WAIF Telegram wrote:First of all, in case no one did so yet though they probably already have, I'd like to give you an official Welcome to the General Assembly.
Yeah, this needs addressing.
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by Gruenberg » Fri Sep 09, 2016 12:55 pm
WAIF Telegram wrote:First of all, in case no one did so yet though they probably already have, I'd like to give you an official Welcome to the General Assembly.
by Omigodtheykilledkenny » Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:09 pm
Sciongrad wrote:Snefaldia wrote:This player is admittedly trying to appear as an official part of the game to get new players to listen to them. In any other section of the game this would be hammered down without a second thought, as impersonating the mods or whatever.How is this acceptable?
This. It has been proven on this very page that new players may be fooled into believing a certain player has more authority than they actually do. Allowing players to masquerade as official authorities on anything when they are not does not contribute anything to the game except confusion.
by Talkistan » Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:44 pm
Sciongrad wrote:Snefaldia wrote:This player is admittedly trying to appear as an official part of the game to get new players to listen to them. In any other section of the game this would be hammered down without a second thought, as impersonating the mods or whatever.How is this acceptable?
This. It has been proven on this very page that new players may be fooled into believing a certain player has more authority than they actually do. Allowing players to masquerade as official authorities on anything when they are not does not contribute anything to the game except confusion.
by Auralia » Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:15 am
Omigodtheykilledkenny wrote:...they were trying to imply official status when they had none, and broader consensus support than they actually had (the "working group" had just two members, IIRC).
by Araraukar » Sat Sep 10, 2016 4:45 am
Calladan wrote:Since I appear to have started somewhat of a.... well - I am not sure what it is, I thought I would add something.
Apologies for absences, non-COVID health issues leave me with very little energy at times.Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
by States of Glory WA Office » Sat Sep 10, 2016 11:04 am
Sciongrad wrote:I will also provide some free advice to those players that feel it's necessary to use puppets because they wouldn't otherwise be taken seriously - don't be terrible to other players (especially new players) and maybe you won't need to trick them.
Araraukar wrote:I especially dislike undeclared puppets (that is, puppets that don't have, say, a forum siggy that mentions their main nation)
by WA Anti-Crappiness Service » Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:57 pm
States of Glory WA Office wrote:Normally, I don't delve deeply into TG matters. They are a form of private communication, after all. However, as someone who has received EP's telegram, I feel as if I need to add my two cents.
I actually think that the telegram itself (apart from the word 'official') would be very useful for newbies. It's certainly allowed me, at least, to voice my opinions on the WA in a private manner, something which is vital for new players who may be too scared to jump straight into the forum. Heck, I was the one who mentioned that the inaccessibility of active resolutions was an obstacle for new members.
What I find a problem with is that EP is attempting to make it seem official. Maybe I'm being optimistic, but I'd imagine that most newbies would listen to veterans (or, I don't know, mentors? ) without the need for any official standing as long as said veterans are polite, which the TG is. We've already seen Calladan be confused by it and they've spent some time here. Imagine the confusion of someone who's just started playing!Sciongrad wrote:I will also provide some free advice to those players that feel it's necessary to use puppets because they wouldn't otherwise be taken seriously - don't be terrible to other players (especially new players) and maybe you won't need to trick them.
It's especially strange as EP has actually supported me the most out of all the regulars here. Because of that, I don't want to be harsh, but I will say this (warning: soapbox ahead):
No newbie is going to scour through your posting history, looking for a shameful post. No newbie is going to discover your attempted condemnation of Bitely unless you explicitly mention it. Even if they did, the same would apply to your WAIF account, which has already participated in debates. You don't need to hide behind a puppet. I'd have absolutely no problem or objection with what you're doing if you were open about it. I think that what you're doing is great, but I think that you're doing it in the worst possible way. Some of us will have received a telegram listing the players who newbies thought were very helpful. Notice that EP was listed in that telegram, but WAIF wasn't. I already knew that they were both the same person, but Calladan clearly didn't know and I doubt that the other person who received the welcome telegram knew, though I may be wrong. Newbies already look up to you, EP, as do I; don't ruin it by deceiving them.
tl;dr: Help newbies using your main account instead of WAIF. Just be honest about it.
by Araraukar » Sat Sep 10, 2016 1:20 pm
States of Glory WA Office wrote:Just to be clear, you're fine with puppets in cases where it's obvious who the puppetmaster is?
