UK Politics Thread 18-inch Mark VI: Witty Title Forthcoming

[San Lumen]

Nigel Farrage is claiming the British people will revolt if Brexit is reversed. I'm not British so i'm curious what you guy's think.

from what I've heard its extremely unlikely to be overturned.

[Shamhnan Insir]

Somewhere between cold and negotiable:
Imagine you've just worked a hard week, now I mean hard physical week, you had great Saturday plans involving a lie in and then a decent lunch at the pub with a few good friends. But those plans were sunk and you had to return to your place of work on Saturday morning to sort a problem caused by someones apathy. Add to that you get delayed on your journey home and your friends left the pub after having a great time. You return home to find you need to do the washing with other chores and eventually get to bed at a late hour. You are woken in the morning by your partner, much, much earlier than you would have liked, but they have a fresh cup of coffee and a couple of bacon rolls for you.
Imagine how you would feel. That is how we should deal with the US currently. We're tired, more than a little grumpy, and are fighting a bad mental battle of emotional states, but the smell of coffee and bacon could maybe bring a small smile to our otherwise stiff upper lips.

Then your partner tells you that that's not pig bacon, it's from the ISIS terrorist in the basement. Your partner unzips their face and they're really Donald Trump, standing over your bed, wearing nothing but hundred dollar bills, offering you the fried flesh of some random Arab. And you try to wake up, but you can't, because this isn't a dream, this is reality.

I think the part of my brain that conjures images from understanding written text just suffered catastrophic synapse death.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Then your partner tells you that that's not pig bacon, it's from the ISIS terrorist in the basement. Your partner unzips their face and they're really Donald Trump, standing over your bed, wearing nothing but hundred dollar bills, offering you the fried flesh of some random Arab. And you try to wake up, but you can't, because this isn't a dream, this is reality.

I think the part of my brain that conjures images from understanding written text just suffered catastrophic synapse death.

That'll happen. Try putting vegetables in your ears and waving your arms like a ragdoll. That usually sorts it.

[Shamhnan Insir]

I think the part of my brain that conjures images from understanding written text just suffered catastrophic synapse death.

That'll happen. Try putting vegetables in your ears and waving your arms like a ragdoll. That usually sorts it.

Ragdolling as we speak, good thing I did the food shopping yesterday.

Nigel Farrage is claiming the British people will revolt if Brexit is reversed. I'm not British so i'm curious what you guy's think.

from what I've heard its extremely unlikely to be overturned.

I'm of the opinion the British people would just be mildly more pissed off with the eternal farting about contest that appears to be Brexit so far.

[Ifreann]

It just seems arbitrary to me, especially in the case of the UK. A nation of three countries on one island, a bit of another island, and various left over bits of empire around the world(it's one of my favourite factoids that the sun literally has not set on the British "Empire") is just fine and dandy. A community built over generations by the toil of people's ancestors. But people toiling today to build a European community for their descendants is somehow a step too far and will destroy Britain's institutions and turn the place into a backwater.

Why is it arbitrary? Britain is not an arbitrary country at all. Its nation-states have gone through long periods of historical change together with repeated political, social and economic consensus changing along the way.

And wound up as one country, which is apparently great. But if the same thing happened on a larger scale it would be bad, apparently. England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland can all be in one country just fine, but one country with most of Europe would be disaster, destruction, failure, and weakness.

It's obvious that if you expand your borders from your country to an entire continent, your country will change. Should it? Was there something wrong with it that required changing it? Is it noticeably better having gone through the change? Is what we have lost worth what we have gained? No in all answers. Our culture was doing fine. There was no reason to decide to change it to become part of a pan European ethno-cultural project. In the name of what, exactly?

Mutual benefit, obviously. There doesn't need to be something wrong in order for change to be a good thing. Just the possibility of something better.

[Arkolon]

So what should our policy be towards the US? I do not think it's worth risking sour relations with the US at such a crucial time, but sweeping Trump's bullshit under the rug is uncomfortable.

It's politics. She should hold her nose and get that trade deal done.

A trade deal takes a long time to write and negotiate, and will probably still be in the negotiation phase by the time of the next general election. If it takes less time than that, you can be pretty sure it's not a very inclusive agreement since it would have been hacked out without any idea on Britain's remaining legal ties with the EU. "Getting that trade deal done" is more like a long-term goal rather than an immediate action.

