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Official Embassy of The South Pacific

Talk about regional management and politics, raider/defender gameplay, and other game-related matters.
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Unibot III
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Posts: 7113
Founded: Mar 11, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Unibot III » Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:31 am

Syberis wrote:Makes you wonder how much of Glen's rhetoric is his own.


Don't you worry, I don't compare notes. Glen has always spoken his own words, often to the detriment of his opposition. Anyone who knew him would know he's no one's puppet.

Evil Wolf wrote:The logic of the argument being employed has devolved into Hallmark card themed babble speak.


It's a Canadianism. "A right is a right is a right," Clifford Jones. "A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof, and when you have a good proof, it's proven," Jean Chretien. "A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian," Justin Trudeau. etc. etc. etc. We do it a lot. >_>
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
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TSP Foreign Office
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Founded: Jul 18, 2016
New York Times Democracy

Postby TSP Foreign Office » Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:53 am

Prime Minister's Regional Address


Hello all, and welcome to my first ever Regional Address as Prime Minister of The South Pacific!

This address is intended to give everyone a view inside the workings of the Executive Branch since the start of the term.

We have been in office now for a little over a month, and as I’m sure you are all aware, a lot has happened since we took office.


Regional Affairs


The Ministry of Regional Affairs has been very busy behind the scenes, preparing many things to both improve current systems within the ministry and create new programs for the future. Minister Roavin has prepared this brief in regards to what the Ministry has been up to:

“The MoRA's public output in its first month was not impressive, as was brilliantly satirized by AnOnion. Fortunately, the region has been pumped up beautifully by the election commissioners for the Local Council and Delegate debates in that time, giving us in the Ministry some transition time from the yawning emptiness that preceeded the current term.

What AnOnion got wrong, however, was that internally, things have been quite active. The Ministry has been building a community - the people involved are getting to know each other and, more importantly, we are seeing where individual strengths lie within each contributor to be able to effectively come together for the kind output that the region expects from the Ministry. Furthermore, we've been investing heavily in building an infrastructure for better journalism as well. One of those components is launching the Journalism Support Services, serving to improve the quality of all journalism in the region no matter if private or Ministry-owned, and has already been used by SPN, the Southern Onion, and the Southern Journal.

All this invisible work is starting to become visible now. A new Southern Journal issue has been published, and we're already working on a very big scoop to be published in a future issue. We've announced the Spirited Southern Rejects festival with our good allies from Spiritus and the Rejected Realms to begin on August 1. Much work has also gone into what we call "Fellowship Programme 2.0", completely revamping the way newcomers and oldtimers alike can get involved in the region, both simplifying it for those interested and unifying the involvement opportunities across our region into a single place. Finally, we have written a special software tool, which helps recruiters find nations in our region to contact with personalized telegrams (which are always more effective than impersonal "spam"-TGs), and we plan to begin recruiting for MoRA Fellowship, SPN Editors, SPSF Soldiers, our regional Roleplay, and more using that tool in conjunction with the release of the first version of FP2.0.”

Speaking from personal experience so far this term, I have nothing but good things to say about the Ministry of Regional Affairs and its Minister. I hope you all share in my excitement for all the new things that are coming from the Ministry.

Foreign Affairs


Much like the Ministry of Regional Affairs, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs has been working on cleaning up the inner workings of the Ministry. A few new additions have already been released, and Minister Sandaogou has prepared the following statement to address them:

“The Ministry of Foreign Affairs has been settling into its new offices, quite literally: we have a brand new embassy in Gameplay, newly remodeled and redecorated. It's already seen lots of foot traffic, so stop by for a visit! This embassy is where we let the rest of the game know what's going on in TSP, from Cabinet statements to military mission reports. If you have something you'd like to see advertised in our embassy, contact the Ministry!

In the coming week, we'll be unveiling the World Assembly program. Keep a look out for invitations to our first World Assembly summit! We're hoping to gather new and experienced players together on our forums to write resolutions together. This is an opportunity to put TSP's name in the permanent halls of the World Assembly, so we need everybody's help.”

