NATION

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4th Grade Nation State

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Are you willing to apply your ideal government to a class?

Yes
146
61%
No
48
20%
Maybe
45
19%
 
Total votes : 239

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Xerographica
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4th Grade Nation State

Postby Xerographica » Sun Oct 09, 2016 3:32 pm

The basic premise of this website is really cool. Unfortunately, from my perspective, it's really not living up to its full potential. The results/outcomes of the experiments here on this website are not very applicable to the real world. Ideally... they should be.

My friend Michelle teaches 4th grade and we recently started transforming her class of 30 students into a nation state. Needless to say, the structure of her 4th grade nation state is primarily based on my perspective. Voting has been replaced with spending (coasianism) and students can choose where their taxes go (pragmatarianism).

For example... every nation needs a name. Rather than voting to choose a name, the class will spend their pennies on their preferred name. Each student will write their preference and willingness to pay (WTP) on a piece of paper. Once all the papers are turned in... Michelle will write all the valuations on the board. The most highly valued name will be chosen. The students who valued that name will make their payment. The rest of the students will not be required to make a payment. Instead, they'll receive all the money spent on the most valuable name. The amount of money a "loser" receives will be in proportion to their WTP. All the students who receive money will be required to eventually pay a tax on their income. They'll be able to decide which departments to give their taxes to. The departments, and their leaders, will be chosen by the students.

If my preferred system of government works for a class... does this automatically mean that it would also work for a city or a country? Not necessarily. But if it doesn't work for a class... then this certainly would cast doubt on whether it would work for a city or a country.

Lots of us have ideas about how the government could and should be changed. However, most of us are aware of the massive amount of harm caused by many of the revolutionary changes to governments (ie The Great Leap Forward). This leaves us between a rock and a hard place.

And since then, one of the central principles behind my philosophy has been “Don’t destroy all existing systems and hope a planet-sized ghost makes everything work out”. Systems are hard. Institutions are hard. If your goal is to replace the current systems with better ones, then destroying the current system is 1% of the work, and building the better ones is 99% of it. Throughout history, dozens of movements have doomed entire civilizations by focusing on the “destroying the current system” step and expecting the “build a better one” step to happen on its own. That never works. The best parts of conservativism are the ones that guard this insight and shout it at a world too prone to taking shortcuts. - Scott Alexander, SSC Endorses Clinton, Johnson, or Stein

Further progress requires recognising that America’s economy is an enormously complicated mechanism. As appealing as some more radical reforms can sound in the abstract — breaking up all the biggest banks or erecting prohibitively steep tariffs on imports — the economy is not an abstraction. It cannot simply be redesigned wholesale and put back together again without real consequences for real people. - Barak Obama, The way ahead

Voters, activists, and political leaders of the present day are in the position of medieval doctors. They hold simple, prescientific theories about the workings of society and the causes of social problems, from which they derive a variety of remedies-almost all of which prove either ineffectual or harmful. Society is a complex mechanism whose repair, if possible at all, would require a precise and detailed understanding of a kind that no one today possesses. Unsatisfying as it may seem, the wisest course for political agents is often simply to stop trying to solve society’s problems. — Michael Huemer, In Praise of Passivity (PDF)

It's a big problem when the best course of action is to stop trying to solve society's problems. I'm guessing that we can escape this paradox by conducting small scale experiments.

Is it ethical to experiment with a class? Clearly I don't think that my own experiment is unethical. Obviously neither does Michelle or her students. So far none of the parents feel that the experiment is unethical. That certainly might change down the road when any unintended consequences are revealed. Do any of you think that my experiment is unethical?

For those of you with big ideas about how the government could and should be changed (socialists, liberals, conservatives, libertarians, anarchists)... would you be willing to apply your big ideas to a 4th grade class? If not, why not? If so, how, exactly, would you apply your ideas? Would the results be unclear?
We know what this huge volume of trading is about. It’s about information, not preference shocks. Information seems to need trades to percolate into prices. We just don’t understand why. - John H. Cochrane, Volume and Information

Or would the results be clear?
The results are clear: a more durable, growing economy; 15m new private-sector jobs since early 2010; rising wages, falling poverty, and the beginnings of a reversal in inequality; 20m more Americans with health insurance, while health-care costs grow at the slowest rate in 50 years; annual deficits cut by nearly three-quarters; and declining carbon emissions. - Barak Obama, The way ahead

If you're confident that your big ideas would produce good results... then find a teacher (here's one!) and pitch your plan to them.

