Coalition Against the Ideology of Nazism

[Drasnia]

So all those threads in the security council don't exist then?

They all exist, but I haven't shown or implied being a know-it-all; I simply had to prove that I can trigger and know enough R/D to liberate and refound TBL.

Sounds like acting like a know-it-all to me.

[Drop Your Pants]

My word, is that the original topic I see all the way over there? Lets all go take a look before a mod comes past.

[LollerLand]

Do you disagree with it?

Do you believe fighting symbols will make a difference in the grand scheme of things? Do you believe sending threatening telegrams to nations over an embassy will make the game a better place?

CAIN is not just fighting symbols. The current list of Nazi regions is not final, more regions will be added in the future as we receive convincing evidences against them. Having relations with Nazis will create a welcoming environment for them which will help in their spread. And we are not sending telegrams to nations but to regions. And yes, I do believe NS without Nazis or NS where Nazis are isolated collectively and forced out of the game is a better NS.

[Drittes Deutsches Reich]

Do you believe fighting symbols will make a difference in the grand scheme of things? Do you believe sending threatening telegrams to nations over an embassy will make the game a better place?

CAIN is not just fighting symbols. The current list of Nazi regions is not final, more regions will be added in the future as we receive convincing evidences against them. Having relations with Nazis will create a welcoming environment for them which will help in their spread. And we are not sending telegrams to nations but to regions. And yes, I do believe NS without Nazis or NS where Nazis are isolated collectively and forced out of the game is a better NS.

You only attack racists/homophobes/Islamophobes who associate themselves with Germany ==> You fight symbols, not attitudes.

Someone should really tell him the plural of "evidence" isn't "evidences".

[Cerian Quilor]

Do you believe fighting symbols will make a difference in the grand scheme of things? Do you believe sending threatening telegrams to nations over an embassy will make the game a better place?

CAIN is not just fighting symbols. The current list of Nazi regions is not final, more regions will be added in the future as we receive convincing evidences against them. Having relations with Nazis will create a welcoming environment for them which will help in their spread. And we are not sending telegrams to nations but to regions. And yes, I do believe NS without Nazis or NS where Nazis are isolated collectively and forced out of the game is a better NS.

And then what happens? Oh, right, the people among these Nazi Regions who are actual Nazis finally get off the computer and actually do Nazi things.

Seems a little counterproductive. Shouldn't we let them waste their lives on the computer?

(Not that we can actually drive out Nazis, because only Max Barry cracking down on them harder can)

[LollerLand]

CAIN is not just fighting symbols. The current list of Nazi regions is not final, more regions will be added in the future as we receive convincing evidences against them. Having relations with Nazis will create a welcoming environment for them which will help in their spread. And we are not sending telegrams to nations but to regions. And yes, I do believe NS without Nazis or NS where Nazis are isolated collectively and forced out of the game is a better NS.

You only attack racists/homophobes/Islamophobes who associate themselves with Germany ==> You fight symbols, not attitudes.

Someone should really tell him the plural of "evidence" isn't "evidences".

As I said, that list is not final. Regions can be added and removed.

Oh and I apologize for the occasional mistakes in my English. English is not my first language.

[Cormactopia II]

What puzzles me about the argument that action against Nazis does nothing to stop them is that it ignores the counter-argument, which is that not taking any action against Nazis does nothing to stop them either. We saw this just months ago, during a prolonged period in which Nazis were largely ignored except for the occasional perfunctory liberation resolution to stop them from fully griefing a region. They kept doing what they always do, they just did it without any meaningful opposition. The argument that they will go away if they're ignored has not been born out by reality; they have largely been ignored in the recent past, and did not go away.

If one is going to argue that CAIN does nothing to stop Nazis, one must also acknowledge that ignoring them does nothing to stop them either. There is no stopping them, really; if they're determined enough, they can keep going no matter what other players do, until site administration does something about them (which seems unlikely). So the question then becomes, should action be taken against them? For me, that answer has always been yes. Even if the action taken against them doesn't do much, or even anything at all, to stop them, it at least lets other players whose regions are occupied and damaged by them and whose communities are upset by them know that someone is on their side.

On another note, I would like to once again bring up the creation of a centralized organizational bureaucracy to administer CAIN. It's really surprising to me that regions which have for years been resistant to joining organizations with that kind of bureaucracy seem open to it now. What makes anyone think this bureaucracy is going to work out any better than the numerous past examples of failed interregional bureaucracy? I realize different people will be running this particular bureaucracy, but we still see examples of the failures of interregional bureaucracy throughout NationStates history, no matter what the mission of the bureaucracy or who is running it.

