Christian Discussion Thread VII: The Christ Awakens.

[Salus Maior]

If he has dominion over it, then why allow it to exist? If he can allow it to exist, then surely he could make it go away. It matters because you citing a definition is lazy and half-assed, I've seen puddles with more depth than that. I wager a lot of Christians would probably find themselves on a trip to hell. The interesting premise about faith is that you must hold an unwavering belief, even if you don't know. The interesting problem I find with the existence of Heaven and Hell is that these concepts undermine that faith. If a person does something simply because they believe they'll go to Heaven, then they do not have true faith, instead, they're expecting a reward, they're being selfish. If a person doesn't do something simply because they believe they'll go to Hell, then they do not have true faith, instead, they're afraid of punishment. It would seem to me that neither should need to exist in order to justify faith, yet they do.

Faith, for me, is just that. Believing in something that you don't know for certain. It's a game of Russian Roulette.

No one's saying that simply believing in God will earn you a trip to Heaven. Actually managing to behave in actual virtue plays just as big a role as that:

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matthew 25:31-46

And I would avoid statements such as "most people will go to Hell" considering only God has such knowledge, and to say such reveals a vast amount of arrogance on your part.

Also, humanity is responsible for evil existing in the world because we chose to rebel against God way back when, and suffering goes hand in hand with said evil.

1.God has the knowledge of Good and Evil, he'd need to have a darker side to understand that.

2.Furthermore, are you suggesting sickness and disease exists outside of God's control? Either he created it, or he didn't and has let it exist. Finally, the fallen were once angels, and thus, were children of God at one point. You've explained nothing about what faith means to you.

1. Not necessarily. I have knowledge of homosexuality, but that doesn't make me a homosexual. Having knowledge of evil does not necessarily make one evil, it's simply knowing what constitutes evil.

2. Nothing exists outside of God's control. However, He also granted us Free Will and with that will we turned the perfect world God made into a flawed one, bringing with that pain and suffering. God allows such things to exist because we're responsible for it. But He didn't leave us without means of overcoming it.

Perhaps He allows the existence of illness and disease in order to test if we can live in virtue, and therefore put our resources into healing and relieving the suffering of others instead of investing it into greed, war, and our own selfish pleasures?

[Aulatria]

If he has dominion over it, then why allow it to exist? If he can allow it to exist, then surely he could make it go away. It matters because you citing a definition is lazy and half-assed, I've seen puddles with more depth than that. I wager a lot of Christians would probably find themselves on a trip to hell. The interesting premise about faith is that you must hold an unwavering belief, even if you don't know. The interesting problem I find with the existence of Heaven and Hell is that these concepts undermine that faith. If a person does something simply because they believe they'll go to Heaven, then they do not have true faith, instead, they're expecting a reward, they're being selfish. If a person doesn't do something simply because they believe they'll go to Hell, then they do not have true faith, instead, they're afraid of punishment. It would seem to me that neither should need to exist in order to justify faith, yet they do.

Faith, for me, is just that. Believing in something that you don't know for certain. It's a game of Russian Roulette.

No one's saying that simply believing in God will earn you a trip to Heaven. Actually managing to behave in actual virtue plays just as big a role as that:

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matthew 25:31-46

And I would avoid statements such as "most people will go to Hell" considering only God has such knowledge, and to say such reveals a vast amount of arrogance on your part.

Also, humanity is responsible for evil existing in the world because we chose to rebel against God way back when, and suffering goes hand in hand with said evil.

Lady Scilla raises a good point though: if you do good things solely for a reward (either to earn your way into heaven or just to look good on earth), you most likely won't get into heaven. Of course, good works done for the glory of God as a result of faith will be rewarded, but it still doesn't earn earn your way into heaven.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

This is in part why for the last 200 years or so. The Catholic Church has been moving away from the whole "believe us or go to hell" emphasis.

[Jamzmania]

If you were to use the argument of "God already knows what you're going to say, so don't bother," then what's the point of praying at all? I also still do not believe that Jesus is establishing a ritualized prayer, he's simply giving an example. For example, in the King James Bible, verse 9 is rendered as such: "After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name."

"After this manner" does not mean "always pray with these exact words."

Well if you're going to completely misrepresent the argument presented then what's the point of this discussion. I, in no way, insinuated prayer was pointless, only that the methodology has been refined. You're making a false equivalency in asserting it then justifies for abandonment of prayer.

I really don't care what you profess to believe, the Our Father is the oldest ritualized prayer in Christianity going back to that day Christ gave it and is recited in virtually every Christian Denomination. You're objectively wrong.