Here's an article and a video about engineers battling each other using robots. Would we be engineers? Yup. But would we battle each other with robots? Nope. We'd battle each other with results. The ideas with the best results would move on to the next round (a town?).

Here are a couple of relevant articles...

The Hive is the New Network
Sam Altman's Manifest Destiny
Forsher wrote:You, I and everyone we know, knows Xero's threads are about one thing and one thing only.

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Community Values
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Postby Community Values » Sun Oct 09, 2016 3:35 pm

Finally, I think I understand this one!

It's not unethical if both parties consent, as well as the parents/guardians of the children.

How would the experiment be conducted? Within Nationstates, or with the whole class, Fourth Wave style?
"Corrupted by wealth and power, your government is like a restaurant with only one dish. They've got a set of Republican waiters on one side and a set of Democratic waiters on the other side. But no matter which set of waiters brings you the dish, the legislative grub is all prepared in the same Wall Street kitchen."
-Huey Long

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Pandeeria
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Postby Pandeeria » Sun Oct 09, 2016 3:36 pm

No, because Communism wouldn't work in a class of 4th graders, nor any school class.
Lavochkin wrote:Never got why educated people support communism.

In capitalism, you pretty much have a 50/50 chance of being rich or poor. In communism, it's 1/99. What makes people think they have the luck/skill to become the 1% if they can't even succeed in a 50/50 society???

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Neanderthaland
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Postby Neanderthaland » Sun Oct 09, 2016 4:15 pm

Pandeeria wrote:No, because Communism wouldn't work in a class of 4th graders, nor any school class.

I had some success in a math class.

I erased the lines of division, and seized control of the means of multiplication.
Ug make fire. Mod ban Ug.

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Minivanistan
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Postby Minivanistan » Sun Oct 09, 2016 4:20 pm

Neanderthaland wrote:
Pandeeria wrote:No, because Communism wouldn't work in a class of 4th graders, nor any school class.

I had some success in a math class.

I erased the lines of division, and seized control of the means of multiplication.

And of course, those within your ranks that did not think your tactics would add up, were mercilessly subtracted.
I do not choose to be a common man.
It is my right to be uncommon if I can be.

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Neanderthaland
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Postby Neanderthaland » Sun Oct 09, 2016 4:25 pm

Minivanistan wrote:
Neanderthaland wrote:I had some success in a math class.

I erased the lines of division, and seized control of the means of multiplication.

And of course, those within your ranks that did not think your tactics would add up, were mercilessly subtracted.

They were irrational. But that's a tangent.

Image
Ug make fire. Mod ban Ug.

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Minivanistan
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Postby Minivanistan » Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:14 pm

Neanderthaland wrote:
Minivanistan wrote:And of course, those within your ranks that did not think your tactics would add up, were mercilessly subtracted.

They were irrational. But that's a tangent.

Image

Radical expression is the most difficult to police in any integral ideal.
Just be glad Jacobson is not still here to bug you to nth degree.
I do not choose to be a common man.
It is my right to be uncommon if I can be.

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:37 pm

Your friend should be fired.
He/Him

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we never run from the devil
we never summon the devil
we never hide from from the devil
we never

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Xerographica
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Xerographica » Mon Oct 10, 2016 12:10 pm

Community Values wrote:How would the experiment be conducted? Within Nationstates, or with the whole class, Fourth Wave style?

First you have to have a plan based on your ideal government. What's your ideal government? How would you apply your ideal government to a class? You'll share your plan with us. In the multitude of counselors there is safety. Then you'll find a teacher and pitch your plan to her. If she likes your plan then she'll implement it. You'll let us know that your plan has been implemented and you'll keep us up to date. Then we'll all judge the results of your system.
Last edited by Xerographica on Mon Oct 10, 2016 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Forsher wrote:You, I and everyone we know, knows Xero's threads are about one thing and one thing only.

