[DRAFT] Commend The East Pacific

[Drakkengard]

Oh my days, would you allow me to post a link of this thread in the TEP´s WA forum?
I think our members would like to know about it.

[Oh my Days]

Oh my days, would you allow me to post a link of this thread in the TEP´s WA forum?
I think our members would like to know about it.

Sure thing, I posted it on the RMB and PAX BOX but the more people see it, the better.

The empire bit is still a historical "Wha?"; that said, the rest of the line is good and could work fine without it ("APPLAUDING its incredible transformation to an extremely open democracy, where all may take part")

That would still be a historical reference, but one that doesn't provide any explanation, as it has to have transformed from something. Instead, I'll put "APPLAUDING its extremely open democracy, where all may take part".

As far as "high levels of activity" go, the word Activity carries nuances for NS veterans, particularly of the Gameplay variety, that isn't apparent to newbies. The line would be immediately recognizable to the first group but not so much the second. "ENCOURAGING" still is self-referential to the resolution, too. Something like "ENCOURAGED by the friendly and vibrant community of nations in TEP".

I'd always interpreted the word "activity" in NS terms in the same way as I would interpret it IRL. One of my first tasks in NE was looking for allies, which involved assessing the suitability of various other regions. I just took it as given that I had to see if people were logging on, posting on the RMB and interacting, and the best term I could think of to describe this was activity. Having said that, being "friendly and vibrant" sounds like a better aim than merely being "active". I don't see what's wrong with being self-referential, given that the Security Council is meant to be expressing opinions on nominees, but you can't really encourage a community without encouraging it to do something, so I'll use "ENCOURAGED"

The Security Council,

ADMIRING the diverse environment of The East Pacific, where different communities are encouraged to work together;

APPLAUDING its extremely open democracy, where all may take part;

ENCOURAGED by the vibrant and friendly community in TEP;

PRAISING the strong government, where the executive, legislature and judiciary all work in an open manner with the citizenry;

ASSERTING that TEP thoroughly deserves an official Commendation, particularly for its welcoming attitude to new nations;

HEREBY Commends The East Pacific.

what commendations are truly for, are to show the next generation of NSers how to be a great player by example.

How can they do that? A Commendation can teach people about a specific player, but it can't teach people how to play like him/her. To be a great defender, you would have to join a defender army, listen to what people have to say and work your way up. Reading Commend Sedgistan wouldn't make much difference. The same can be said for pretty much every community.

[Unibot]

Unibot wrote: what commendations are truly for, are to show the next generation of NSers how to be a great player by example.

How can they do that? A Commendation can teach people about a specific player, but it can't teach people how to play like him/her. To be a great defender, you would have to join a defender army, listen to what people have to say and work your way up. Reading Commend Sedgistan wouldn't make much difference. The same can be said for pretty much every community.

Players and err.. regions can be forgotten as dust in the windstorms of NationStates (in this case, a feeder isn't going to be forgotten, but a particular incarnation of its government may be), by immortalizing say, Sedge with a WA resolution, players can always take the effort to delve further into the character. However if a resolution is written well, I think it should be pretty clear how to be as great as them, for example the Commendation of Sionis, at vote, what made him tick was he wasn't afraid to completely ignore screams of "National Sovereignty!", when people were being neglected. It was his perseverance and his duty to help people using his resolutions. He never valued the opinion of a few ignorant and cold hearted soverignists over a large majority of people who were in misery, just because those few have the title of 'diplomat'. I think if you follow in that general footstep anyone will find their own individual characteristics to authorship, but the same sort of fearlessness will give meaning to your work which really defined who Sionis was (once you start compromising too much, you lose the intent behind the proposal, and you lose motivation).

What I'm saying is, could someone read your proposal, and say "Hey, I could run my region like that. That would work really well, those dudes down at the EP are pretty awesome for coming up with that!" not.. "Isn't every region pretty much like that?" or.. "Yeah, so? They're spectacular.. why should I give a flying fuck about TEP's boastful resume?"