The Ministry of Foreign Affairs has been in dire need of some renovation for some time now, with old alliances that are no longer relevant, and new relationships that are in need of growth. I suspect by the end of the term that we will have a whole new, positive view of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

Military Affairs


The Ministry of Military Affairs has been quite active since the start of term, a welcome change to military gameplay in The South Pacific. Minister Imkihca has embarked on several joint operations in order to obtain a better understanding for military gameplay around NationStates, and this has undoubtedly had a huge impact on the level of activity within the Ministry. Minster Imkihca has provided the following in-depth overview of the current term:

Statement on Field Activity
“While it may not appear like our Special Forces have been making huge waves we have definitely been getting quite a few mentions in Gameplay thanks to innumerable defence runs by our very own Officer Roavin with The Grey Wardens and other friends, so many infact that he has already been promoted twice in the short time he has been a member of our mighty military and I could not write a review of my time as Minister so far without giving thanks to him for his initiative and keenness which has not only improved our presence in the wider community but also strengthened our relationship with TGW and helped build more friends for our wonderful military!”

Statement on Recruitment
“The SPSF are focused on rebuilding our dwindled numbers with a friendly and welcoming personal campaign aimed at enticing both new and old members of the South Pacific alike into the military side of NationStates and I am pleased to say we have had five new recruits since June!"

Statement on Modernising
"This has also involved a lot of work behind the scenes as I have streamlined and organised us from the inside, doing things like making records of what times people are available, what kind of missions are appealing, if they have connections to other militaries, etc. This small but significant improvement in recording our recruits has made it much easier to organise missions and know who to contact at certain times or for certain operations.
It is not only behind the scenes that I have been cleaning up, I have personally spruced up our graphics and encouraged their use as much as possible, I feel they give us a much more professional (and kick ass!) look which will hopefully make people not only want to join but remember the name South Pacific Special Forces!"

I am extremely proud of the progress made by Imkihca and the SPSF. From day one of this term they have hit the ground running, with activity at a level we have not seen in some time, and more missions being carried out every week. I encourage anyone interested in Military Gameplay to contact the SPSF and join up!

Conclusion


Since this is the first time in a long time that The South Pacific has had a Prime Minister, I would like to say that so far things are going better than I could have ever imagined. As a region, we came out of the Great Council with a lot of uncertainties in front of us, but we have not let them stand in our way of progress. Even with a great deal of work still needing to be completed, we are well on our way to forging a new future for this great region.

I truly believe the voice of every citizen is vital to the continued growth of the region, and that the more we work together, the better of The South Pacific will be. Whether it is working in one of the Executive branches, providing input in an Assembly debate, or just casual conversation on the RMB, everyone has the ability to impact this new era of The South Pacific.

Thank you for your attention today. If you ever have any questions, or would just like a friendly chat, please feel free to contact me via Discord, Telegram, or Private Message on the forum.

Best Regards,

Drugged Monkeys
Prime Minister

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RiderSyl
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Founded: Jan 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby RiderSyl » Mon Aug 01, 2016 3:04 pm

Glen-Rhodes wrote:
Ridersyl wrote:
Exactly. What's next? "The more threatening they are, the more threatening they fall?" :blink:


That's actually a good one. I'm gonna bookmark this.


Heh. I literally just replaced the core of the usual saying with 'more threatening'. :p

TSP Foreign Office wrote:<snip>


Yo, Prime Minister, nice address! Full of pride, and void of malice. :clap:
R.I.P. Dyakovo
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Drugged Monkeys
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Founded: Mar 09, 2008
Democratic Socialists

Postby Drugged Monkeys » Tue Aug 02, 2016 5:43 am

Yo, Prime Minister, nice address! Full of pride, and void of malice. :clap:


Thanks
Delegate Elect of The South Pacific

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Tim-Opolis
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Founded: Feb 17, 2010
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Tim-Opolis » Tue Aug 02, 2016 10:09 am

#MakeDMmobileagain

Good speech though, congrats to The South Pacific on all the progress :)
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Zadiner
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Ex-Nation

Postby Zadiner » Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:51 am

Progress? What progress?
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Lord Ravenclaw
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Founded: Dec 31, 2012
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Lord Ravenclaw » Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:53 am

Zadiner wrote:Progress? What progress?


