loosened up during the melee. So dey got dem bay'net techniques in.

What about earlier, like during the Seven Years' War and American Revolution? Supposedly Frederick the Great was a big believer in closing to bayonet range as quickly as possible after firing a volley, but I may be mistaken.

[Spreewerke]

Just a question for you guys:

Can you fire a rifle grenade from a shotgun with a cup type launcher?

I was just wondering because of the fact that within my 1940s Rifle Section I had planned that one of the NCOs within it would carry a shotgun as their primary weapon for assault purposes and was wondering if it would be possible to also give said NCO a cup type launcher for said weapon. the primary purpose behind this would be for throwing smoke but he could also if he wants use it for basic fire support since I plan on him doubling as the grenadier within the Section. So thoughts?

[Crookfur]

Pretty much just stabstabstabstab

It wasn't in depth at all until quite a bit after the Napoleonic period. But from after then until partway through WWI fencing with your enemy was what was expected would happen (even after repeating rifles were standard), and after the initial charge, I have no doubt that that would be the case once the two opposing bodies loosened up during the melee. So dey got dem bay'net techniques in.

What about earlier, like during the Seven Years' War and American Revolution? Supposedly Frederick the Great was a big believer in closing to bayonet range as quickly as possible after firing a volley, but I may be mistaken.

Bayonet drill was part of the manual of arms for infantry so it was taught and regularly practised. It was of course rather mechanical and formalised as was required for a large body of men to work together in close order.

The bayonet was considered very important and was much cheaper and easier to drill with than actual shooting. It helped that pretty much all battles were won at bayonet point and some forces (like the British in the American war of independence) won several battles without firing a shot.

Actual bayonet dueling and more refined techniques only really became a big thing in the late 19th century as infantry formations opened up as a result of the increased firepower coming online.

[Aethal]

Semi-jacketed Wadcutters are intended for pistols, so it doesnt matter. Theyre intended to engage sub-50m.

The advantage is rapid expansion. The issue is lack of penetration; depending on the round. .38 special might not reach the FBI standard of 12" Bare-10 percent ballistics gelatin penetration, but things like .357 Magnum certainly will.

Well, it's a .474 cal projectile with a softpoint. Chunky salsa amirite?

[Puzikas]

That's my stripper name actually.

Velocity and sectional density has more to do with it than pure caliber. Sectional density is the bullets ability to overcome resistance, and velocity is the bullets ability to not slow to a stop.


If your bullet is .474, but weighs 190gr, for example, it has a shitty SD, but it might be going 1800ft/s
Which I would expect to fragment actually?

If it weighs 470gr and moves at like 700ft/s then it would reach that minimum, but knowing you I fully expect like 910-1100ft/s with something like 350-400gr.

[Aethal]

I went full bugfuck with this one, "12.05x38". and yes, I am taking the piss out of those 7.62x39mm "pistols" people keep making.

[Purpelia]

Just 5mmm.... You do realize that when it comes to precision engineering relating to stuff like modern firearms sub 1/10 parts of a mm are considered a lot.

Yes.. But still..

OK. Since you're the one who gave me the idea of spitzer Tokarevs, how do you use yours and in what weapons? Handguns y/n? And how do they relate to regular 7.62x25mm guns (if you use that at all) ?

My round is called the 7.5 Felix MSP. The MSP stands for Machine Assault (Sturm) Pistol, AKA submachine gun. That should really tell you all you need to know.

Basically the thing is not just a pointy 7.62TT. It's a pointy 7.62 TT P++²³. So it falls into a category of pistol rounds similar to say .357 SIG. And it really is best suited to being fired from something that can make use of that superior powder load like a submachinegun/PDW. Which is what it was designed for to begin with. Yes, you can use it in a handgun (and I do). It's not going to take your arm off. But it's definitively not something I would issue to say a regular police officer who has to concern him self with things such as over penetration.

So how do I employ it? It's used primarily from a bullpup PDW by my SWAT/Counter Terror units, my special forces, the personal security of my dukes and in other similar roles. In my military the same PDW sees a limited use for helicopter pilots primarily. And you will see it some times employed in SIG P226 sized handguns from time to time with people like aircraft pilots who who can't well fit a PDW in the cockpit but don't really care about concealing their handgun either.

[Prosorusiya]

Thoughts on issuing my men with 50mm mortars at the squad level? I was thinking of employing the trusty old 50-RM-41 in this role... the ORBATS I've been following actually recommend some obscure 60mm Chinese thing but personally I think the simpler RM-41 will serve the role better. But then I've heard some say that a mortar is unesscary/inefficient nowadays at the squad level given the advent of underbarrel grenade launchers.

On a different note, I am looking into issuing my troops with camp smoks to go over their Afghankas, I reason it's cheaper to just uniform my troops in a solid color and the issue smoks whenever more complex/mission specific came is needed. Any recommendations for smoks with mountain/desert camo?

[Allanea]

Thoughts on issuing my men with 50mm mortars at the squad level? I was thinking of employing the trusty old 50-RM-41 in this role... the ORBATS I've been following actually recommend some obscure 60mm Chinese thing but personally I think the simpler RM-41 will serve the role better. But then I've heard some say that a mortar is unesscary/inefficient nowadays at the squad level given the advent of underbarrel grenade launchers.

It depends. 50mm mortars don't really provide a firepower edge over underbarrel GLs. Even in their heyday they were primarily smoke charge/signal munition dispensers. 60mm mortars are a different matter and are now making a sort of comeback.

[Fordorsia]

Pretty much just stabstabstabstab

It wasn't in depth at all until quite a bit after the Napoleonic period. But from after then until partway through WWI fencing with your enemy was what was expected would happen (even after repeating rifles were standard), and after the initial charge, I have no doubt that that would be the case once the two opposing bodies loosened up during the melee. So dey got dem bay'net techniques in.

