UK Politics IV: Disraeli Gears

[Frank Zipper]

If the shoe fits, wear it. If it doesn't, then there is no need to be concerned if I want to 'make you out as a moron'.

What you assume about other people speaks more about you than them.

We are not going to be minimised just because we have left the EU- too many on the Left hope that this will happen.
We need to sign into international free trade agreements, negotiate new plans with the US & EU, speak with the Germans, the Americans, the Chinese- this is why we have a Trade Department. The role of this Department is to find the platform from which this country can export its business around the world.
Our economy hasn't collapsed. The City felt a hit- it is not the end of the world. We are still very much capable of negotiating, if not more so, and are very much capable of making business work. By emulating the Singapore-style free market economy, London can become (or remain) the centre-hub for international business in the North Atlantic, which is extremely possible due to the reasons and aims I have outlined.

I am not claiming that our economy is going to collapse, just that will not be as good as it would have been if we remained in the EU. We are going to lose the business that came about because of our position in the EU and the Anglosphere. Any business that we negotiate to replace the business lost because of Brexit, was potentially always there. We have not gained business opportunities because of Brexit, we have to put in the effort to make up for the short fall caused by what we have thrown away. We are particularly going to weaken out position as a financial centre.

[Lamadia III]

What you assume about other people speaks more about you than them.

As I said, if you think that I am judging you, you must be insecure about something? I don't know you, though, so I couldn't say.

I am not claiming that our economy is going to collapse, just that will not be as good as it would have been if we remained in the EU. We are going to lose the business that came about because of our position in the EU and the Anglosphere. Any business that we negotiate to replace the business lost because of Brexit, was potentially always there. We have not gained business opportunities because of Brexit, we have to put in the effort to make up for the short fall caused by what we have thrown away. We are particularly going to weaken out position as a financial centre.

I don't doubt that we have to try hard. I have stated that we have to put money into this, but it is very much attainable. I think we are on the same page as far as Brexit is concerned- we differ, perhaps, on the solution & the opportunities it poses?
We can now focus on our own deregulation. We can now focus on our own trade deals. Brexit was not/is not an inherently bad thing.

[Vassenor]

Why is it that anyone who expresses a pro-Remain viewpoint is always painted as hating the UK and wanting to see it destroyed?

Also isn't a good chunk of the industry in Singapore state-owned?

[Lamadia III]

Why is it that anyone who expresses a pro-Remain viewpoint is always painted as hating the UK and wanting to see it destroyed?

I don't think that is true at all.
I think the majority of pro-Remain supporters (including myself,) held these views not out of a particular love for a corrupted institution, but because we believed that Britain could make a change, for the better. That we have left, means that we will face some obstacles, but instead of focusing our energy on changing the EU, we can now put that into making ourselves a stronger, more independent economy outside of it.

[New Chalcedon]

Why is it that anyone who expresses a pro-Remain viewpoint is always painted as hating the UK and wanting to see it destroyed?

Because at some level, most Leave campaigners know that they don't have much of a case if you consider it calmly and logically. So they resort to appealing to emotional responses (Immigrants are both jobless idlers and coming to take your jerbs!), as well as outright lying (£350m/year extra for the NHS, anyone?) at every turn.

[Frank Zipper]

a country the US could use to access European markets.

That's not how the EU works. You trade with all the countries of the EU on certain terms or with none.

When the country where you have based your European operations leaves the EU, you move it to one that remains, so that you can continue to trade within the EU.

[Chestaan]

Your dad runs a hedge fund and your mother is a surgeon who is incredibly respected in her field. I imagine you want to be considered as successful as they are and that must put tremendous pressure on you, and from how much you harp on about how great your grades are and the importance of hard work, I think you are feeling this pressure quite strongly. When you talk about how lazy people others are, do you quietly assure yourself that you are hard-working and thus will definitely succeed in life?

I know I am hardworking enough to be able to attain better than my parents.
Unlike some individuals, I do not believe that it is the duty of anybody- the state or any other entity- to get me to this position. You should try the same attitude, it is one which makes you rich.