Your salt is showing.
Lord Ravenclaw
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Zadiner
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Founded: Feb 24, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Zadiner » Mon Aug 15, 2016 5:03 am

Lord Ravenclaw wrote:
Zadiner wrote:Progress? What progress?


Your salt is showing.

?
Economic Left/Right: -2.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.46

IATA Member
Member of The Galactic Economic and Security Organisation
Proud South Pacifican
Zadiner/Zak for TSP Delegate!

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RiderSyl
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Founded: Jan 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby RiderSyl » Mon Aug 15, 2016 8:39 am

Zadiner wrote:
Lord Ravenclaw wrote:
Your salt is showing.

?

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R.I.P. Dyakovo
Sylvia Montresor

Ashmoria
Karpathos
~ You may think I’m small, but I have a universe inside my mind. ~

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Drugged Monkeys
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Founded: Mar 09, 2008
Democratic Socialists

Postby Drugged Monkeys » Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:14 am

Image
The Cabinet of the South Pacific
Statement on Lazarus


In the early morning hours of February 16th, 15 unknown nations moved to Lazarus and, just before the update of the region began, endorsed Guardian Loftegen to ensure that Loftegen would replace the rightfully elected World Assembly Delegate Kowassati. The South Pacific Special Forces immediately notified the Cabinet of the South Pacific. The General Corps of the South Pacific Special Forces, in light of the unclear situation and in accordance with Article IV Section 3 of the Treaty of Friendship and Cooperation between The South Pacific and Lazarus, preemptively deployed troops to endorse the legitimate Delegate of our valued treaty ally. At the next region update, nearly 12 hours later, the nation Kowassati was restored to the World Assembly Delegate seat in Lazarus. South Pacifican forces have since been ordered to withdraw again.

In the aftermath, it has been reported that the aforementioned 15 nations are troops from the invader organization The Black Hawks, acting with as yet unclear motivations; Delegate Kowassati and Guardian Loftegen neither consented to this nor were they informed beforehand. In light of Loftegen's tenure and trusted position as Guardian, no harm was done to Lazarus; nonetheless, the South Pacific considers this invasion a malicious infringement on the sovereignty of a treaty ally. The Cabinet of the South Pacific condemns the reckless action of The Black Hawks, and reaffirms the commitment of the South Pacific to our friends in Lazarus.
Delegate Elect of The South Pacific

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The Pope Is Catholic
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Founded: Feb 18, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby The Pope Is Catholic » Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:12 am

Raiders seed chaos, disrupt order, and don't particularly care about being condemned by fancy statements from TSP. More news at 11.

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Roavin
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Founded: Apr 07, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Roavin » Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:05 am

The Pope Is Catholic wrote:Raiders seed chaos, disrupt order, and don't particularly care about being condemned by fancy statements from TSP. More news at 11.


Well duh. The point is less "omg evil raiderz" and more "hey Laz, we got ur back, fam"
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Unibot III
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Founded: Mar 11, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Unibot III » Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:12 am

Plus TBH also supported the PRSP coup in TSP, so there's a single degree of separation here. TSP and Lazarus are allies and have both been taunted by TBH in the past.

Nice statement.
Last edited by Unibot III on Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
Org. Join Date: 25-05-2008 | Former Delegate of TRR

Factbook // Collected works // Gameplay Alignment Test //
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✯ Duty is Eternal, Justice is Imminent: UDL

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Mallorea and Riva
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Founded: Sep 29, 2010
Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Mallorea and Riva » Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:14 am

Unibot III wrote:Plus TBH also supported the PRSP coup in TSP, so there's a single degree of separation here. TSP and Lazarus are allies and have both been taunted by TBH in the past.