I'm not saying that's your position, I'm pointing out the fault in your logic.

People can recite the Lord's Prayer if they want. I have no problem with it. I do have a problem, however, with the assertion that we should simply repeat memorized prayers all the time and abandon any attempt to pray from the heart. You get dangerously close to "vain repetitions" that way.

I've been going to the same big Baptist church for a few months now, and I've not once heard the Lord's Prayer recited. All of the prayer is, as you put it, spitballed. Saying "you're objectively wrong" when there is nothing evidently objectively wrong with my position is not an argument.

[Conscentia]

If there is no darkness in God, then how can darkness come from him?
There was no sickness or disease or death before the fall of man.
I could also use the argument Jesus used when they accused him of being able to cast out demons because he was the prince of demons. If he healed all types of sickness, he would be fighting against the will of the father, meaning he wasn't really the son of God.
That is what faith means to me.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."
Isaiah 45:7

[Luminesa]

No one's saying that simply believing in God will earn you a trip to Heaven. Actually managing to behave in actual virtue plays just as big a role as that:

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matthew 25:31-46

And I would avoid statements such as "most people will go to Hell" considering only God has such knowledge, and to say such reveals a vast amount of arrogance on your part.

Also, humanity is responsible for evil existing in the world because we chose to rebel against God way back when, and suffering goes hand in hand with said evil.

Lady Scilla raises a good point though: if you do good things solely for a reward (either to earn your way into heaven or just to look good on earth), you most likely won't get into heaven. Of course, good works done for the glory of God as a result of faith will be rewarded, but it still doesn't earn earn your way into heaven.

You have to work with both in mind, faith and good works! Good faith is all about balance. ^-^

[Jamzmania]

Lady Scilla raises a good point though: if you do good things solely for a reward (either to earn your way into heaven or just to look good on earth), you most likely won't get into heaven. Of course, good works done for the glory of God as a result of faith will be rewarded, but it still doesn't earn earn your way into heaven.

You have to work with both in mind, faith and good works! Good faith is all about balance. ^-^

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Well if you're going to completely misrepresent the argument presented then what's the point of this discussion. I, in no way, insinuated prayer was pointless, only that the methodology has been refined. You're making a false equivalency in asserting it then justifies for abandonment of prayer.

I really don't care what you profess to believe, the Our Father is the oldest ritualized prayer in Christianity going back to that day Christ gave it and is recited in virtually every Christian Denomination. You're objectively wrong.

I'm not saying that's your position, I'm pointing out the fault in your logic.

People can recite the Lord's Prayer if they want. I have no problem with it. I do have a problem, however, with the assertion that we should simply repeat memorized prayers all the time and abandon any attempt to pray from the heart. You get dangerously close to "vain repetitions" that way.

I've been going to the same big Baptist church for a few months now, and I've not once heard the Lord's Prayer recited. All of the prayer is, as you put it, spitballed. Saying "you're objectively wrong" when there is nothing evidently objectively wrong with my position is not an argument.

1. No such flaw in the logic exists. You're conflating two arguments and attempting to fit an argument from one paradigm into a different one, and because it doesn't fit you say the logic is flawed. This is what's called a false equivalencey, and it is a fallacy of logic on your part, not mine.


An anecdote that an independent Baptist church, doesn't say the Lord's Prayer is not evidence discrediting me, if it's evidence of anything it suggests your church is Apostate, but let's not go down that road .The Lords Prayer/our Father is the single oldest prayer unique to Christianity. The Psalms are even older. It is a unifying practice to recite prayer together in the same words, the same manner. Scripture, history, and tradition all point to you being objectively wrong, and so far your only defense has been "muh beliefs"

Your argument rests on the self made assumption that ritualized prayers aren't "from the heart". Which is beyond presumptious that you would dare to assume to know the authenticity of anyone's prayer beyond your own.

[Jamzmania]

I'm not saying that's your position, I'm pointing out the fault in your logic.

People can recite the Lord's Prayer if they want. I have no problem with it. I do have a problem, however, with the assertion that we should simply repeat memorized prayers all the time and abandon any attempt to pray from the heart. You get dangerously close to "vain repetitions" that way.

I've been going to the same big Baptist church for a few months now, and I've not once heard the Lord's Prayer recited. All of the prayer is, as you put it, spitballed. Saying "you're objectively wrong" when there is nothing evidently objectively wrong with my position is not an argument.