Part of your argument could be that feeders are unique and that they will exist no matter what, so voting with your feet isn't exactly a viable option.. because TEP will still be around even if you leave in a mad rush. So the fact that a good system came out of a non-orthodox environment is astonishing.

[Oh my Days]

I don't think that you can learn a play-style by reading about it, you have to experience it through participation and hanging out with the people who practise it. If you join the FRA or TITO, you can become a good defender, so long as you listen to other people. If you want to write brilliant GA resolutions, follow the GA subforum, read through the passed resolutions and listen to drafting advice.

Let's take a look at Commend Sedgistan:

Observing the efforts of Sedgistan, as a long time member and current Arch Chancellor of the Founderless Region Alliance (FRA) to ensure interregional peace and goodwill,

This tells new defenders to join a defender organisation, which is obvious, and fight interregional strife, which is also obvious.

Remembering the liberation of Feudal Japan authored by Sedge, which was followed by a defeat of the raiders by a defender force led by Sedge and including members from the FRA, TITO, Equilism, Texas, Europeia, 00000 A World Power, Yggdrasil, The United Kingdom, Crusaders of Justice, Liberty Alliance, Antarctica, and Royal Federation of Nations, and a refounding mission assisted by Sedge,

This tells new defenders that Liberations are useful, that teamwork between defender organisations is useful and that sometimes refounding is a good idea. They wouldn't necessarily know all of this, but would learn it pretty quickly whilst being trained.

Impressed by the tireless work of Sedgistan to ensure the natives of Feudal Japan regained control of their region and kept control permanently,

This tells them that what the natives want is the most important thing, but that would be impressed on them early on in defender training.

Knowing there exist countless other regions Sedgistan has defended from the grips of raiders, amassing 222 points so far in his 3 years as an FRA Ranger, the second highest of all time,

This doesn't really tell them much.

Acknowledging the Security Council work of Sedgistan other than Liberate Feudal Japan, which includes authoring Liberate Free Thought, being listed as a co-author of Commend Todd McCloud, Liberate Utopia, and Liberate Land of the Liberals,

This reinforces the idea that the Security Council is important for defenders, but new defenders will see Liberations in action and cotton on.

Asserting that any nation that has done as much work as Sedgistan has to ensure interregional peace and goodwill should be commended,

This repeats the importance of interregional peace and goodwill, but as I said before, fighting interregional strife is obviously part of a defender's job


I'm not having a go, and I fully support things like this, you may recall that I made a plea for raiders to support it, but I don't see how it will teach new players how to play.

Part of your argument could be that feeders are unique and that they will exist no matter what, so voting with your feet isn't exactly a viable option.. because TEP will still be around even if you leave in a mad rush. So the fact that a good system came out of a non-orthodox environment is astonishing.

Definitely, I'm starting to think about a campaign TG more and that should go in it, thank you. Usually, if I'm campaigning for or against something, I make the TG up on the spot and C&P it to each other delegate, but this will take more thought.

[Unibot]

Let's take a look at Commend Sedgistan:

I've changed my philosophies towards the Security Council since the advent of Rule IV, with the devalue of respect, to provide morality in commendations, they have to be more for present and future audiences, then the nominee. I suppose if you needed exterior validation for actions, like a commendation, you shouldn't be doing it, but instead value your internal validation such as .. the feeling of success, the feeling of worth and meaning in what you do and who you are. We may think the real heroes of NationStates deserve exterior validation, but any real hero of mine just needs and wants a clear conscience and cognitive consistency. We shouldn't be giving them more than they want or need, because then our own motives become unclear, are we escaping moral obligations by declaring something supererogatory (beyond what should be expected of someone).. ? My preference would be then to commend nominees not for nominees, but for the future generations that they will inspire.. can people learn by example from Kandy, Goober, Sedge, Imagery and I hope, Sionis? This will add to the introspective satisfaction of a hero for what they've done, knowing that even if they stop doing what they've doing today that people will carry it on by following the accomplishments and duties that we have recognized as a council.