Nice statement.

To be fair TBH supported and I (as a Field Marshal at the time I believe) was instrumental in punching updating liberation forces in the face for the 10 days it lasted. Good times! TSP has been boring since.
Ideological Bulwark #253
Retired Major of The Black Hawks
Retired Charter Nation: Political Affairs in Antarctic Oasis
Retired Colonel of DEN Central Command, now defunct
Former Delegate of The South Pacific, winner of TSP's "Best Dali" Award
Retired Secretary of Defense of Stargate
Terror of The Joint Systems Alliance
Mall Isaraider, son of Tram and Spartz, Brother of Tal and apparently Sev the treacherous bastard.
Frattastan quote of the month: Mall is following those weird beef-only diets now.

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Unibot III
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Founded: Mar 11, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Unibot III » Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:22 am

Mallorea and Riva wrote:I (as a Field Marshal at the time I believe) was instrumental in punching updating liberation forces in the face for the 10 days it lasted. Good times! TSP has been boring since.


Yes, I remember.

It's a shame I was retired then (by like a week.) I would have enjoyed beating Jakker and you, but suffice to say, I wasn't allowed to play. :P
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
Org. Join Date: 25-05-2008 | Former Delegate of TRR

Factbook // Collected works // Gameplay Alignment Test //
9 GA Res., 14 SC Res. // Headlines from Unibot // WASC HQ: A Guide

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✯ Duty is Eternal, Justice is Imminent: UDL

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Mallorea and Riva
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Founded: Sep 29, 2010
Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Mallorea and Riva » Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:30 am

Unibot III wrote:
Mallorea and Riva wrote:I (as a Field Marshal at the time I believe) was instrumental in punching updating liberation forces in the face for the 10 days it lasted. Good times! TSP has been boring since.


Yes, I remember.

It's a shame I was retired then (by like a week.) I would have enjoyed beating Jakker and you, but suffice to say, I wasn't allowed to play. :P

No doubt if you had been on the side of the liberators I'd still be in the Delegate's seat :p Jakker really only ordered TBH to move in, he wasn't behind the scenes like a few others.
Ideological Bulwark #253
Retired Major of The Black Hawks
Retired Charter Nation: Political Affairs in Antarctic Oasis
Retired Colonel of DEN Central Command, now defunct
Former Delegate of The South Pacific, winner of TSP's "Best Dali" Award
Retired Secretary of Defense of Stargate
Terror of The Joint Systems Alliance
Mall Isaraider, son of Tram and Spartz, Brother of Tal and apparently Sev the treacherous bastard.
Frattastan quote of the month: Mall is following those weird beef-only diets now.

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Escade
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Founded: Apr 11, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Escade » Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:39 am

Thanks for the update, DM :)

Any foreign interference in the sovereignty of a region is detrimental to the building of community. Why bother to build a community if it can be destroyed or set on fire by random trolls?

Also, I recently joined the Lazarus forums and they have pretty forum themes!

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Cormactopia Prime
Minister
 
Posts: 2764
Founded: Sep 21, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Cormactopia Prime » Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:36 pm

It's unfortunate to see The Black Hawks reverting to malicious actions against the Feeders and Sinkers, after a years long policy of refusing to get involved in Feeder and Sinker affairs, presumably resulting from their failures to overthrow the legitimate governments of the South Pacific and Osiris in 2013. They wouldn't, for example, offer any support to raider allies in Osiris in April 2016, on the grounds that they didn't get involved in Feeder and Sinker drama. But apparently they are once again fine with causing it.

This should lead to all Feeders and Sinkers, and their allies, rethinking any extant military relations with The Black Hawks.