[Sedgistan]

My word, is that the original topic I see all the way over there? Lets all go take a look before a mod comes past.

That. Particularly the exchange between Aimdar-Goomdar and Kanuadu.

[Cresenthia]

CAIN seeks to eliminate Nazism through isolation; no matter what its critics say, CAIN is making the right steps towards eliminating Nazism in NationStates. At the very least, we'll have an environment where no such hateful ideology exists as being promoted by regions.

Problem is, since CAIN only ever targets symbols, not attitudes, anyone unlucky enough to be targeted can just rebrand (while not changing his beliefs) and go scott free. This, among other reasons, is why CAIN, unless it changes, is certain to fail in improving the level of political discourse and environment on NationStates.

I wish. I was told that a simple apology would let my region off the hook. I was told wrong.

[Cerian Quilor]

What puzzles me about the argument that action against Nazis does nothing to stop them is that it ignores the counter-argument, which is that not taking any action against Nazis does nothing to stop them either. We saw this just months ago, during a prolonged period in which Nazis were largely ignored except for the occasional perfunctory liberation resolution to stop them from fully griefing a region. They kept doing what they always do, they just did it without any meaningful opposition. The argument that they will go away if they're ignored has not been born out by reality; they have largely been ignored in the recent past, and did not go away.

If one is going to argue that CAIN does nothing to stop Nazis, one must also acknowledge that ignoring them does nothing to stop them either. There is no stopping them, really; if they're determined enough, they can keep going no matter what other players do, until site administration does something about them (which seems unlikely). So the question then becomes, should action be taken against them? For me, that answer has always been yes. Even if the action taken against them doesn't do much, or even anything at all, to stop them, it at least lets other players whose regions are occupied and damaged by them and whose communities are upset by them know that someone is on their side.

My argument is not only are efforts like CAIN not hurting NS Nazis, that this effort is helping them, as it did in 2013, when the Great Nazi Crusade spawened at least three new Nazi Regions (Aryan Shield Command, National Socialist League and Das Dritte Reich, IIRC) and increased the total collective population of Nazi Regions by I believe twofold, if not more. So far, what data I have seen suggests the same problem here.

Moreover, I don't think doing nothing per se is the answer, I think this sort of large, showy, trumpeting fanfare approach is the wrong approach to take it. If we want to weaken NS Nazis, we need to make it politically and diplomatically toxic to work with them, but there are ways to do it that aren't CAIN. For a few years before the 2013 Crusade, GGR had been explicitly rejected as being part of 'Raider Unity' because of that toxicity, and unless I'm remembering completely wrong, Lone Wolves United, for a time, suffered in terms of who was willing to work with them because of their insistence GGR was part of 'Raider Unity'. Though they did manage to use it against NE at one point, so at least they turned that around.

While I think ignoring them, in the long run, is the better option compared to what CAIN is doing, I don't think the options are CAIN or nothing (leaving aside the fact that NS has never actually ignored them because Antifa was still enabling them. If you want to see if ignoring them works, you actually have to try... y'know, ignoring them.) This is not a binary set, in my view, Cormac.

Moreover, you're essentially arguing that we should encourage performative outrage for its own sake, and while that may be fine by your book, "because NAZIS," but I am never going to be in favor of performative outrage, whatever the topic or target. I've seen too many times where that goes, and it ain't a pretty place.

Finally, the biggest issue I have with CAIN, the 2013 Great Nazi Crusade, the Liberate Nazi Europe fiasco (and the backlash to Elias's repeal of it) and groups like Antifa are the way that they and their proponents actually act about this is the way that they act like anything they do here will have a meaningful impact on Fascism and Nazism and Naziesque ideologies in the real world. The Antifa WFE used to read something to the effect of "in honor of all those who lost their lives fighting fascism", as if anything they do will ever honor people who actually lost their lives. This is a game with a relatively miniscule playerbase, set against the internet's size, let alone RL.

The fact of the matter is that while going out and just deciding to punch someone you think is a Nazi is counterproductive in a lot of ways (unless you can make them throw the first punch, and even then there’s some potential issues) and not a good plan, it would do more to hurt the actual cause of actual Nazism and related ideologies than anything CAIN will ever be able to accomplish.