What about earlier, like during the Seven Years' War and American Revolution? Supposedly Frederick the Great was a big believer in closing to bayonet range as quickly as possible after firing a volley, but I may be mistaken.

If he was all about the bayonet, that's not really representative of how they were trained. Closing into melee as fast as possible after a couple volleys has its advantages, but in that situation your aim is to drive the enemy off, preferably before you even get into melee, so the need for the soldier do be well trained with the bayonet isn't needed even for that.

[Puzikas]

Thoughts on issuing my men with 50mm mortars at the squad level? I was thinking of employing the trusty old 50-RM-41 in this role... the ORBATS I've been following actually recommend some obscure 60mm Chinese thing but personally I think the simpler RM-41 will serve the role better. But then I've heard some say that a mortar is unesscary/inefficient nowadays at the squad level given the advent of underbarrel grenade launchers.

On a different note, I am looking into issuing my troops with camp smoks to go over their Afghankas, I reason it's cheaper to just uniform my troops in a solid color and the issue smoks whenever more complex/mission specific came is needed. Any recommendations for smoks with mountain/desert camo?

The shell for the 50mm RM mortars has a explosive filler of 98g TNT, which is 22% more than the GP-25s VOG-25 (in TNT equivalent) FRAG shell, which weighs 340% less than one shell.

To deliver 1 kilo equivalent of TNT, you would need:
· 1 launch unit, RM-50-41, for 12.1 kilos
· 10 0-822A mortars and case, for 22.5 kilo (boxs of 6x2 for mortars)
·3 men
And could deliver 1 kilo at a rate of 1 round/2.5 seconds, but only effectively to distances of 100-300m and 700-800m.

Compatibly, a GP-25, to deliver 1 kilo of TNT equivalent:
·1 GP-25, 1.5 kilo (or 4.8 kilo if mounted to rifle)
· 13 VOG-25 grenades, for 3.8 kilos plus 2 kilos to cary them (vest and case)
And can deliver, effectively, 8 aimed shots/minute or 15 saturation.
For the 44.6 kilos and three men you add to the squad to cary the mortar, you can arm three men with GP-25s and dozens of rounds of ammunition, and achieve about the same thing

The 50-RM-41 was actually really kinda crap too.

[Fordorsia]

papa puz how would people in the good old days treat a dude who had his face smashed in?

[Purpelia]

What if I combine it with something the troops have to carry anyway like say a shovel? That way everyone can have a mortar!

[Puzikas]

papa puz how would people in the good old days treat a dude who had his face smashed in?

Wash the wound, wrap the face.
Or let him die.
You need to be more specific with your medical questions.

[Husseinarti]

What if I combine it with something the troops have to carry anyway like say a shovel? That way everyone can have a mortar!

soviets did it

[Fordorsia]

papa puz how would people in the good old days treat a dude who had his face smashed in?

Wash the wound, wrap the face.
Or let him die.
You need to be more specific with your medical questions.

Mace uppercut to the chin what happen

[Western Pacific Territories]

@Puz to follow up unoriginally, what would you and your other doctor mates have done if a soldier came in with a gunshot wound in the left hip from a Dragunov 7.62x54mm round?

[Fordorsia]

@Puz to follow up unoriginally, what would you and your other doctor mates have done if a soldier came in with a gunshot wound in the left hip from a Dragunov 7.62x54mm round?

Entire waist is amputated no more benis

[Purpelia]

Is it true that during WW2 soldiers could get cleft in twain at the waist by a stream of MG or SMG fire?

[Fordorsia]

Yes I saw it happen with my own two eyeballs

[Western Pacific Territories]

@Puz to follow up unoriginally, what would you and your other doctor mates have done if a soldier came in with a gunshot wound in the left hip from a Dragunov 7.62x54mm round?

Entire waist is amputated no more benis

let's assume then that the soldier is looking north when he gets shot and the bullet comes from the northwest, entering his hip but not requiring the amputation of his benis

[Puzikas]

@Puz to follow up unoriginally, what would you and your other doctor mates have done if a soldier came in with a gunshot wound in the left hip from a Dragunov 7.62x54mm round?

This i can actually answer.

Firstly I was never a Battlefeild surgon, I'm currently a trauma surgeon at a medical center in a reletivly crap city on the Eastern Seaboard of the US, so I wouldn't expect to see someone come in with a shot from an SVD. But ignoring that, we have steps.

1. Patient assessment. GSWs are always pushed to the top of my list. The assessment is carried out by the Paramedics on sight, fed to me via them, and continued assessment is preformed on delivery. Depending on the seriousness of this patient (Glasgow, vitals), surgery might not be necessary, or even an option. I'll assume they need it.
2. Yell at a bunch of people while I scrub up. The patient is put to critical care teams, who begin giving them necessary fluids and make the sleepy time happen.
2.5. imaging is always important but not always possible. I hate going into surgery's blind, but sometimes it may be a necessity depending on the patients needs. In this stage, X-Rays and other imaging and diagnostic tools are used. We use these to plan out routes, know what we need to do on the inside.
3. Surgery time. Typical complications include necessitating the closure of large tissue wounds, the resetting of bone, extraction of bone fragments (since it's near a joint), closure of major blood vessels, and closure of the wound. Extraction of bullet is not always necessary.
4. Post surgery imaging, planning, and consultation.

That's the super simple crash overview. I couldn't even sit here for four hours and type out everything that's necessary, it takes teams of people hours to do things properly and administratively, and the surgery itself can take hours. My longest surgery took 21.5 hours. A typical one for me is 3-5.