Apologies for absences, non-COVID health issues leave me with very little energy at times.Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
by Board Committed to Embiggening the WA » Sat Sep 10, 2016 2:13 pm
by The Anti-World Assembly » Sat Sep 10, 2016 5:18 pm
by World Dissembly » Sat Sep 10, 2016 6:41 pm
The Anti-World Assembly wrote:In all seriousness, this is one of many reasons why trying to use the WA flag and name shouldn't be encouraged. We've already seen two joke puppets and other people are going to try their hand at doing it. People will be making a mockery of the WA! As it isn't already enough of a mockery![/spoiler]
by New World Assembly Order » Sat Sep 10, 2016 7:50 pm
World Dissembly wrote:The Anti-World Assembly wrote:In all seriousness, this is one of many reasons why trying to use the WA flag and name shouldn't be encouraged. We've already seen two joke puppets and other people are going to try their hand at doing it. People will be making a mockery of the WA! As it isn't already enough of a mockery![/spoiler]
People should be barred from making a mockery of the WA...especially by creating nations whose name sound like "World Assembly" when you speak very rapidly.
by Wrapper » Sun Sep 11, 2016 7:08 am
by Araraukar » Sun Sep 11, 2016 7:15 am
Wrapper wrote:The puppet spamming stops now.
Apologies for absences, non-COVID health issues leave me with very little energy at times.Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
by Wrapper » Sun Sep 11, 2016 7:41 am
Araraukar wrote:In that case, could we also have an official ruling (which Gruen sort of requests here) for an official-looking (aka not-a-joke) WA puppet nation acting as any sort of official authority? I realize this may take some time if the mod hivemind needs to discuss it as a whole, but it would be highly appreciated.
by Tzorsland » Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:41 am
Araraukar wrote:I especially dislike undeclared puppets (that is, puppets that don't have, say, a forum siggy that mentions their main nation), and even more so puppet accounts that appear to have any sort of authority over others.
by Excidium Planetis » Sun Sep 11, 2016 1:35 pm
Wallenburg wrote:If they used WAIF solely in its pseudo-official capacity, I'd be fine with it, but it's really just become another face with which Excidium can make the same arguments. So yeah, you're not the only one.
Gruenberg wrote:It may not be against the letter of the rules as far as the mods are concerned, but as players we should definitely be concerned about this, with it being demonstrated some people are already getting confused as to whether the nation has any official status or no.
As time has shown, though, there's no real way of combating a telegram campaign, so it'll have to be a concerted effort on the forum.
Snefaldia wrote:I'm sorry, there absolutely needs to be a rule regarding player use of game imagery/names/logos/whatever when it comes to communicating with other players.
I fail to see the difference between a player using a puppet to assume an illusion of authority when dealing with others in the WA and someone pretending to be the nation of "Nationstates Moderators Compliance Agency" and sending rules clarifications to others. That kind of nonsense would get someone disciplined immediately.
What makes it even worse is that this player has openly admitted that their use of WA imagery and the appearance of authority is intentional:World Assembly Improvement Foundation wrote:Well, I have as much authority as you. Well, maybe a little bit more, but that's negligible.
I'm trying to appear as an authority because human nature dictates that people are more likely to submit to authority figures than random people telling them what not to do.
This player is admittedly trying to appear as an official part of the game to get new players to listen to them.
Sciongrad wrote:This. It has been proven on this very page that new players may be fooled into believing a certain player has more authority than they actually do.
Allowing players to masquerade as official authorities on anything when they are not does not contribute anything to the game except confusion.
Excidium Planetis seems to be mocking their critics by continuing to post using their sham account.
I will also provide some free advice to those players that feel it's necessary to use puppets because they wouldn't otherwise be taken seriously - don't be terrible to other players (especially new players) and maybe you won't need to trick them.
Talkistan wrote: Maybe I read wrong or maybe it wasn't a moderator that said it, but I'm pretty sure someone masquerading as the WA and sending campaign TGs should be frowned upon rather furiously with both eyebrows.