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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Mon Oct 10, 2016 1:31 pm

Xerographica wrote:
Community Values wrote:How would the experiment be conducted? Within Nationstates, or with the whole class, Fourth Wave style?

First you have to have a plan based on your ideal government. What's your ideal government? How would you apply your ideal government to a class? You'll share your plan with us. In the multitude of counselors there is safety. Then you'll find a teacher and pitch your plan to her. If she likes your plan then she'll implement it. You'll let us know that your plan has been implemented and you'll keep us up to date. Then we'll all judge the results of your system.

So dictatorships are the longest lasting most stable governments according to classroom experimentation?

Perhaps there's something wrong with this mode of experimentation.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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The Two Jerseys
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Father Knows Best State

Postby The Two Jerseys » Mon Oct 10, 2016 1:34 pm

Xerographica wrote:
Community Values wrote:How would the experiment be conducted? Within Nationstates, or with the whole class, Fourth Wave style?

First you have to have a plan based on your ideal government. What's your ideal government? How would you apply your ideal government to a class? You'll share your plan with us. In the multitude of counselors there is safety. Then you'll find a teacher and pitch your plan to her. If she likes your plan then she'll implement it. You'll let us know that your plan has been implemented and you'll keep us up to date. Then we'll all judge the results of your system.

Yet you ignored all of us who proved that your system is flawed...
"The Duke of Texas" is too formal for regular use. Just call me "Your Grace".
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Xerographica
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Postby Xerographica » Mon Oct 10, 2016 1:36 pm

Pandeeria wrote:No, because Communism wouldn't work in a class of 4th graders, nor any school class.

Why wouldn't it work?
Forsher wrote:You, I and everyone we know, knows Xero's threads are about one thing and one thing only.

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Implacable Death
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Postby Implacable Death » Mon Oct 10, 2016 1:37 pm

Sure. Except that people would scream fascism in the blink of an eye, even though a lot of the measures I have in mind are logical if you peel away the "OH GOD NO FASCISM! DISCRIMINATION!" kneejerk reactions.
Okay so apparently these days it's hot and happening to show your gender.
I am MALE. WTF is cis? I am MALE. I like to belch and laugh at fart jokes.

Oh, by the way: gender and sex are the same thing. They are part of a binary system.
Transgenderism is not supported by scientific evidence.

The greatest evils of our day: islamism, liberalism, George Soros

How can you accuse me of evil? Though these deeds be unsavory, no one will argue: good shall follow from them.


The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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Xerographica
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Postby Xerographica » Mon Oct 10, 2016 1:37 pm

The Two Jerseys wrote:
Xerographica wrote:First you have to have a plan based on your ideal government. What's your ideal government? How would you apply your ideal government to a class? You'll share your plan with us. In the multitude of counselors there is safety. Then you'll find a teacher and pitch your plan to her. If she likes your plan then she'll implement it. You'll let us know that your plan has been implemented and you'll keep us up to date. Then we'll all judge the results of your system.

Yet you ignored all of us who proved that your system is flawed...

I never ignored anybody's criticisms. And I'm pretty sure that we have different definitions of "prove".
Forsher wrote:You, I and everyone we know, knows Xero's threads are about one thing and one thing only.

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Implacable Death
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Postby Implacable Death » Mon Oct 10, 2016 1:39 pm

Xerographica wrote:
Pandeeria wrote:No, because Communism wouldn't work in a class of 4th graders, nor any school class.

Why wouldn't it work?


Because communism doesn't work anywhere.
Okay so apparently these days it's hot and happening to show your gender.
I am MALE. WTF is cis? I am MALE. I like to belch and laugh at fart jokes.

Oh, by the way: gender and sex are the same thing. They are part of a binary system.
Transgenderism is not supported by scientific evidence.

The greatest evils of our day: islamism, liberalism, George Soros

How can you accuse me of evil? Though these deeds be unsavory, no one will argue: good shall follow from them.