Congratulations to the Cabinet of the South Pacific for being on top of this and issuing a strong but concise statement.
Last edited by Cormactopia Prime on Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Mallorea and Riva
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Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Mallorea and Riva » Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:38 pm

Cormactopia Prime wrote:It's unfortunate to see The Black Hawks reverting to malicious actions against the Feeders and Sinkers, after a years long policy of refusing to get involved in Feeder and Sinker affairs, presumably resulting from their failures to overthrow the legitimate governments of the South Pacific and Osiris. They wouldn't, for example, offer any support to raider allies in Osiris in April 2016, on the grounds that they didn't get involved in Feeder and Sinker drama. But apparently they are once again fine with causing it.

This should lead to all Feeders and Sinkers, and their allies, rethinking any extant military relations with The Black Hawks.

Congratulations to the Cabinet of the South Pacific for being on top of this and issuing a strong but concise statement.

I, for one, hope that TBH starts a campaign of malice towards the Feeders and Sinkers. Unfortunately, in this one case at least, it doesn't look like they have. Looks to have been a totally harmless prank. Really not worth getting upset about.
Ideological Bulwark #253
Retired Major of The Black Hawks
Retired Charter Nation: Political Affairs in Antarctic Oasis
Retired Colonel of DEN Central Command, now defunct
Former Delegate of The South Pacific, winner of TSP's "Best Dali" Award
Retired Secretary of Defense of Stargate
Terror of The Joint Systems Alliance
Mall Isaraider, son of Tram and Spartz, Brother of Tal and apparently Sev the treacherous bastard.
Frattastan quote of the month: Mall is following those weird beef-only diets now.

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Cormactopia Prime
Minister
 
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Founded: Sep 21, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Cormactopia Prime » Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:46 pm

Mallorea and Riva wrote:I, for one, hope that TBH starts a campaign of malice towards the Feeders and Sinkers. Unfortunately, in this one case at least, it doesn't look like they have. Looks to have been a totally harmless prank. Really not worth getting upset about.

It wouldn't have been a harmless prank if your goading of Loftegen to actually overthrow the Lazarene government on Lazarus' RMB had been successful, would it? It's a harmless prank because Loftegen is an honorable, loyal Lazarene, but let's not pretend you weren't all hoping for something more than harmless prank.

This is not even to mention that your misrepresentations of Loftegen's involvement in your harmless prank, during an election in which he is running for Vice Delegate of Lazarus, may well have planted a seed in the minds of voters that Loftegen cannot be trusted. A convenient help to Loftegen's primary political enemies, who just happen to now be raiders.

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Mallorea and Riva
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Founded: Sep 29, 2010
Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Mallorea and Riva » Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:49 pm

Cormactopia Prime wrote:
Mallorea and Riva wrote:I, for one, hope that TBH starts a campaign of malice towards the Feeders and Sinkers. Unfortunately, in this one case at least, it doesn't look like they have. Looks to have been a totally harmless prank. Really not worth getting upset about.

It wouldn't have been a harmless prank if your goading of Loftegen to actually overthrow the Lazarene government on Lazarus' RMB had been successful, would it? It's a harmless prank because Loftegen is an honorable, loyal Lazarene, but let's not pretend you weren't all hoping for something more than harmless prank.

This is not even to mention that your misrepresentations of Loftegen's involvement in your harmless prank, during an election in which he is running for Vice Delegate of Lazarus, may well have planted a seed in the minds of voters that Loftegen cannot be trusted. A convenient help to Loftegen's primary political enemies, who just happen to now be raiders.

In all fairness I'm not in TBH, I retired awhile ago. Yeah, it's a shame Loft didn't coup, would have been good stuff. His political enemies are raiders? I actually didn't know that, but hopefully they'll run with what I said on the RMB and get some mileage out of it.
Ideological Bulwark #253
Retired Major of The Black Hawks
Retired Charter Nation: Political Affairs in Antarctic Oasis
Retired Colonel of DEN Central Command, now defunct
Former Delegate of The South Pacific, winner of TSP's "Best Dali" Award
Retired Secretary of Defense of Stargate
Terror of The Joint Systems Alliance
Mall Isaraider, son of Tram and Spartz, Brother of Tal and apparently Sev the treacherous bastard.
Frattastan quote of the month: Mall is following those weird beef-only diets now.