[CoraSpia]

It's politics. She should hold her nose and get that trade deal done.

A trade deal takes a long time to write and negotiate, and will probably still be in the negotiation phase by the time of the next general election. If it takes less time than that, you can be pretty sure it's not a very inclusive agreement since it would have been hacked out without any idea on Britain's remaining legal ties with the EU. "Getting that trade deal done" is more like a long-term goal rather than an immediate action.

Of course it's a long term goal. What I meant was that sh should secure our close ties with America.

[Vassenor]

A trade deal takes a long time to write and negotiate, and will probably still be in the negotiation phase by the time of the next general election. If it takes less time than that, you can be pretty sure it's not a very inclusive agreement since it would have been hacked out without any idea on Britain's remaining legal ties with the EU. "Getting that trade deal done" is more like a long-term goal rather than an immediate action.

Of course it's a long term goal. What I meant was that sh should secure our close ties with America.

So that when Trump's import taxes tank the economy they can drag us down with them.

[Souseiseki]

The possibility of a catastrophe implies also the possibility of a great success. Have you not played poker?

i don't want to play poker with the future of the country

especially when we already had the best possible deal within the EU

Because [in my view] this country will basically cease to exist as a recognisable entity if we had stayed in the European Union.

the only way that could happen is if we choose it. in that regard, trying to take the option off the table seems like a good political ploy from a cynical perspective.

but we might always just re-join anyway

Incidentally, do you (as in you) really care about the Falklands or Gibraltar? Does anyone who wants Britain to remain in the European Union actually care what happens to its overseas territories, or are these useful debate chips?

yes

ironic considering how even northern ireland tends to get treated by most of the UK

Withdrawal from the single market, favourable trade deals wtih the US and the EU, maintenance of the union and the overseas territories.

There's also a bunch of things I'd like to see happen after Brexit like a fast-track migration for skilled commonwealth citizens, open borders with the english-speaking countries, a free trade deal with the QE-HOG commonwealth, India and Japan, but I don't include these in a 'successful outcome.' These are personal pipe dreams.

i'm glad you admitted they are absolute pipe dreams, the kind of things people usually invent as a brexiteer strawman.

Probably because you believe in a made-up European nationality.

you'll probably say it doesn't matter, but britain itself was the result of deliberate, artificial and at some times forceful nation building. the only difference is a scale of time. if we teleported back 1707 people would be making the exact same arguments you are. funnily enough, there's a been a big rise in people identifying as english or scottish ahead of or indeed instead of british. that's fun.

The reason you don't see it as a difference is that you don't see it as a problem that our essential statehood is degraded by being part of the EU and you don't see that the trajectory will eventually result in our state being destroyed. So of course you don't think there's a difference. There is actually a massive difference.

We have to leave because if we do not leave our institutions will eventually be subsumed and destroyed, our native culture will be absorbed into a broader pan-European attempted culture-creation, and this country will cease to be a sovereign state and become a backwater province of a greater Union. So yeah, withdrawing from this plan makes a massive difference, actually.

for example, pretty much all of this is applicable to the story of north britain. except the ones you can argue failed, in which case why would they apply to britain in the EU but not the UK as a much more centralized state?

i mean, actually, yeah, i'd like to focus on that. either the UK itself is an artificial nation that has destroyed its smaller parts, in which case how can you justify supporting it while scaremongering over other people doing the exact same thing? or the UK is a successful nation formed of many that has managed to create one identity without destroying the other identities, in which case why do you assume the EU will be worse?

tfw you get mad when people misrepresent your argument but then you stop being mad and start being happy because you remember your side won and their side lost

tfw you think you've won but you've actually just handed the country over to people you know are going to run it into the ground and your enemies are getting ready to completely fuck you and possibly destroy the union/send it back to the days of low intensity civil war