On another note, I would like to once again bring up the creation of a centralized organizational bureaucracy to administer CAIN. It's really surprising to me that regions which have for years been resistant to joining organizations with that kind of bureaucracy seem open to it now. What makes anyone think this bureaucracy is going to work out any better than the numerous past examples of failed interregional bureaucracy? I realize different people will be running this particular bureaucracy, but we still see examples of the failures of interregional bureaucracy throughout NationStates history, no matter what the mission of the bureaucracy or who is running it.

I do have to agree with you there. Even if I believed in CAIN's cause (or rather, thought it was a good idea), I wouldn't be in favor of this change. This will create an institutional base with an incentive to keep CAIN going even if they somehow manage to drive out Nazis or render them impotent. Because it's a power base.

I would imagine the reason why they believe it is necessary or will work here, ignoring the likely opportunism of at least some of the proponents of this change, can be summed up in this image:

[Cormactopia II]

My argument is not only are efforts like CAIN not hurting NS Nazis, that this effort is helping them, as it did in 2013, when the Great Nazi Crusade spawened at least three new Nazi Regions (Aryan Shield Command, National Socialist League and Das Dritte Reich, IIRC) and increased the total collective population of Nazi Regions by I believe twofold, if not more. So far, what data I have seen suggests the same problem here.

That argument is based entirely on correlation that has never even been close to proven to also indicate causation. When Nazi regions were growing, they were also actively telegram recruiting, which is a far more likely explanation for their growth during that time period. There has never been any conclusive evidence put forward that anti-Nazism was the most significant factor, or even a factor at all, in their growth, and yet it is cited by opponents of the anti-Nazi effort as gospel. It's essentially fake news.

Let me throw you some alternative facts: When Liberate NAZI EUROPE was still in place, Nazi forces were piled into NE to prevent it from being invaded. You know what they weren't doing? They weren't invading other regions, not on the scale they had been or have been since that resolution was repealed and NE was subsequently invaded and conquered. The threat of invasion was acting as a deterrent that was containing them. As soon as the threat of invasion was removed, they were no longer deterred nor contained.

Moreover, I don't think doing nothing per se is the answer, I think this sort of large, showy, trumpeting fanfare approach is the wrong approach to take it. If we want to weaken NS Nazis, we need to make it politically and diplomatically toxic to work with them, but there are ways to do it that aren't CAIN.

While there may be ways to do what you're suggesting that aren't CAIN, what you're suggesting was not being done before CAIN, and that is primarily why CAIN was created -- to organize the gameplay community to do exactly what you're suggesting. It is imperfect? Yes, but that's almost necessarily the case with so many regions involved. Such a large organization comprised of so many regions with very different interests is always going to be imperfect to some degree, and that includes occasional imperfection in the execution of its primary mission. The best solution is to work toward improving it, not to scrap it, because then we're just back where we started before it was created.

I do have to agree with you there. Even if I believed in CAIN's cause (or rather, thought it was a good idea), I wouldn't be in favor of this change. This will create an institutional base with an incentive to keep CAIN going even if they somehow manage to drive out Nazis or render them impotent. Because it's a power base.

I completely agree with this. The citizens of signatory regions should, when asked to ratify the amendment, reject it. They should not just go along to get along. This has the potential to destroy CAIN and do damage to its signatory regions, as interregional bureaucracy has always done in the past.

I will also note that, according to the Attorney General of Europeia, the proposed amendment did not meet the threshold for quorum established by the CAIN Charter, and thus the vote to forward it to signatory regions for ratification was invalid. As it is now clear that a new vote will be required, I urge the representatives of signatory regions to reconsider and do what is best for their regions by saying no to ADN, RLA, FRA, SovCon-style interregional bureaucracy, and voting down this amendment. Look at the former ADN, RLA, and FRA member regions, particularly the UCRs. Do you want your regions to look like them in a few months or, at most, years? If not, vote nay.

[Drittes Deutsches Reich]

You only attack racists/homophobes/Islamophobes who associate themselves with Germany ==> You fight symbols, not attitudes.

Someone should really tell him the plural of "evidence" isn't "evidences".

As I said, that list is not final. Regions can be added and removed.

Yes, that's the whole point. Regions can be added, but you're not doing it. Thus far, you've only ever done what I said above. That you can do otherwise doesn't change the fact that you don't do otherwise. My point still stands.