[Oh my Days]

Let's take a look at Commend Sedgistan:

I've changed my philosophies towards the Security Council since the advent of Rule IV, with the devalue of respect, to provide morality in commendations, they have to be more for present and future audiences, then the nominee. I suppose if you needed exterior validation for actions, like a commendation, you shouldn't be doing it, but instead value your internal validation such as .. the feeling of success, the feeling of worth and meaning in what you do and who you are. We may think the real heroes of NationStates deserve exterior validation, but any real hero of mine just needs and wants a clear conscience and cognitive consistency. We shouldn't be giving them more than they want or need, because then our own motives become unclear, are we escaping moral obligations by declaring something supererogatory (beyond what should be expected of someone).. ? My preference would be then to commend nominees not for nominees, but for the future generations that they will inspire.. can people learn by example from Kandy, Goober, Sedge, Imagery and I hope, Sionis? This will add to the introspective satisfaction of a hero for what they've done, knowing that even if they stop doing what they've doing today that people will carry it on by following the accomplishments and duties that we have recognized as a council.

I don't doubt that it's a noble intention to show new players how to play, I just don't really see how it can be done in Commendations. Condemnations have always had a bit of that, showing people how not to play, if they refelct genuine OOC Condemnation. I suppose it may be easier for a GA player like Sionis, as a Commendation is a much better reflection of his playstyle, but I can't see how it would work for a gameplayer. Of course, I may be proven wrong if someone can come up with a Commendation of that sort, but I certainly don't think that the existing legislation is particularly helpful for new players wishing to learn a certain playstyle.

[Unibot]

Let's take a look at Commend Sedgistan:

I've changed my philosophies towards the Security Council since the advent of Rule IV, with the devalue of respect, to provide morality in commendations, they have to be more for present and future audiences, then the nominee. I suppose if you needed exterior validation for actions, like a commendation, you shouldn't be doing it, but instead value your internal validation such as .. the feeling of success, the feeling of worth and meaning in what you do and who you are. We may think the real heroes of NationStates deserve exterior validation, but any real hero of mine just needs and wants a clear conscience and cognitive consistency. We shouldn't be giving them more than they want or need, because then our own motives become unclear, are we escaping moral obligations by declaring something supererogatory (beyond what should be expected of someone).. ? My preference would be then to commend nominees not for nominees, but for the future generations that they will inspire.. can people learn by example from Kandy, Goober, Sedge, Imagery and I hope, Sionis? This will add to the introspective satisfaction of a hero for what they've done, knowing that even if they stop doing what they've doing today that people will carry it on by following the accomplishments and duties that we have recognized as a council.

I don't doubt that it's a noble intention to show new players how to play, I just don't really see how it can be done in Commendations. Condemnations have always had a bit of that, showing people how not to play, if they refelct genuine OOC Condemnation. I suppose it may be easier for a GA player like Sionis, as a Commendation is a much better reflection of his playstyle, but I can't see how it would work for a gameplayer. Of course, I may be proven wrong if someone can come up with a Commendation of that sort, but I certainly don't think that the existing legislation is particularly helpful for new players wishing to learn a certain playstyle.

We'll here is a small start in that direction.

NERV once said that he never even heard about the term, "feeder", and that's one of the justifications for Rule IV. So, why not just give everyone a taste of gameplay culture by defining the term for them.

Hereby,

Defines a "Feeder" or "Feeder Region" as a region where nations do not necessarily need to migrate (forced or unenforced migration) to, to enter;

You may need to make an exception for Unknown..