"Theresa May just suggested NHS access could be part of huge US trade deal"

just came across this as i was typing this, lol, victory am i right guys

Our people, broadly speaking, know best how to manage their affairs and the future of the country

never thought i'd see you salmond posting

Britain has had hospitals and roads for centuries. It has been a prosperous nation for hundreds of years. It has protected its own peoples rights when the continent, and elsewhere, were plunged into darkness. In fact it has made tremendous steps in protecting the rights of others, too. We are not an incompetent and non-functional nation which requires foreign intervention to be managed. Where our institutions and systems fail it is up to us, as citizens, to rectify them - not to cry to a foreign power for protection.

your roads are in disarray. your hospitals are crumbling. your schools are failing. your government gives not a single shit about your rights when they think they can get away with it. let's see the great british public rectify it.

i'll wait.

edit: but we all know the tories are going to get a majority at the next election from brexit hysteria, don't we?

[Questers]

the only way that could happen is if we choose it. in that regard, trying to take the option off the table seems like a good political ploy from a cynical perspective.

but we might always just re-join anyway

The deal we got was very bad (despite being the best possible) because the outcome that it was going to lead to was dissolution. Eventually. If you don't believe that this would happen then whatever.

you'll probably say it doesn't matter, but britain itself was the result of deliberate, artificial and at some times forceful nation building. the only difference is a scale of time. if we teleported back 1707 people would be making the exact same arguments you are. funnily enough, there's a been a big rise in people identifying as english or scottish ahead of or indeed instead of british. that's fun.

That's true of many different nations that are successful today though. We can't, of course, change the past. We can change the future. With exception to the past thirty years or so, Union with Scotland was successful, for both Scotland and England. The EU has not been nearly as successful for either Britain or England or Scotland as the Union was. There is no evidence it will become more successful than it already has been.

for example, pretty much all of this is applicable to the story of north britain. except the ones you can argue failed, in which case why would they apply to britain in the EU but not the UK as a much more centralized state?

i mean, actually, yeah, i'd like to focus on that. either the UK itself is an artificial nation that has destroyed its smaller parts, in which case how can you justify supporting it while scaremongering over other people doing the exact same thing? or the UK is a successful nation formed of many that has managed to create one identity without destroying the other identities, in which case why do you assume the EU will be worse?

I don't say that the Scots can't or shouldn't leave. If they think they are part of the same country as us, they should stay. If they don't, they should leave. But meanwhile, they have been part of our Union for 3 centuries. For most of those three centuries, we have cohabited very peacefully and productively. The native laws of both lands were left broadly intact.

It's sort of interesting that people are becoming more home-nation in their identity.

tfw you get mad when people misrepresent your argument but then you stop being mad and start being happy because you remember your side won and their side lost

tfw you think you've won but you've actually just handed the country over to people you know are going to run it into the ground and your enemies are getting ready to completely fuck you and possibly destroy the union/send it back to the days of low intensity civil war

"Theresa May just suggested NHS access could be part of huge US trade deal"

just came across this as i was typing this, lol, victory am i right guys

your roads are in disarray. your hospitals are crumbling. your schools are failing. your government gives not a single shit about your rights when they think they can get away with it. let's see the great british public rectify it.

i'll wait.

edit: but we all know the tories are going to get a majority at the next election from brexit hysteria, don't we?

Britain's education system is doing just fine. PISA results are better than almost all European countries in science (but mid-range in maths and reading). Scientific output is significantly higher than any other European country. We still have the best universities in the European Union, by far, bar none. The roads are fine.

Britain has its problems, as do the countries of the rest of the EU. It's not a failed state.

[Questers]

Britain in the EU is chained economically by the neck to the only continent in the world without clear growth (except Antarctica). It is a historic global trading nation unable to negotiate its own trading agreements. It is probably the only island country in history to give up control of its borders, despite those borders being incredibly easy to police - and not just the physical territory of the country, but its fishing deposits too. This continent it is chained to is dying, wracked by a failing currency experiment, a serious demographic problem and internal social and racial tensions. The continent does not possess the economic clout to handle China, the political will to talk to America on equal terms, or the martial power to confront Russia. Trapped inside this continent, with almost zero ability to direct events, with its doors thrown open to any number of people who want to come and go as they please, its native institutions increasingly dominated by barely-controllable foreign authority, Britain did not have a future. We have to Leave regardless of whatever deal we had in the EU or will be offered out of it. That is all.