I don't know if I'm particularly hardworking, but I've gotten on pretty well so far. But unlike you I realise that hard work isn't the only ingredient to success, it also involves a hefty chunk of luck. Some smart and hard working people just don't get the breaks. If it was the case that hardworking people always succeeded then there would be no problem, the system would be fair. But that's just not the case. Not being super rich does not make a person lazy.

[Mad hatters in jeans]

Your dad runs a hedge fund and your mother is a surgeon who is incredibly respected in her field. I imagine you want to be considered as successful as they are and that must put tremendous pressure on you, and from how much you harp on about how great your grades are and the importance of hard work, I think you are feeling this pressure quite strongly. When you talk about how lazy people others are, do you quietly assure yourself that you are hard-working and thus will definitely succeed in life?

I know I am hardworking enough to be able to attain better than my parents.
Unlike some individuals, I do not believe that it is the duty of anybody- the state or any other entity- to get me to this position. You should try the same attitude, it is one which makes you rich.

This is a common idea among the wealthy in many countries. They believe you can achieve anything by trying hard enough.

It's basically the "free will" side of the determinism vs free will debate.

It is also heavily outnumbered and outclassed by the determinist arguments in the debate.

In short the determinists argue that everything you do is pre-determined by your current circumstances, every thought you have, everything you think is unique to you is pre-determined through your entire life. From what clothes you decide to wear to the people you talk to.

I would also add that wealth is not measured purely in a materialistic sense, there is also social and psychological elements that play a part as well.
The social wealth is particularly relevant here, if you don't have friends to help you then you're missing very important parts of Maslow's hierarchy. If you don't share the social norms and values of the people you want to work with then you may not get that job you wish to apply for.

Simply put people self recruit. They want to hire people who are like themselves, so there is a strong psychological force pushing against people who may not share some social or even physical elements with the people they want to work with.
This can be seen in the current drama around immigration.

Those who argue for free will would argue it is up to the immigrants to mesh into society and learn all the norms and values. That they should pull themselves together to work hard and find a place in society.
Those who argue for determinism argue that immigrants are doomed to be sidelined if they are not given assistance by the people who currently live there. That there are significant social and psychological barriers in place that will prevent them from even working with people here, their attempts to work with the people currently here will fail to meet success in most cases.

Causal determinism is "the idea that every event is necessitated by antecedent events and conditions together with the laws of nature". However, causal determinism is a broad enough term to consider that "one's deliberations, choices, and actions will often be necessary links in the causal chain that brings something about.
In other words, even though our deliberations, choices, and actions are themselves determined like everything else, it is still the case, according to causal determinism, that the occurrence or existence of yet other things depends upon our deliberating, choosing and acting in a certain way".
Causal determinism proposes that there is an unbroken chain of prior occurrences stretching back to the origin of the universe. The relation between events may not be specified, nor the origin of that universe. Causal determinists believe that there is nothing in the universe that is uncaused or self-caused. Historical determinism (a sort of path dependence) can also be synonymous with causal determinism. Causal determinism has also been considered more generally as the idea that everything that happens or exists is caused by antecedent conditions. In the case of nomological determinism, these conditions are considered events also, implying that the future is determined completely by preceding events—a combination of prior states of the universe and the laws of nature. Yet they can also be considered metaphysical of origin (such as in the case of theological determinism).

[Imperializt Russia]

Your dad runs a hedge fund and your mother is a surgeon who is incredibly respected in her field. I imagine you want to be considered as successful as they are and that must put tremendous pressure on you, and from how much you harp on about how great your grades are and the importance of hard work, I think you are feeling this pressure quite strongly. When you talk about how lazy people others are, do you quietly assure yourself that you are hard-working and thus will definitely succeed in life?

I know I am hardworking enough to be able to attain better than my parents.
Unlike some individuals, I do not believe that it is the duty of anybody- the state or any other entity- to get me to this position. You should try the same attitude, it is one which makes you rich.

I am a realist, Freefall, and somebody who wants to do better than their parents. That is nothing to be ashamed of.

