Left-Wing Discussion Thread II: Behind 700,000 Bunkers

[Volco]

All of us stood with our nurses for our local hospital when they were on strike for a pay raise, but nothing yet. I'd love to be more involved with the group. (Kinda ironic, because I made the group...) But for now, no. I'll message the current president and the current manager of the social engagements about it!

I think that'd be amazing. Don't know the union situation in yanktopia, but I think it's good to ground yourself in those struggles.

I don't know the the union situation in [insert non-American country here] either, so we're both kinda blind.

[Bakery Hill]

I think that'd be amazing. Don't know the union situation in yanktopia, but I think it's good to ground yourself in those struggles.

I don't know the the union situation in [insert non-American country here] either, so we're both kinda blind.

I'm Australian, and from what I've heard from other people, we've got things a lot better un/fortunately.

[Volco]

I don't know the the union situation in [insert non-American country here] either, so we're both kinda blind.

I'm Australian, and from what I've heard from other people, we've got things a lot better un/fortunately.

Isn't Aussieland really right-wing? If so, how can the unions be good there?

[Bakery Hill]

I'm Australian, and from what I've heard from other people, we've got things a lot better un/fortunately.

Isn't Aussieland really right-wing? If so, how can the unions be good there?

oh dear hahah

We have that reputation for some reason, but your country, tbh, is far more right wing on almost every issue. For perspective the right is in power now, and our PM and pretty much all the cabinet publicly (albeit subtly) favoured Clinton over Trump. Our minimum wage is $17.70 an hour, abortion is not a political issue, we have universal health care, we have a student debt program that doesn't charge until you earn a decent income, I could go on haha. You're ahead on gay marriage and marijuana but that's due to institutional inertia.

And most of our unions are pretty damn radical. Some of our biggest are openly socialist and have been anti-war, environmentalist and pro-gay rights since WW2.

[Volco]

Isn't Aussieland really right-wing? If so, how can the unions be good there?

oh dear hahah

We have that reputation for some reason, but your country, tbh, is far more right wing on almost every issue. For perspective the right is in power now, and our PM and pretty much all the cabinet publicly (albeit subtly) favoured Clinton over Trump. Our minimum wage is $17.70 an hour, abortion is not a political issue, we have universal health care, we have a student debt program that doesn't charge until you earn a decent income, I could go on haha. You're ahead on gay marriage and marijuana but that's due to institutional inertia.

And most of our unions are pretty damn radical. Some of our biggest are openly socialist and have been anti-war, environmentalist and pro-gay rights since WW2.

Oh I know American is a right-wing shit-show. I'd love for a real political revolution to take place!

But that's nice to know about your country! Maybe I'll consider moving there instead of Iceland.

[Korouse]

What you are is due to the collective actions of humanity, not by a poor sect of farming people (which is likely what your ancestors were, like everyone else). And besides, you can still remain respectful and honorable of your ancestors while tearing down the old organs of society (whether the feudal order under the French Revolution, or the State under a Communist revolution).

Really, because I can cite numerous nations, civilizations, and tribes whose actions have never played any role in the formation of my genetic material or environment. Again, you presume that people identify the "old organs" as bad, and your cause as good, which I do not. I would prefer to enjoy the unity in language, ancestry, and culture that I share with millions of people then get rid of it to make a pact with peoples that I have nothing in common with outside economic occupation.

What's the point? I'm also Scotch-Irish. The fact that white Europeans (and definitely a lot of non-whites) multiplied and let biology take it's course leading to me barely seems like a good reason to put ethnicity above class.

[Bakery Hill]

oh dear hahah

We have that reputation for some reason, but your country, tbh, is far more right wing on almost every issue. For perspective the right is in power now, and our PM and pretty much all the cabinet publicly (albeit subtly) favoured Clinton over Trump. Our minimum wage is $17.70 an hour, abortion is not a political issue, we have universal health care, we have a student debt program that doesn't charge until you earn a decent income, I could go on haha. You're ahead on gay marriage and marijuana but that's due to institutional inertia.

And most of our unions are pretty damn radical. Some of our biggest are openly socialist and have been anti-war, environmentalist and pro-gay rights since WW2.

Oh I know American is a right-wing shit-show. I'd love for a real political revolution to take place!

But that's nice to know about your country! Maybe I'll consider moving there instead of Iceland.

Ah we've got our problems as well. Mostly in the way the country treats refugees and Aboriginal people. It's also really fkn warm.

[Kubra]

there is no more revolutionary a position than global nuclear war, you imperialist running dog.
It's like you don't even want the aliens to come.