[Souseiseki]

>deliberately prevent europe from becoming more unified
>complain europe is not unified enough

>deliberately prevent europe forming an army
>complain europe doesn't have an army

[Questers]

Britain is so powerful that it broke up Europe's plan to make a social democratic Empire that would march to Moscow and make them sign the ECHR, or Britain is a totally pathetic weak little dumb country that can't even build a road. Which is it?

[Souseiseki]

Britain is so powerful that it broke up Europe's plan to make a social democratic Empire that would march to Moscow and make them sign the ECHR, or Britain is a totally pathetic weak little dumb country that can't even build a road. Which is it?

as a member of the UNDEMOCRATIC EU WHICH WILL STRIP OUR AWAY OUR SOVEREIGNTY AT ANY TIME britain can practically singlehandedly prevent these things from happening due to the requirements on how treaty reforms are done. this does not impact on its ability or will to fund its own infrastructure, which it is shit at. hope this helps.

we'd never actually march to moscow, burn me once etc.

also russia is already in the ECHR, it just so happens they're very russia about it. how does russia maintain its sovereignty in the face of such a nightmare?!

[Souseiseki]

i'm sure the UK will be able to talk to the US and china on equal teahahaa i can't even finish

[Questers]

Yeah except the UK isn't 700 million people. It punches above its weight whereas the EU punches below.

[Souseiseki]

Yeah except the UK isn't 700 million people. It punches above its weight whereas the EU punches below.

perhaps we should form a trade bloc with partners to combat this disparity

once inside, if punching below weight is a problem, we should endeavor to use what clout we have to push it in the right direction

[Questers]

Yeah except the UK isn't 700 million people. It punches above its weight whereas the EU punches below.

perhaps we should form a trade bloc with partners to combat this disparity

once inside, if punching below weight is a problem, we should endeavor to use what clout we have to push it in the right direction

Yeah it would be nice except the part where we have to give up control of our own country

[Ifreann]

Britain is so powerful that it broke up Europe's plan to make a social democratic Empire that would march to Moscow and make them sign the ECHR, or Britain is a totally pathetic weak little dumb country that can't even build a road. Which is it?

Russia joined the Council of Europe in 1996.

[Arkolon]

Britain in the EU is chained economically by the neck to the only continent in the world without clear growth (except Antarctica). It is a historic global trading nation unable to negotiate its own trading agreements. It is probably the only island country in history to give up control of its borders, despite those borders being incredibly easy to police - and not just the physical territory of the country, but its fishing deposits too. This continent it is chained to is dying, wracked by a failing currency experiment, a serious demographic problem and internal social and racial tensions. The continent does not possess the economic clout to handle China, the political will to talk to America on equal terms, or the martial power to confront Russia. Trapped inside this continent, with almost zero ability to direct events, with its doors thrown open to any number of people who want to come and go as they please, its native institutions increasingly dominated by barely-controllable foreign authority, Britain did not have a future. We have to Leave regardless of whatever deal we had in the EU or will be offered out of it. That is all.

And the UK does?

Anyway, being "chained economically" isn't a reality a law can change. Britain's manufacturing and service sectors are interwoven with the European supply chain and form an obviously integral part of it. Making it harder to continue to work within this supply chain by implementing contradicting regulations or tariffs would mean eroding the UK's economic base in the shape and form we know it today in the hope of rebuilding one anew, but having it pointing in the direction of the huge, glorious and magnanimous continent-states of South Korea and New Zealand, or wherever else the Leave campaigners hoped to get some trade deals.

[Souseiseki]

perhaps we should form a trade bloc with partners to combat this disparity

once inside, if punching below weight is a problem, we should endeavor to use what clout we have to push it in the right direction

Yeah it would be nice except the part where we have to give up control of our own country

well ideally we'd secure some key deals that would ensure we'd always be able to keep certain things if we wanted them

[Souseiseki]