The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Mon Oct 10, 2016 1:41 pm

Implacable Death wrote:
Xerographica wrote:Why wouldn't it work?


Because communism doesn't work anywhere.

Arguable - it's worked in small close knit communities from time to time.

On a large scale it's always failed over time.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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The Two Jerseys
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Postby The Two Jerseys » Mon Oct 10, 2016 1:45 pm

Xerographica wrote:
The Two Jerseys wrote:Yet you ignored all of us who proved that your system is flawed...

I never ignored anybody's criticisms.

Except when you repeatedly insisted that everybody would blindly use the system the way you envisioned and refused to acknowledge the likelihood that people would cheat the system to make a guaranteed profit.
And I'm pretty sure that we have different definitions of "prove".

No, you're just selective about which proof you believe.

Like mathematics.
"The Duke of Texas" is too formal for regular use. Just call me "Your Grace".
"If I would like to watch goodness, sanity, God and logic being fucked I would watch Japanese porn." -Nightkill the Emperor
"This thread makes me wish I was a moron so that I wouldn't have to comprehend how stupid the topic is." -The Empire of Pretantia
Head of State: HM King Louis
Head of Government: The Rt. Hon. James O'Dell MP, Prime Minister
Ambassador to the World Assembly: HE Sir John Ross "J.R." Ewing II, Bt.
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Navaronia
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Postby Navaronia » Mon Oct 10, 2016 1:46 pm

I think that it might be a good idea for the circumstances under it prepares (fourth graders) on the future and how countries are semi-run. But otherwise, it isn't a good idea.

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Implacable Death
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Postby Implacable Death » Mon Oct 10, 2016 1:48 pm

Galloism wrote:
Implacable Death wrote:
Because communism doesn't work anywhere.

Arguable - it's worked in small close knit communities from time to time.

On a large scale it's always failed over time.


But that's the clincher. All the communists I met have always hoped to bring about global communism, which is exactly where it will go wrong. As I remarked in another thread, mankind/society is not malleable in the way communism, or perhaps socialism, has hoped it would be. We've seen it fail in the 20th century over and over again, and now Europe is trying to do the same, yet again to the detriment of millions of people.
Okay so apparently these days it's hot and happening to show your gender.
I am MALE. WTF is cis? I am MALE. I like to belch and laugh at fart jokes.

Oh, by the way: gender and sex are the same thing. They are part of a binary system.
Transgenderism is not supported by scientific evidence.

The greatest evils of our day: islamism, liberalism, George Soros

How can you accuse me of evil? Though these deeds be unsavory, no one will argue: good shall follow from them.


The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Mon Oct 10, 2016 1:50 pm

Implacable Death wrote:
Galloism wrote:Arguable - it's worked in small close knit communities from time to time.

On a large scale it's always failed over time.


But that's the clincher. All the communists I met have always hoped to bring about global communism, which is exactly where it will go wrong. As I remarked in another thread, mankind/society is not malleable in the way communism, or perhaps socialism, has hoped it would be. We've seen it fail in the 20th century over and over again, and now Europe is trying to do the same, yet again to the detriment of millions of people.

But the statement I took issue with:

Implacable Death wrote:
Because communism doesn't work anywhere.


Is probably false.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Xerographica
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Founded: Aug 15, 2012
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Xerographica » Mon Oct 10, 2016 1:51 pm

Galloism wrote:
Xerographica wrote:First you have to have a plan based on your ideal government. What's your ideal government? How would you apply your ideal government to a class? You'll share your plan with us. In the multitude of counselors there is safety. Then you'll find a teacher and pitch your plan to her. If she likes your plan then she'll implement it. You'll let us know that your plan has been implemented and you'll keep us up to date. Then we'll all judge the results of your system.

So dictatorships are the longest lasting most stable governments according to classroom experimentation?

It's not much of an experiment when all the classrooms have been testing pretty much the same exact form of government. What would happen if a classroom tested your ideal form of government? Are you willing to find out?