Problem is, since CAIN only ever targets symbols, not attitudes, anyone unlucky enough to be targeted can just rebrand (while not changing his beliefs) and go scott free. This, among other reasons, is why CAIN, unless it changes, is certain to fail in improving the level of political discourse and environment on NationStates.

I wish. I was told that a simple apology would let my region off the hook. I was told wrong.

My entire point is that regions should not be left off the hook for rebranding. In fact, the symbolism a given region uses should not matter at all; what should matter is the region's attitudes. If the region is racist, homophobic, Islamophobic et al, it should be targeted by CAIN, no matter what nation, group or time period it takes its inspiration from. Currently, the only thing CAIN is targeting is symbols, not attitudes, while claiming to be doing the latter (i.e. they're hypocrites) - they advertise themselves as combatting racism (and company), yet they, in fact, do not - the only evidence for this blatant fact you need is that, out of all the far-right/alt-right, racist, White-Nationalist regions on NationStates, CAIN targets none, simply because they don't call themselves Nazis, even though they act entirely as though they were. That is my problem with this organization. How many times do I need to repeat this...

[Frattastan II]

(Somewhat off-topic - I want to make this as a one-off comment, not a multi-page threadjack)

Look at the former ADN, RLA, and FRA member regions, particularly the UCRs. Do you want your regions to look like them in a few months or, at most, years? If not, vote nay.

You can dislike interregional organisations, or think they are unsuited to today's NS world, or think they can be too easily manipulated by larger members, but the idea that they 'parasitically' suck away activity is unsubstantiated.

There's no causation. It's simply unrealistic to expect the average region to be consistently active and influential for over a decade: the same happened to major independent, imperialist or invader regions (GB&I, TNI, pre-TBR DEN), who for various reasons have fallen into inactivity or irregular activity, and true counter-examples are extremely rare (10000 Islands, Europeia... Texas?).

[Cerian Quilor]

My argument is not only are efforts like CAIN not hurting NS Nazis, that this effort is helping them, as it did in 2013, when the Great Nazi Crusade spawened at least three new Nazi Regions (Aryan Shield Command, National Socialist League and Das Dritte Reich, IIRC) and increased the total collective population of Nazi Regions by I believe twofold, if not more. So far, what data I have seen suggests the same problem here.

That argument is based entirely on correlation that has never even been close to proven to also indicate causation. When Nazi regions were growing, they were also actively telegram recruiting, which is a far more likely explanation for their growth during that time period. There has never been any conclusive evidence put forward that anti-Nazism was the most significant factor, or even a factor at all, in their growth, and yet it is cited by opponents of the anti-Nazi effort as gospel. It's essentially fake news.

Correlation is really all we have to go by, Cormac, unless we can get inside the heads of the founders of those regions or the people that joined them and check. By the same token, Brunhilde has claimed that Captain Woodhouse left NE because of CAIN, and she's shown no meaningful causation there.

Let me throw you some alternative facts: When Liberate NAZI EUROPE was still in place, Nazi forces were piled into NE to prevent it from being invaded. You know what they weren't doing? They weren't invading other regions, not on the scale they had been or have been since that resolution was repealed and NE was subsequently invaded and conquered. The threat of invasion was acting as a deterrent that was containing them. As soon as the threat of invasion was removed, they were no longer deterred nor contained.

... did you really use the term 'alternative facts'? Come on Cormac, you know better than to use that phrase these days.

You know what Nazi Europe wasn't doing before Liberate Nazi Europe? Invading people. That was GGR, a region that NE didn't like or get along with or work with before the Great Nazi Crusade. You and your compatriots on the Nazi Issue are the entire reason Nazi Europa is militarily active today.

While there may be ways to do what you're suggesting that aren't CAIN, what you're suggesting was not being done before CAIN, and that is primarily why CAIN was created -- to organize the gameplay community to do exactly what you're suggesting. It is imperfect? Yes, but that's almost necessarily the case with so many regions involved. Such a large organization comprised of so many regions with very different interests is always going to be imperfect to some degree, and that includes occasional imperfection in the execution of its primary mission. The best solution is to work toward improving it, not to scrap it, because then we're just back where we started before it was created.