1. No such flaw in the logic exists. You're conflating two arguments and attempting to fit an argument from one paradigm into a different one, and because it doesn't fit you say the logic is flawed. This is what's called a false equivalencey, and it is a fallacy of logic on your part, not mine.


An anecdote that an independent Baptist church, doesn't say the Lord's Prayer is not evidence discrediting me, if it's evidence of anything it suggests your church is Apostate, but let's not go down that road .The Lords Prayer/our Father is the single oldest prayer unique to Christianity. The Psalms are even older. It is a unifying practice to recite prayer together in the same words, the same manner. Scripture, history, and tradition all point to you being objectively wrong, and so far your only defense has been "muh beliefs"

Your argument rests on the self made assumption that ritualized prayers aren't "from the heart". Which is beyond presumptious that you would dare to assume to know the authenticity of anyone's prayer beyond your own.

My defense of my position has been to simply look at the Scriptures. Nothing further is required. Jesus does not discourage "spitballed" prayer nor demand solely ritualized prayer. I'm ready to see some evidence that some ritualized prayer may be allowed, but certainly not required or to be used in place of prayer in one's own words. Meanwhile, your tendency to jump to "apostate" and "heresy" and the like are very telling. It seems like a leftover from "Do everything exactly as the Church says or you BURN."

It's also simply human nature that when you do nothing but repeat the same words over and over again they begin to lose their meaning. "My aunt's sick, which prayer is for that again?" Then you just say the words because that's what you always do. You don't put any thought into it.

[Salus Maior]

Speaking of praying, I'd appreciate prayers for me tomorrow. Taking my road test so fingers crossed that I get it.

[Neanderthaland]

God is the creator, thereby every ailment is also a creation of Him. So yes, it did. I'm asking what faith is to you.

If there is no darkness in God, then how can darkness come from him?

There was no sickness or disease or death before the fall of man.

I could also use the argument Jesus used when they accused him of being able to cast out demons because he was the prince of demons. If he healed all types of sickness, he would be fighting against the will of the father, meaning he wasn't really the son of God.

That is what faith means to me.

Just out of curiosity, if there was no sickness or disease before the fall, how did all the parasites live?

[Coulee Croche]

Speaking of praying, I'd appreciate prayers for me tomorrow. Taking my road test so fingers crossed that I get it.

Will do. You got this! Be safe and goodluck!

[Tarsonis Survivors]

1. No such flaw in the logic exists. You're conflating two arguments and attempting to fit an argument from one paradigm into a different one, and because it doesn't fit you say the logic is flawed. This is what's called a false equivalencey, and it is a fallacy of logic on your part, not mine.


An anecdote that an independent Baptist church, doesn't say the Lord's Prayer is not evidence discrediting me, if it's evidence of anything it suggests your church is Apostate, but let's not go down that road .The Lords Prayer/our Father is the single oldest prayer unique to Christianity. The Psalms are even older. It is a unifying practice to recite prayer together in the same words, the same manner. Scripture, history, and tradition all point to you being objectively wrong, and so far your only defense has been "muh beliefs"

Your argument rests on the self made assumption that ritualized prayers aren't "from the heart". Which is beyond presumptious that you would dare to assume to know the authenticity of anyone's prayer beyond your own.

My defense of my position has been to simply look at the Scriptures. Nothing further is required. Jesus does not discourage "spitballed" prayer nor demand solely ritualized prayer. I'm ready to see some evidence that some ritualized prayer may be allowed, but certainly not required or to be used in place of prayer in one's own words. Meanwhile, your tendency to jump to "apostate" and "heresy" and the like are very telling. It seems like a leftover from "Do everything exactly as the Church says or you BURN."

It's also simply human nature that when you do nothing but repeat the same words over and over again they begin to lose their meaning. "My aunt's sick, which prayer is for that again?" Then you just say the words because that's what you always do. You don't put any thought into it.

1. On the contrary, your defense has been your own interpretation of Scripture, "what you believe scripture is saying" to quote you paraphrasically, not scripture itself, as I have used the Church's interpretation of the very same Scripture to deny you. You liken yourself as an authority, trusting in your own understanding, claiming it orthodox, and yet denounce the Church, that Christ himself founded, which wrote and compiled the very scripture you appeal to. And you think what I say is telling?