What's your ideal form of government anyways? As far as I know it's the current form of government. It should be pretty easy to sell the current form of government to a teacher. Then we can compare your ideal form of government with my ideal form of government. May the best government win.

Xerographica wrote:Even though I'm an atheist, I really love the story of Elijah versus the prophets of Baal...

24 And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the Lord: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken.
25 And Elijah said unto the prophets of Baal, Choose you one bullock for yourselves, and dress it first; for ye are many; and call on the name of your gods, but put no fire under.
26 And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made.
27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.
28 And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them.
29 And it came to pass, when midday was past, and they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that there was neither voice, nor any to answer, nor any that regarded.
Forsher wrote:You, I and everyone we know, knows Xero's threads are about one thing and one thing only.

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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Mon Oct 10, 2016 1:52 pm

Xerographica wrote:What's your ideal form of government anyways? As far as I know it's the current form of government. It should be pretty easy to sell the current form of government to a teacher. Then we can compare your ideal form of government with my ideal form of government. May the best government win.


Wrong. My ideal form of government is rule by me.

Which will always work well for me.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Implacable Death
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Founded: Jul 08, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Implacable Death » Mon Oct 10, 2016 1:56 pm

Galloism wrote:
Implacable Death wrote:
But that's the clincher. All the communists I met have always hoped to bring about global communism, which is exactly where it will go wrong. As I remarked in another thread, mankind/society is not malleable in the way communism, or perhaps socialism, has hoped it would be. We've seen it fail in the 20th century over and over again, and now Europe is trying to do the same, yet again to the detriment of millions of people.

But the statement I took issue with:

Implacable Death wrote:
Because communism doesn't work anywhere.


I beg to differ. Did you know, by the way, that Karl Marx never worked a day in his life and spent his days mooching off of his friend?

Is probably false.
Okay so apparently these days it's hot and happening to show your gender.
I am MALE. WTF is cis? I am MALE. I like to belch and laugh at fart jokes.

Oh, by the way: gender and sex are the same thing. They are part of a binary system.
Transgenderism is not supported by scientific evidence.

The greatest evils of our day: islamism, liberalism, George Soros

How can you accuse me of evil? Though these deeds be unsavory, no one will argue: good shall follow from them.


The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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Xerographica
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6360
Founded: Aug 15, 2012
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Xerographica » Mon Oct 10, 2016 2:04 pm

Galloism wrote:
Xerographica wrote:What's your ideal form of government anyways? As far as I know it's the current form of government. It should be pretty easy to sell the current form of government to a teacher. Then we can compare your ideal form of government with my ideal form of government. May the best government win.


Wrong. My ideal form of government is rule by me.

Which will always work well for me.

Which is better?

A. the current form of government
B. my ideal form of government
Forsher wrote:You, I and everyone we know, knows Xero's threads are about one thing and one thing only.

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Mad hatters in jeans
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Postby Mad hatters in jeans » Mon Oct 10, 2016 2:10 pm

Seems like a neat idea.
Pandeeria wrote:No, because Communism wouldn't work in a class of 4th graders, nor any school class.

Spoken like a true bourgeoisie teacher. The pupilariat will overthrow their oppressors.
Ifreann wrote:Your friend should be fired.

Fou fan't fire friends Ifreann.

Galloism wrote:
Xerographica wrote:What's your ideal form of government anyways? As far as I know it's the current form of government. It should be pretty easy to sell the current form of government to a teacher. Then we can compare your ideal form of government with my ideal form of government. May the best government win.


Wrong. My ideal form of government is rule by me.

Which will always work well for me.

How would you feel if you were a citizen ruled by a clone of yourself?

Navaronia wrote:I think that it might be a good idea for the circumstances under it prepares (fourth graders) on the future and how countries are semi-run. But otherwise, it isn't a good idea.

When I was in school my class ran a post office simulation thing for a short while. It was pretty fun.

Xerographica wrote:
Galloism wrote:
Wrong. My ideal form of government is rule by me.

Which will always work well for me.

Which is better?

A. the current form of government
B. my ideal form of government

Trick question, neither.

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