For all we know, aliens could be giant mutant sloth people. Best to stay away.

the only civilization capable of FTL travel is an advanced socialist one that has read posadas
Cmon this basic

[Venerable Bede]

Then your vantage point is a bit impaired, it's not the 19th Century anymore. "Safe-spaces" are being touted as these very networks you're describing, and they can be absolutely used for self-congratulation.

Then your vantage point is a bit impaired, it's not the 19th Century anymore.

Saying leftists and liberals are the same is like saying traditionalist conservatives and libertarians are the same. Beyond a very broad, very general political orientation, the two groups do not have much in common and are in active disagreement on many fundamental issues.

It's the same with leftists and liberals. Liberals are basically happy with capitalism, they just think the system needs a little tweaking here and there. They are largely concerned with matters of procedure, process, and management.

Leftists want to overturn the system. Some of us want it to happen gradually and peacefully, others of us want to just burn the whole thing down, but we are radicals, not reformists.

Your mention of "safe spaces" showcases typical right-wing ignorance of the left. The liberal obsession with identity politics - which amounts to little more in practice than having smiling corporate procures with people of color - has little to do with actual leftist concerns. The way these campus liberals and the identity politics brigade lined up on cue behind neoliberal candidate Hillary Clinton is a perfect case in point.

Leftists want to overturn the system theoretically, but we're talking for practical consideration. Someone like Laurie Penny, for practical consideration, is not really distinguishable from a liberal, despite being a socialist.

Intersectionism is absolutely is a part of contemporary leftist concern, it actually has been for some time now. Just because someone doesn't like Clinton, doesn't mean they rejection intersectionist theory. Even the Wobblies accept it today.

[Great Minarchistan]

the only civilization capable of FTL travel is an advanced socialist one

Such as North Korea?

Sorry, I couldn't hold this one

[Venerable Bede]

Traditionalist conservatives and libertarians have very distinct philosophies that they apply to their lives (they also manifest much of their politics by voting, which leftists don't). For instance, traditionalist conservatives will almost unanimously agree that promiscuity is wrong, whereas libertarians will often not see anything particularly wrong with it, and this, even this which has little political implication, is still a sort of praxeological distinction.

Wanting to overturn the system isn't really meaningful unless there is a significant manifestation of that desire in how you live. Without that, how is it any different from saying, "We want Star Trek to be a reality"?

I'm not ignorant of the left at all. You seem to be ignorant that the left is no longer in the 19th Century, and intersectionism is considered of major importance; that is, the idea that all oppression is purely a matter of economic class conflict, as Marx held, is no longer widely accepted, and it is believed that while economic oppression is important, and the system must be overthrown, that it is not the only oppression of concern, and there are in fact multiple, distinct oppressions, some economic, some not, and that it is a war on multiple fronts. This is what blurs the line between liberal and leftist.

How do you know what we do man
do you drink in our bars and bang on the same tattoo parlours and join the same weird vancouver co-op farms

If leftism were as threatening as it was a hundred years ago, there would be a massive crackdown on it. The POTUS was assassinated by a leftist, for pete's sake (much to Emma Goldman's approval). 1,600 assassinations were carried about by revolutionaries in Russia before the revolution even happened. Leftism today is basically like liberalism in practice, that is, it works within the laws.

[Muinordgrad]

You know, when you think about it, when a Universal Basic Income is permanently established, and most menial jobs (from truck transport to fast food) are taken over by robots, will politics even matter?

[Great Minarchistan]

You know, when you think about it, when a Universal Basic Income is permanently established, and most menial jobs (from truck transport to fast food) are taken over by robots, will politics even matter?

If a budget can even support a Universal Basic Income... The latter seems plausible too, and politicians should've been wiped (or at least forced to earn a minimum wage) long ago.

[Bogdanov Vishniac]

If leftism were as threatening as it was a hundred years ago, there would be a massive crackdown on it. The POTUS was assassinated by a leftist, for pete's sake (much to Emma Goldman's approval). 1,600 assassinations were carried about by revolutionaries in Russia before the revolution even happened. Leftism today is basically like liberalism in practice, that is, it works within the laws.

Of course the failure of violent revolutions or campaigns of political violence in the past can be seen as proof that those methods just don't work, or when they do they have a tendency to follow the path of the first revolution and eat their own children.

That mainstream leftism in the west has given up those tactics means only that they use different means, not that they've given up.

You know, when you think about it, when a Universal Basic Income is permanently established, and most menial jobs (from truck transport to fast food) are taken over by robots, will politics even matter?

Hence why accelerationism is A Thing. A post-scarcity world looks a lot like a socialist one.