2. Again you presume to know the authenticity of the prayers of others, be they ritualized or off the cuff, something no man has authority to claim, nor can they possibly know. The authenticity of prayer can only be discerned by God and the one doing the Praying. Your assertion on human nature, isn't based off any sort of scripture but off some hogwash your Baptist preacher put into you, the same sophist arguments evangelicals have been offering to justify their Hip and Cool Praise worships for the last forty years. You think the Catholic doesn't pray in earnest when they recite and meditate on the Rosary? You think the Soldiers and Marines who recite the Psalms, and pray to St. MIchael aren't earnest? You think you have to woo God with words you made up or God won't be impressed? You think a person praying for their aunt gives two more shits because they quickly made up a prayer rather than recited a ritualistic one? I think it's safe to say you don't have one inkling of an idea about anything you're trying to talk about. The authenticity behind prayer, rests in the intent in offering the prayer not the specific words said, whether ritualized or "spit balled," Which, interestingly enough was the entire point of Mathew 6, the very scripture you failed to interpret so spectacularly. Since, you can't even grasp that basic concept, I then yes, use the word Apostate for your church, because they can't even educate you on the basic mechanics of the Christian faith.

[Czervenika]

Ugh...what is wrong with me? For awhile I was consistently praying daily, but now I'm lucky if I manage it once a week. Perhaps I deserve all this hardship that has been coming to me lately >.>

[Luminesa]

Ugh...what is wrong with me? For awhile I was consistently praying daily, but now I'm lucky if I manage it once a week. Perhaps I deserve all this hardship that has been coming to me lately >.>

Just say prayers while you're walking around. If you see someone who looks depressed, or if you meet a friend and they seem stressed, say a quick 'Our Father' or 'Hail Mary' or something for them. That always helps. Don't give up!

[Diopolis]

Ugh...what is wrong with me? For awhile I was consistently praying daily, but now I'm lucky if I manage it once a week. Perhaps I deserve all this hardship that has been coming to me lately >.>

Most people who ask this question are suffering from nothing more than a lack of organization. The key is to set aside time for prayer, not to assume you'll get to it.

[Germanic Templars]

Ugh...what is wrong with me? For awhile I was consistently praying daily, but now I'm lucky if I manage it once a week. Perhaps I deserve all this hardship that has been coming to me lately >.>

If it is anything in comparison to me, I haven't been to an ordinary mass in over.... 4 years? No, I went in Basic on several occasions... So 3 years.. And not including Christmas mass that I have gone to every year.

Aside from that, I am with ya on praying. If anything try getting a pocket bible and carry that with you.

[Czervenika]

Ugh...what is wrong with me? For awhile I was consistently praying daily, but now I'm lucky if I manage it once a week. Perhaps I deserve all this hardship that has been coming to me lately >.>

If it is anything in comparison to me, I haven't been to an ordinary mass in over.... 4 years? No, I went in Basic on several occasions... So 3 years.. And not including Christmas mass that I have gone to every year.

Aside from that, I am with ya on praying. If anything try getting a pocket bible and carry that with you.

I do already have a pocket sized prayer book, but I don't exactly carry it around with me regularly. Maybe that's part of the problem :/.

[The Princes of the Universe]

If it is anything in comparison to me, I haven't been to an ordinary mass in over.... 4 years? No, I went in Basic on several occasions... So 3 years.. And not including Christmas mass that I have gone to every year.
Aside from that, I am with ya on praying. If anything try getting a pocket bible and carry that with you.

I do already have a pocket sized prayer book, but I don't exactly carry it around with me regularly. Maybe that's part of the problem :/.

This might seem irrelevant, but bear with me... Do you have an Apple or Android device?

[Czervenika]

I do already have a pocket sized prayer book, but I don't exactly carry it around with me regularly. Maybe that's part of the problem :/.

This might seem irrelevant, but bear with me... Do you have an Apple or Android device?

Yes I do.

[The Princes of the Universe]

This might seem irrelevant, but bear with me... Do you have an Apple or Android device?

Yes I do.

Try putting a digital prayer book on it (if one is available for the Orthodox)?

[Czervenika]

Yes I do.

Try putting a digital prayer book on it (if one is available for the Orthodox)?

I'm pretty sure there is. There's many Orthodox apps.

[The Princes of the Universe]

Try putting a digital prayer book on it (if one is available for the Orthodox)?

I'm pretty sure there is. There's many Orthodox apps.

That might help.

[Czervenika]

I'm pretty sure there is. There's many Orthodox apps.

That might help.

Yea. I can certainly give it a try since prayer has been a struggle for me.

[Salus Maior]

That might help.

Yea. I can certainly give it a try since prayer has been a struggle for me.

You're not alone.

I've had a hard time praying regularly too.