States of Glory WA Office wrote:Maybe I'm being optimistic, but I'd imagine that most newbies would listen to veterans (or, I don't know, mentors? ) without the need for any official standing as long as said veterans are polite, which the TG is.
We've already seen Calladan be confused by it and they've spent some time here. Imagine the confusion of someone who's just started playing!
Some of us will have received a telegram listing the players who newbies thought were very helpful. Notice that EP was listed in that telegram, but WAIF wasn't.
WA Anti-Crappiness Service wrote:And you know you should take my word for that, because I'm the WA Anti-Crappiness Service and I speak for all WA nations on the topic of things that are crappy. [/pedagogical irony]
Board Committed to Embiggening the WA wrote:snip
The Anti-World Assembly wrote:In all seriousness, this is one of many reasons why trying to use the WA flag and name shouldn't be encouraged. We've already seen two joke puppets and other people are going to try their hand at doing it.
World Dissembly wrote:snip
New World Assembly Order wrote:snip
Singaporean Transhumans wrote:You didn't know about Excidium? The greatest space nomads in the NS multiverse with a healthy dose (read: over 9000 percent) of realism?
Saveyou Island wrote:"Warmest welcomes to the Assembly, ambassador. You'll soon learn to hate everyone here."
Imperium Anglorum wrote:Digital Network Defence is pretty meh
News: AI wins Dawn Fleet election for High Counselor.
by Sciongrad » Sun Sep 11, 2016 2:48 pm
Excidium Planetis wrote:-snip-
EP wrote:I'm trying to appear as an authority because human nature dictates that people are more likely to submit to authority figures than random people telling them what not to do.
by States of Glory WA Office » Sun Sep 11, 2016 3:45 pm
Excidium Planetis wrote:Gruenberg wrote:It may not be against the letter of the rules as far as the mods are concerned, but as players we should definitely be concerned about this, with it being demonstrated some people are already getting confused as to whether the nation has any official status or no.
Why should players be concerned that someone is welcoming players to the GA and asking for feedback on the job regulars did in welcoming players?
Excidium Planetis wrote:We might also want to delete all the United Nations puppets too, we don't want those players who still think the UN is part of NS to get confused and think that the UN puppets are official (and yes, those players exist).
Excidium Planetis wrote:And why stop at NS, why not include the real world too? We should ban the use of real life people like Donald Trump in nation names or flags so that people don't mistakenly assume those players actually speak for Donald Trump.
Excidium Planetis wrote:Using the WA flag/name/logo however, is not inherently bad. In fact, it has been used by many players for years to no real detriment in the vast majority of cases. Do you think Bears Armed WA Mission and WA Kitty Kops both hurt the game by using WA in their titles (and in the flag for the latter case)?
Excidium Planetis wrote:Sciongrad wrote:I will also provide some free advice to those players that feel it's necessary to use puppets because they wouldn't otherwise be taken seriously - don't be terrible to other players (especially new players) and maybe you won't need to trick them.
That's excellent advice. Maybe you should try not being terrible to people yourself. You know, like not mocking other players and pretending it is "advice".
Excidium Planetis wrote:States of Glory WA Office wrote:Maybe I'm being optimistic, but I'd imagine that most newbies would listen to veterans (or, I don't know, mentors? ) without the need for any official standing as long as said veterans are polite, which the TG is.
It's a matter of debate, but I think Auralia's repeal effort demonstrated that players are far more likely to listen to a WA flag than just some GA regular they've never heard of before.
Excidium Planetis wrote:Ovybia's Child Destruction ban or whatever the title ended up being showed that even OOC affiliation with certain values can cause others to question your motives and your proposal (by this I mean idea, not a literal resolution-to-be proposal). So why would I want to risk new players associating my words with EP's values, when nothing of the sort is intended? This can even occur for players who do not read a single one of my posts, because EP is a WA Delegate of a region and thus players may assume that I would be speaking in my capacity as a Delegate.
Excidium Planetis wrote:States of Glory WA Office wrote:Some of us will have received a telegram listing the players who newbies thought were very helpful. Notice that EP was listed in that telegram, but WAIF wasn't.
EP was listed because another player mentioned EP as being helpful in a whole list of players, and I do not believe that player realized WAIF and EP were the same person.