Defines a "Feeder" or "Feeder Region" as a region that nations do not necessarily need to migrate to (forced or unenforced migration), to enter. With the notable exception being, Unknown;

However, one may not actually enter Unknown, their regional happenings shows that they were in the region, Unknown, so you could actually just get away with the first definition.

Lazarus is no problem either for the definition, because when your resurrected, you're shown as having been resurrected, but according to one's regional happenings, you magically transported from the region you died in to Lazarus. Unless of course you died in Lazarus, but then you migrated there and thus Lazarus is not by definition, a feeder.

I'd prefer a definition over say, listing the pacifics, because there is no real guarantee that all five pacifics will still be around, and there's no guarantee that we might not get more pacifics.

[Oh my Days]

Sorry, I don't understand.

I believed that you wanted not just to show people another playstyle, but teach them how to play the game according to that playstyle. Now, I could definitely do the former, just like with your definition of a feeder, but I honestly can't see how a new player could learn a new playstyle simply by reading a Commendation. Explaining what a feeder is can show people a lot about the feeders, but it won't teach them to be high-flying feederite politicians.

[Unibot]

Sorry, I don't understand.

I believed that you wanted not just to show people another playstyle, but teach them how to play the game according to that playstyle. Now, I could definitely do the former, just like with your definition of a feeder, but I honestly can't see how a new player could learn a new playstyle simply by reading a Commendation. Explaining what a feeder is can show people a lot about the feeders, but it won't teach them to be high-flying feederite politicians.

It's more about honoring the culture, as opposed to stripping it of culture and dumbing the language down.

[Ardchoille]

NERV once said that he never even heard about the term, "feeder", and that's one of the justifications for Rule IV.

You seem to have missed a great deal of the discussions that were actually about Rule 4, rather than about your misinterpretation of it. Nerv's remark was not a "justification of Rule 4", but an example of why the in-game (and hence illegal) term "feeder" needed explanation.

So, why not just give everyone a taste of gameplay culture by defining the term for them.

OmD has already provided an accurate and mercifully short definition of the term "feeder", as much as it needs to be defined for this proposal. Other writers will no doubt offer other definitions in other proposals, depending on the aspect they want to highlight.

[Kalibarr]

How is feeder a gameplay specific term?

It gets used by people from most every player group in the technical forum all the time.

[Unibotian WA Mission]

How is feeder a gameplay specific term?

It gets used by people from most every player group in the technical forum all the time.

I was wondering the same thing, but apparently not.

NERV once said that he never even heard about the term, "feeder", and that's one of the justifications for Rule IV.

You seem to have missed a great deal of the discussions that were actually about Rule 4, rather than about your misinterpretation of it. Nerv's remark was not a "justification of Rule 4", but an example of why the in-game (and hence illegal) term "feeder" needed explanation.

No, I was just being blissfully dishonest. Thanks for burning my strawman for me, though. Sometime in the near future I'll have to invest in one of the tin man thingies.

[Ardchoille]

Kalibarr, it's illegal not because it's a gameplay-specific term, but because it's an in-game term.

It's also smart to write a proposal so it will reach the widest audience possible; which is why. I assume, OmD defined it in the first place.

No, I was just being blissfully dishonest.

Confine your blissful dishonesty to proposal content, when it's merely politics. Blissful dishonesty about forum rules could be seen as trolling, and, given your history, it is likely to be looked on with a jaundiced eye.

[Unibot]

No, I was just being blissfully dishonest.

Confine your blissful dishonesty to proposal content, when it's merely politics. Blissful dishonesty about forum rules could be seen as trolling, and, given your history, it is likely to be looked on with a jaundiced eye.

I only lie when I need to, and I don't even know if that's lie, because I can't say if it is or not without lying. So you'll just have to take my word for it. God only knows what happens when someone is caught in the catch-all 'trolling' violation. Maybe I should just keep all my dishonesty and 'trolling' to a secret forum behind people's backs, that's a good way to go about things, this openness thing seems to be a pretty despicable trait on NationStates.