First of all, as long as CAIN exists, it's going to be trumpeting fanfare. That's what large interregional organizations do. I think the diplomatic efforts to freeze out Nazis can be done without something like CAIN, as again, that was accomplished before. Plus, CAIN's entire approach to diplomatic action is 'do as we say or we'll hurt you' ultimatums right from the start. CAIN, by all accounts, is a military organization first, not a political and diplomatic one. There needs to be at the very least, a complete reversal of emphasis in CAIN, and I'm honestly not prepared to believe that will happen with the current membership roster.

I completely agree with this. The citizens of signatory regions should, when asked to ratify the amendment, reject it. They should not just go along to get along. This has the potential to destroy CAIN and do damage to its signatory regions, as interregional bureaucracy has always done in the past.

I will also note that, according to the Attorney General of Europeia, the proposed amendment did not meet the threshold for quorum established by the CAIN Charter, and thus the vote to forward it to signatory regions for ratification was invalid. As it is now clear that a new vote will be required, I urge the representatives of signatory regions to reconsider and do what is best for their regions by saying no to ADN, RLA, FRA, SovCon-style interregional bureaucracy, and voting down this amendment. Look at the former ADN, RLA, and FRA member regions, particularly the UCRs. Do you want your regions to look like them in a few months or, at most, years? If not, vote nay.

Exactly. What this will create is a scenario where the people who rise to power in CAIN's leadership will have an incentive to keep CAIN going, and they'll push that effort in their home regions - similar things happened, as I recall, with Regional Assembly Reps and other top officials in the FRA and in all other orgs - the people in the interregional org rely on the org existing as their base of power, and that creates dueling incentives for them.

[Zenny]

Don't know if its already been said yet but all future evidence against these regions/individuals or any further additions should be screenshotted as half of the existing evidence has already been wiped by the users themselves, likely to hide their shame. Too easy to just delete posts and change imagery.

[Ninetynine Cats]

I will also note that, according to the Attorney General of Europeia, the proposed amendment did not meet the threshold for quorum established by the CAIN Charter, and thus the vote to forward it to signatory regions for ratification was invalid. As it is now clear that a new vote will be required, I urge the representatives of signatory regions to reconsider and do what is best for their regions by saying no to ADN, RLA, FRA, SovCon-style interregional bureaucracy, and voting down this amendment. Look at the former ADN, RLA, and FRA member regions, particularly the UCRs. Do you want your regions to look like them in a few months or, at most, years? If not, vote nay.

Sad for such 'elite' regions; don't they know their rules?

[Captain Woodhouse]

By the same token, Brunhilde has claimed that Captain Woodhouse left NE because of CAIN, and she's shown no meaningful causation there.

Tsk. Brunhilde can fabricate reasons for my exit from NE to suit her purpose, but I left because of a disagreement I had with NE High Command over NE's racist and obscene Discord free-for-all. CAIN formed shortly before NE got Discord.

As it happened, German Dragons believed I was 'keeping the white man down' in NE. He told me I'd been a 'useful idiot', but the time had come to unleash the full potential of the Nazi Death Star. And thus German Dragons attached an attractive, easily accessed chat venue to NE's WFE and encouraged NE Nazis and sundry racists to join him and NE High Command in posting the word nigger and 'anything except child porn' till the cows came home.

NE lost most of its officers owing to NE's new direction. One member who left was sexually harassed by a High Command member in addition to being grossed out by the in-your-face ugliness on NE's Discord server.

The most recent public exit from NE that can be attributed to the racist direction GD has taken the region: https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=23547273

[Cerian Quilor]

You were part of that region for years. How did you just then notice how racist they were? I mean this sincerely. They were hiding it all this time?

[Consular]

But Nazis on NS are "just roleplaying", right?

[Cerian Quilor]

I've always said many of them likely were/are just roleplaying, but that even if they weren't, I was skeptical of the efficacy or merit of the 2013 Great Nazi Crusade. I never doubted that there weren't actual racists among them. It's entirely possible I was wrong about my assumptions of the ratio (the election of trump showed us how well many young, white men were able to hide their Neo-Nazi and Neo-Naziesque views from their friends and relatives IRL while engaging in websites in the vein of stormfront), but even if I am, my concerns about the efficacy still stand (I haven't raised the whole 'most of them are probably just playing bad guys' arguement for a reason this time around )

But if, as Captain Woodhouse Claims, German Dragons and NE High Command really are this racist, how did he not notice for so long? Were they really hiding it for that long?