Excidium Planetis wrote:It's pretty clear all those puppets are pointless and exist for no reason than to be jokes. WAIF was created for a reason and was not a joke.
by Imperium Anglorum » Sun Sep 11, 2016 6:59 pm
States of Glory WA Office wrote:Excidium Planetis wrote:Ovybia's Child Destruction ban or whatever the title ended up being showed that even OOC affiliation with certain values can cause others to question your motives and your proposal (by this I mean idea, not a literal resolution-to-be proposal). So why would I want to risk new players associating my words with EP's values, when nothing of the sort is intended? This can even occur for players who do not read a single one of my posts, because EP is a WA Delegate of a region and thus players may assume that I would be speaking in my capacity as a Delegate.
Like I said, who's going to check?
by Excidium Planetis » Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:51 pm
Excidium Planetis wrote:We might also want to delete all the United Nations puppets too, we don't want those players who still think the UN is part of NS to get confused and think that the UN puppets are official (and yes, those players exist).
There's a difference between a newbie thinking that someone is acting on the behalf on a defunct organisation and thinking that someone is acting on the behalf of an active organisation.
Excidium Planetis wrote:And why stop at NS, why not include the real world too? We should ban the use of real life people like Donald Trump in nation names or flags so that people don't mistakenly assume those players actually speak for Donald Trump.
There's been an example of someone getting confused by the use of the WA flag. Show me where someone has gotten confused by the use of Donald Trump's image.
Excidium Planetis wrote:Are you actually suggesting that people are going to mistake an obvious WA puppet and a nation with 'Kitty' in the title for official representatives of the World Assembly? What, are newbies suddenly going to think that my WA puppet speaks for the entirety of the WA?
Is this the impression that we want to give newbies? The impression that all we do is argue with each other?
Or, you know, people just liked Auralia's repeal.
Like I said, who's going to check?
That's exactly my point! If they didn't know that you were the same person, why didn't they list both?
without that welcome telegram, newbies still find you helpful! Your main concern was that newbies would be turned away by you, but this proves the opposite! I'm telling you to stop beating yourself up and to acknowledge that you're not as despised as you think you are!
What would you do if you ended up giving bad advice someday and a newbie, not knowing any better, placed your advice over other people's advice because of your flag? You yourself said that people are more likely to listen to nations that look official, so my scenario, according to you, shouldn't be far-fetched.
In that instance, the only way for everyone to be on an equal footing again would be for everyone to create a WA puppet (a few players have already done so). That would be a nightmare scenario.
Singaporean Transhumans wrote:You didn't know about Excidium? The greatest space nomads in the NS multiverse with a healthy dose (read: over 9000 percent) of realism?
Saveyou Island wrote:"Warmest welcomes to the Assembly, ambassador. You'll soon learn to hate everyone here."
Imperium Anglorum wrote:Digital Network Defence is pretty meh
News: AI wins Dawn Fleet election for High Counselor.
by Snefaldia » Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:42 pm
by Wallenburg » Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:51 pm
by Separatist Peoples » Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:23 am
by Bears Armed Mission » Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:31 am
Separatist Peoples wrote:I have more hypothetical!!!!!
I am considering draft of a resolution to deal with the transitory nature of membership with the GA. I am looking to include a committee that will assist prospective nonmembers seeking membership (ICly, of course), into transitioning into compliance with GA resolutions (in a nonbinding nature). Essentially, it's a carrot for membership: Prove that you're making a good-faith effort to transition to compliance and membership, and get financial and logistical aid from the WA to that end.
For example, Access to Sanitation requires a potentially massive investment in infrastructure that a nonmember with no money couldn't afford. If they joined the WA, they would immediately be in noncompliance and have no funds to get into compliance. This would allow the GA, through a committee, to provide that financial and technical support so the transition is one of a state either in or actively making progress toward compliance into membership.
Having explained the idea, here is my question: Would this constitute Affecting Nonmembers?
I don't believe so, since the support is nonbinding, and would be withdrawn if there is any indication of a lack of good faith in transitioning, like not taking steps to getting rid of state-sanctioned racial segregation but trying to claim that they are going to join, and just need a big lump of cash first. As such, it's all carrot and no stick, which is where the issue of telling nonmembers what to do comes from. However, I don't want to waste time writing a complex draft if the idea is flawed at it's core.
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