[Ardchoille]

...<snip> ... God only knows what happens when someone is caught in the catch-all 'trolling' violation.

The usual sequence with all rules violations is to begin with an informal warning. If the player fails to heed, it is followed by formal warning(s), short ban(s), longer ban(s), DEATs and, ultimately, DoS.

I am using the "catch-all definition, trolling" to "catch" the action of deliberately giving a fellow-player advice about the proposal rules when you know that advice to be wrong.

This is a markedly different action from using a strawman, which is a debating tactic used to misrepresent an argument. You may, in debate, misrepresent arguments; but you may not, anywhere, deliberately misrepresent the proposal rules.

"Trolling" would also apply to advertising a deliberate refusal to abide by the proposal rules or the forum rules.

You may note the repetition of the word "deliberate". Much of the definition of trolling relies on the intent of the player concerned. Your reference to "blissful dishonesty" indicates an intention to mislead, which is why you were given the informal warning in the earlier post.

Maybe I should just keep all my dishonesty and 'trolling' to a secret forum behind people's backs ...

Your choice of conduct on an offsite forum is your own, or its admins', concern; but on this forum, you will play by the forum rules, which forbid trolling.

[Ballotonia]

TOPIC: [DRAFT] Commend The East Pacific

Reading the 4th draft, I still feel that something is missing. The positive things mentioned could be said about many many regions in NS, and the only difference I see here is that it happens to be in a feeder. That's not worthy of a commendation, IMHO.

What's so different and special about TEP? Spell that out in the commendation, and you'll have my support.

Ballotonia

[Darkesia]

Frankly the problem is that the things that make TEP unique and special are commendation worthy because it is a feeder.

I'm thinkin' this just plain old isn't going to work. And believe me, I love TEP, it's candy foundation, foxxy rise, and it's current lovely incarnation.

[Bears Armed]

[Defines a "Feeder" or "Feeder Region" as a region where nations do not necessarily need to migrate (forced or unenforced migration) to, to enter;

(IC message follows...)

"Ur'rmm, then by your reckoning the International Democratic Union is also classifiable as a "feeder"? After all, our ancestors didn't have to migrate at all to get here -- well, not most of our Clans' ancestors, anyway -- because Ursines have actually dwelt in these lands continuously ever since the 'Great Awakening' occurred which was around three-eightCubeds of years ago..."

[Ardchoille]

Frankly the problem is that the things that make TEP unique and special are commendation worthy because it is a feeder.

I'm thinkin' this just plain old isn't going to work. And believe me, I love TEP, it's candy foundation, foxxy rise, and it's current lovely incarnation.

I'm quoting Darkesia, but this is partly for Ballotonia, to see if you can dig into that feeling about something being missing:

So, what is it about being a feeder that makes this sort of democracy and openness particularly difficult to achieve? (Size, turnover, the RMB not reflecting the region because it's full of ads, too few willing office-holders, too formal a structure?) What specific changes brought it about? Is it something about the tone, rather than the structure, and if so, what? When did it start, and why? How did they do it? Was the change from the top down, or from the bottom up? What should others copy?

I'm not trying to get answers to all those questions; that'd turn a proposal into an essay. I'm just hoping one might spark something that will help pin down the "missing" or "won't work" bit. There seems to be a general agreement that something good is going on in TEP, that it's something that hasn't been achieved before and that it 's particularly difficult to do whatever-it-is in a feeder. If so, it should be commended and -- if you can help Oh my Days pin it down -- it should be possible to write the commendation you want.

[Oh my Days]

Frankly the problem is that the things that make TEP unique and special are commendation worthy because it is a feeder.

I'm thinkin' this just plain old isn't going to work. And believe me, I love TEP, it's candy foundation, foxxy rise, and it's current lovely incarnation.