[Cormactopia II]

But if, as Captain Woodhouse Claims, German Dragons and NE High Command really are this racist, how did he not notice for so long? Were they really hiding it for that long?

I will point out that prior to opening a Discord for NE, their off-site forum was rarely used, and most of NE's interaction took place game-side via their RMB. So, yes, it is possible they were hiding it for that long, because racism on the RMB would have violated site rules.

[Cerian Quilor]

In theory, but one of the things of being a racist is that you don't think racism is wrong - you only hide it from others to avoid censure or social/actual punishment from those who don't (in the racists eyes) 'see the light'.

What would the incentive for all these racists be to hide their views for so long while still participating and staying in NE and NS? Where did they discuss their racism, or were they all silently hiding it until German Dragons brought in Discord? TGs? Private IRCs? A special racist-only forum not advertised?

I'm not really sure where I'm going with these questions, tbh, and we're starting to go offtopic from the subject of CAIN, so I may have to cede the point, though I'm not sure what I'd really be ceding.

[Captain Woodhouse]

You were part of that region for years. How did you just then notice how racist they were? I mean this sincerely. They were hiding it all this time?

You betcha they hid it from me. I'd had limited offsite contact to observe them in their element. I was here to play a game not social network.

After I left NE, members told me the same shit was going down on NE's Skype group. I'd never joined.

My argument is not only are efforts like CAIN not hurting NS Nazis, that this effort is helping them, as it did in 2013, when the Great Nazi Crusade spawened at least three new Nazi Regions (Aryan Shield Command, National Socialist League and Das Dritte Reich, IIRC) and increased the total collective population of Nazi Regions by I believe twofold, if not more.

I forgot to address that bit. Aryan Shield Command is a DOS player (not a region) who regularly sneaks back to the game to rebrand Nazism. The 'Great Nazi Crusade' didn't spawn NSL. NSL was created in '12 by former disgruntled TGGR member, Deutsch kaiserlichen Reichs, long before the '13 crusade materialized. DkR allowed ASC to gut NSL in a quest for pure Aryan wonderfulness in the game.

Hakidaku/Das Volkes Lebensraum probably didn't found Das Dritte Reich in response to the crusade either. He largely created discord between Nazi regions and confessed to faking his Nazi persona on this forum.

Nazi and fascist regions come and go all the time regardless of this or that crusade, Cerian.

[Consular]

Nazi and fascist regions come and go all the time regardless of this or that crusade, Cerian.

So would you say that efforts by organisations like CAIN don't increase Nazi activity (as some have claimed), but also don't do that much to decrease it either? Nazi activity is broadly unaffected by action or inaction against it?

[Guy]

Nazi and fascist regions come and go all the time regardless of this or that crusade, Cerian.

So would you say that efforts by organisations like CAIN don't increase Nazi activity (as some have claimed), but also don't do that much to decrease it either? Nazi activity is broadly unaffected by action or inaction against it?

In my opinion, there are two answers to this:

1) Nazi regions will come and go, regardless of campaigns of offensive operations against them
2) Such campagins do have some effect on the activity of Nazi regions, both positive and negative.

As long as Nazi regions are not proscribed by Admin, there will inevitably be some people interested in founding Nazi communities. Foundered regions are safe from such campaigns.

The second proposition is also self-explanatory.

A successful anti-Nazi operation may take away a home region and a community, if it is a significant region being invaded. On the other hand, being involved in a "war" on NS is also conducive to activity, and many mainstream gameplayers seek war as a means to increase activity (there is no shortage of examples of this).

There are some purported effects that I consider less likely.

A common argument for the efficacy of anti-Nazi offensive operations is that they "drain resources" from them. However, resources are only drained to the extent that Nazi regions are forced to actively defend their communities. So long as the option of hiding behind a foundered region persists, they can continue doing what they do, unfortunately. Even in the instances where they do tie down their WAs, that would prevent them from undertaking their own offensive operations, but doesn't really drain other activity.

Another argument is that the mere defeat, in and of itself, reduces the activity of other Nazi regions. While it's true that no one likes being on a "losing" side, you really only lose in NS when you define an objective and fail at it. For example, it's fair to say that defenders who see as their goal the defense of every invaded region may lose interest after a while. But I don't think this is the way that they play the game.

All in all, I think the bottom line is that as long as they can stay behind foundered regions, the effect described in (2) is limited. Nazi regions will come and go, unfortunately.