[Muinordgrad]

You know, when you think about it, when a Universal Basic Income is permanently established, and most menial jobs (from truck transport to fast food) are taken over by robots, will politics even matter?

If a budget can even support a Universal Basic Income... The latter seems plausible too, and politicians should've been wiped (or at least forced to earn a minimum wage) long ago.

We're getting to the point where we can just hand most of the job of "politician-ing" to computers anyway.

[The New Sea Territory]

How do you know what we do man
do you drink in our bars and bang on the same tattoo parlours and join the same weird vancouver co-op farms

If leftism were as threatening as it was a hundred years ago, there would be a massive crackdown on it. The POTUS was assassinated by a leftist, for pete's sake (much to Emma Goldman's approval). 1,600 assassinations were carried about by revolutionaries in Russia before the revolution even happened. Leftism today is basically like liberalism in practice, that is, it works within the laws.

Even when leftists do things that are illegal, they often still fall within the weird realm of "illegal but not really violent or dangerous". The sort of nonviolent civil disobedience supported by MLK have now been recuperated into liberalism, to the point that even protest against liberalism in this manner reinforces liberal principles and practice. Even when it is outside the laws, in the very few ways it is, it is built on an established tradition of protest which is lauded by liberals.

This is why I like insurrectionist theory.

[The New Sea Territory]

Of course the failure of violent revolutions or campaigns of political violence in the past can be seen as proof that those methods just don't work, or when they do they have a tendency to follow the path of the first revolution and eat their own children.

I don't see how you could call any of the major socialist revolutions failures, outside Germany. The revolutions were successful....it is what happened afterword which screwed things up.

[Kubra]

the only civilization capable of FTL travel is an advanced socialist one

Such as North Korea?

Sorry, I couldn't hold this one

insufficiently posadist

[Kubra]

How do you know what we do man
do you drink in our bars and bang on the same tattoo parlours and join the same weird vancouver co-op farms

If leftism were as threatening as it was a hundred years ago, there would be a massive crackdown on it. The POTUS was assassinated by a leftist, for pete's sake (much to Emma Goldman's approval). 1,600 assassinations were carried about by revolutionaries in Russia before the revolution even happened. Leftism today is basically like liberalism in practice, that is, it works within the laws.

Man so libertarians and conservatives can just look disapprovingly at the promiscuous or unpromiscuous and have a political identity, but we've got to bomb ambassadors? Can't catch a break, I tell ya.
In any case, if I do happen to bomb an ambassador, I'm fingering you as the guy that told me to.

[Mer Salcia]

If leftism were as threatening as it was a hundred years ago, there would be a massive crackdown on it. The POTUS was assassinated by a leftist, for pete's sake (much to Emma Goldman's approval). 1,600 assassinations were carried about by revolutionaries in Russia before the revolution even happened. Leftism today is basically like liberalism in practice, that is, it works within the laws.

Man so libertarians and conservatives can just look disapprovingly at the promiscuous or unpromiscuous and have a political identity, but we've got to bomb ambassadors? Can't catch a break, I tell ya.

Also, gotta love how the guy who chastised me for being stuck in the 19th century seems to think the left ended with Czolgosz, or that you have to be some kind of bomb throwing pamphleteer to qualify as a leftist.

[Mer Salcia]

How do you know what we do man
do you drink in our bars and bang on the same tattoo parlours and join the same weird vancouver co-op farms

If leftism were as threatening as it was a hundred years ago, there would be a massive crackdown on it.

First of all, the Left exists as a separate political identity, regardless of whether or not it is considered "threatening" by the mainstream. Working within, or without the laws is a question of tactics, not a question of principles. And political identity is largely a question of principles, not a question of tactics.

Secondly, there still are massive crackdowns on leftist activity, much of which occurs "outside the laws".

Ever hear of the Naxalites? The Zapatistas? The Green Scare? Ever seen what Greek anarchists like to do to cops? Did you see what went down at the protests against the Dakota Access Pipeline?

Maybe you should take a peek outside your 19th century history books and right-wing reality tunnel if you want to engage with the Left as it actually exists, instead of confusing it with liberalism or with a convenient caricature.

[The New Sea Territory]

Honestly the most thorough look at GamerGate I've ever seen.

While GamerGate itself is no longer relevant, the sort of 4chan bred anti-SJW crowd grew extensively because of it.

[Volco]

http://i.imgur.com/1xknXy8.png?1

Saw this racist guy on NS.

[Bakery Hill]

http://i.imgur.com/1xknXy8.png?1

Saw this racist guy on NS.

hahah what?

[Nordengrund]

I voted left leaning centrist even though I scored a -3.5 on the political compass. I lied and now I feel bad.