I'm quoting Darkesia, but this is partly for Ballotonia, to see if you can dig into that feeling about something being missing:

So, what is it about being a feeder that makes this sort of democracy and openness particularly difficult to achieve? (Size, turnover, the RMB not reflecting the region because it's full of ads, too few willing office-holders, too formal a structure?) What specific changes brought it about? Is it something about the tone, rather than the structure, and if so, what? When did it start, and why? How did they do it? Was the change from the top down, or from the bottom up? What should others copy?

I'm not trying to get answers to all those questions; that'd turn a proposal into an essay. I'm just hoping one might spark something that will help pin down the "missing" or "won't work" bit. There seems to be a general agreement that something good is going on in TEP, that it's something that hasn't been achieved before and that it 's particularly difficult to do whatever-it-is in a feeder. If so, it should be commended and -- if you can help Oh my Days pin it down -- it should be possible to write the commendation you want.

I agree that TEP's openness and inclusiveness in government are Commendable because it is a feeder, which makes things particularly difficult. It's more difficult to have such a Government because feeders are permanently prime targets for invasions, which makes it easy to get overly paranoid, hence the downfall of the Empire; it's incredibly difficult to contact the whole region; and you always have lots of different playstyles, so accomodating them all is tricky. In a UCR, the founder will usually start a region with a clear idea of how s/he wants to develop it. S/he will then send out recruitment telegrams to garner people who have similar ideas.

[Unibotian WA Mission]

[Defines a "Feeder" or "Feeder Region" as a region where nations do not necessarily need to migrate (forced or unenforced migration) to, to enter;

(IC message follows...)

"Ur'rmm, then by your reckoning the International Democratic Union is also classifiable as a "feeder"? After all, our ancestors didn't have to migrate at all to get here -- well, not most of our Clans' ancestors, anyway -- because Ursines have actually dwelt in these lands continuously ever since the 'Great Awakening' occurred which was around three-eightCubeds of years ago..."

That was easy...

Defines a "Feeder" or "Feeder Region" as a region that is created by no nation, where nations do not necessarily need to migrate (forced or unenforced migration) to, to enter;

[Oh my Days]

Defines a "Feeder" or "Feeder Region" as a region that is created by no nation, where nations do not necessarily need to migrate (forced or unenforced migration) to, to enter;

But 4 of the 5 feeders were created by players, the name UCR is a misnomer, AFAIK. I don't know about TRR and Laz, but TEP, TSP, TNP and TWP were founded - in the case of TEP, by some dude called Hitler The Great.

[Topid]

Defines a "Feeder" or "Feeder Region" as a region that is created by no nation, where nations do not necessarily need to migrate (forced or unenforced migration) to, to enter;

But 4 of the 5 feeders were created by players, the name UCR is a misnomer, AFAIK. I don't know about TRR and Laz, but TEP, TSP, TNP and TWP were founded - in the case of TEP, by some dude called Hitler The Great.

Laz was founded by Maxtopia unless I'm miss-remembering...

[Unibotian WA Mission]

Defines a "Feeder" or "Feeder Region" as a region that is created by no nation, where nations do not necessarily need to migrate (forced or unenforced migration) to, to enter;

But 4 of the 5 feeders were created by players, the name UCR is a misnomer, AFAIK. I don't know about TRR and Laz, but TEP, TSP, TNP and TWP were founded - in the case of TEP, by some dude called Hitler The Great.

Okay, that tidbit of history, I didn't know. That does make a definition, infinitely harder.

Defines a "Feeder" or "Feeder Region" as a region that has not been liberated by the World Assembly, and yet is physically impossible for a Delegate to impose barriers to free entry in;

[Ardchoille]

Now remove the word "feeder" and you've got it. You don't need it.

NOTES that The East Pacific is a region that has not been liberated by the World Assembly, and yet it is physically impossible for its Delegate to impose barriers to free entry.

I'd fiddle with that wording, myself, and I don't see why OmD's original description needs changing, but if you want that phrasing, drop "feeder".