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Drop Your Pants
Senator
 
Posts: 3860
Founded: Apr 17, 2005
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Drop Your Pants » Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:11 pm

Mallorea and Riva wrote:In all fairness I'm not in TBH, I retired awhile ago. Yeah, it's a shame Loft didn't coup, would have been good stuff. His political enemies are raiders? I actually didn't know that, but hopefully they'll run with what I said on the RMB and get some mileage out of it.

On a sinker RMB where the most common posts are "Hi" and "Why am I here?" ? We'll have your comments drowned in spam in a few days.
Happily oblivious to NS Drama and I rarely pay attention beyond 5 minutes

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Mallorea and Riva
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Founded: Sep 29, 2010
Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Mallorea and Riva » Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:14 pm

Drop Your Pants wrote:
Mallorea and Riva wrote:In all fairness I'm not in TBH, I retired awhile ago. Yeah, it's a shame Loft didn't coup, would have been good stuff. His political enemies are raiders? I actually didn't know that, but hopefully they'll run with what I said on the RMB and get some mileage out of it.

On a sinker RMB where the most common posts are "Hi" and "Why am I here?" ? We'll have your comments drowned in spam in a few days.

Nonsense, as long as there is an embassy between Laz and TNP I can keep going.

TSP: I'm unclear on this, did you have updaters involved in this defense or no?
Ideological Bulwark #253
Retired Major of The Black Hawks
Retired Charter Nation: Political Affairs in Antarctic Oasis
Retired Colonel of DEN Central Command, now defunct
Former Delegate of The South Pacific, winner of TSP's "Best Dali" Award
Retired Secretary of Defense of Stargate
Terror of The Joint Systems Alliance
Mall Isaraider, son of Tram and Spartz, Brother of Tal and apparently Sev the treacherous bastard.
Frattastan quote of the month: Mall is following those weird beef-only diets now.

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Jakker
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 2934
Founded: May 17, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Jakker » Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:23 pm

Cormactopia Prime wrote:They wouldn't, for example, offer any support to raider allies in Osiris in April 2016, on the grounds that they didn't get involved in Feeder and Sinker drama.


Now now, Cormac. You are talking about when you and Tim went against the demographically elected pharaoh to coup the region, right? If anything TBH did not go against Osiris, you did.

As for TSP's note, it is good to see that you all are supporting Lazarus. With their barren activity these days, they need all the help they can get.
Last edited by Jakker on Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Bruce wrote:Mostly I feel sorry for [raiders], because they put in all this effort and at the end of the day have nothing to show for it and have created nothing.

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Cormactopia Prime
Minister
 
Posts: 2764
Founded: Sep 21, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Cormactopia Prime » Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:32 pm

Jakker wrote:Now now, Cormac. You are talking about when you and Tim went against the demographically elected pharaoh to coup the region, right? If anything TBH did not go against Osiris, you did.

This isn't about The Black Hawks not helping our side, specifically. You didn't help raider allies on either side, on the grounds that The Black Hawks don't involve themselves in Feeder and Sinker drama. The Black Hawks wouldn't even support a Delegate transition in Osiris after the resistance had collapsed and the conflict was clearly over, on the same grounds. It's unfortunate to see that you won't help your fellow raiders during a conflict, because Feeder and Sinker drama is bad, but you're fine with infringing on the sovereignty of a Sinker when its suits you.

Of course that was probably all just an excuse to sit on the fence and see which side won anyway. It's been clear since 2013 that The Black Hawks have no qualms about messing around in the Feeders and Sinkers, as you supported a coup d'etat against the South Pacific, attempted one in Osiris which I sniffed out at the last minute, and had sleepers in other Feeders and Sinkers -- including Balder, of all places -- for the same purpose.

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