>Porn blocking legislation to cement internet filtering in UK law
>DEUTSCHE BANK: The pound is 'increasingly irrelevant' since the Brexit vote
>UK-US trade deal will have 'very small upsides' for Britain, says former Bank of England economist
>Ex-British soldier says he was ‘kind of a torturer’ in Northern Ireland
>Barclays to make Dublin its EU headquarters after Brexit
>Theresa May refuses to rule out private US firms taking over NHS services

can't be arsed linking every article but fucking lol the united kingdom of great britain and northern ireland 2017 good job guys you did it

edit:

just so there's zero doubt here

>Porn blocking legislation to cement internet filtering in UK law (because they don't need to worry about EU laws on net neutrality or ECHR interpretations of what is a reasonable burden in a democratic society
>DEUTSCHE BANK: The pound is 'increasingly irrelevant' since the Brexit vote (because you threw the pound off a cliff and made the UK look like an unreliable trade partner that will throw decade long deals and its own economic health down the toilet on a whim)
>UK-US trade deal will have 'very small upsides' for Britain, says former Bank of England economist (because the gains will be outweighed by the losses from leaving the EU and the US will fuck you six ways from sunday)
>Ex-British soldier says he was ‘kind of a torturer’ in Northern Ireland (if only there was some impartial court that could handle human rights abuses, one which would be enshrined as part of the nothern ireland peace process)
>Barclays to make Dublin its EU headquarters after Brexit (i'm getting tired of typing)
>Theresa May refuses to rule out private US firms taking over NHS services (you know all those stories you used to hear about how the americans would use their economic clout and free trade negotiations to ramshackle little countries and destroy their industries so american business can profit? yeah, americans have had their mouths watering over getting to tear into the NHS for years, look forward to that when you're negotiating. also hoo boy if you voted tory then how many times does it need to be said? how many times?)

[Marcurix]

Britain in the EU is chained economically by the neck to the only continent in the world without clear growth (except Antarctica). It is a historic global trading nation unable to negotiate its own trading agreements. It is probably the only island country in history to give up control of its borders, despite those borders being incredibly easy to police - and not just the physical territory of the country, but its fishing deposits too. This continent it is chained to is dying, wracked by a failing currency experiment, a serious demographic problem and internal social and racial tensions. The continent does not possess the economic clout to handle China, the political will to talk to America on equal terms, or the martial power to confront Russia. Trapped inside this continent, with almost zero ability to direct events, with its doors thrown open to any number of people who want to come and go as they please, its native institutions increasingly dominated by barely-controllable foreign authority, Britain did not have a future. We have to Leave regardless of whatever deal we had in the EU or will be offered out of it. That is all.

The problem with comments like this is that it cheerfully ignores most the entire other implications of all those claims.

Because the demographic problems internal social and racial tensions are all happening in the UK too.

The continent does not possess the economic clout to handle China

I can't remember if it was you or not, but someone posted not that long ago about how the UK was the 6th largest economy in the world and we needed to embrace that fact.

you should perhaps embrace the fact that the EU is the largest economy in the world.

the political will to talk to America on equal terms

A hangover of the post-wars years, and it was changing.

or the martial power to confront Russia

Nevermind that this move has the capability to seriously wound our own capabilities beyond repair.

Trapped inside this continent, with almost zero ability to direct events, with its doors thrown open to any number of people who want to come and go as they please, its native institutions increasingly dominated by barely-controllable foreign authority, Britain did not have a future. We have to Leave regardless of whatever deal we had in the EU or will be offered out of it. That is all.

No, it's not all. Because you're completely ignoring the fact the UK could shield itself from a great many of those negatives that you listed, and you ignore the growing appetite for change.

Had the UK stopped lingering and wringing its hand and taken even a slightly more pragmatic approach to the EU it would have found many natural partners and be able to wield considerable influence. The vote to leave was not a calculated design, but a knee jerk reaction.

You don't get to go on about how Britain didn't have a future when that future is now in considerable doubt thanks to that vote anyway. Only now its seriously undermined our economic, poltical, military and diplomatic position.

[Hydesland]

>DEUTSCHE BANK: The pound is 'increasingly irrelevant' since the Brexit vote

>says increasingly irrelevant bank constantly on the verge of collapse.

[Fartsniffage]

>DEUTSCHE BANK: The pound is 'increasingly irrelevant' since the Brexit vote

>says increasingly irrelevant bank constantly on the verge of collapse.

My brothers partner got a job there after completing his masters in economics. Left after 6 months to go back to being an AV tech because it would be more stable.