"I want to do better than my parents" is a meaningless phrase, because better is subjective. In what aspect?
Do you want to earn more money than them? Money's a rather arbitrary and meaningless measure of success.

I believe if I make it into the industry I want to then I guess I would be doing "better" than my parents in some instance because I believe my work in that industry would be in the greater public good. My dad is a teacher.
Coincidentally, I would probably earn more than my dad in not too long but again - that's not a meaningful measure of success to me. I wouldn't consider myself "better" than my parents (or alternatively, to be "doing better" than them) for earning more.

I would be slightly wealthier (excepting their house from wealth), and that would be it.

[HMS Vanguard]

Those who argue for free will would argue it is up to the immigrants to mesh into society and learn all the norms and values. That they should pull themselves together to work hard and find a place in society.
Those who argue for determinism argue that immigrants are doomed to be sidelined if they are not given assistance by the people who currently live there. That there are significant social and psychological barriers in place that will prevent them from even working with people here, their attempts to work with the people currently here will fail to meet success in most cases.

What you've described doesn't imply that immigrants can be integrated via exerting force on the natives. What you've described implies that integration is impossible and that immigration will just create eternal inter-ethnic conflicts between self-segregating communities.

[Wolfmanne2]

UK General Election Seat Forecast (29th Aug)

CON: 420 (+89)
LAB: 140 (-92)
SNP: 51 (-5)
LD: 12 (+4)
PC: 6 (+3)
UKIP: 3 (+2)
GRN: 2 (+1)

Interesting, massive contradiction of Lord Ashcroft's poll, but otherwise very good news for everyone except Labour and the SNP.

The seats the SNP are predicted to lose are Berwickshire, Dumfries and Galloway, West Aberdeenshire, North East Fife, Edinburgh West, four of which would be lost to the Tories and one to the Liberal Democrats. Nothing to be said about Edinburgh South, though if would be symbolic of Labour decline if we actually lost it. I would assume that the UKIP gains are Thurrock and Hartlepool (Mandelson's old seat, which says something). The Greens take that seat in Bristol, though 1 after a single Parliament really makes you wonder what is the point and finally Plaid doubles seat their seat council broadening their appeal to areas like the Rhondda.

I do actually believe in a Progressive Alliance though not with Labour. If the Greens and the Lib Dems are smart, they'd do a Progressive Alliance with each other. Plaid could be included too. A Progressive Alliance could gurantee a Green victory in the Bristol seat and enable Lib Dem gains elsewhere.

12 seats would be good for the Liberal Democrats though. It would be an important step in the road to relevance. If Ashcroft was right and they went to 5, it would be a nail in the coffin for them.

[Wolfmanne2]

Our economy hasn't collapsed. The City felt a hit- it is not the end of the world.

No, the City only felt a hit from speculation. If we leave without passporting being guaranteed then it is fucked.

We are still very much capable of negotiating, if not more so, and are very much capable of making business work.

Do you know who we're up against?

By emulating the Singapore-style free market economy, London can become (or remain) the centre-hub for international business in the North Atlantic, which is extremely possible due to the reasons and aims I have outlined.

Sure, if we don't have a good deal for the financial sector then we're probably going to have to lower corporation tax and deregulate the sector (which is terrible considering last time we did that it caused a crash but what choice do we have)? But comparing it to 'Singapore' is trite. You're also missing out the fact that Singapore is immensely statist.

[Wolfmanne2]

http://www.youngfabians.org.uk/brexit_w ... _of_london

A good read on the potential future of the City.

[Imperializt Russia]

On what grounds are we going to be "better at negotiating"? We literally have no negotiators, except top-level politicians (who aren't "negotiators" in the strictest sense of the word).

[HMS Vanguard]

You're also missing out the fact that Singapore is immensely statist.

It isn't at all!

It is literally the least economically statist country in the world! http://www.heritage.org/index/country/singapore

[Wolfmanne2]

You're also missing out the fact that Singapore is immensely statist.

It isn't at all!

It is literally the least economically statist country in the world! http://www.heritage.org/index/country/singapore

That only takes into account economic freedom.

[Vassenor]

It isn't at all!

It is literally the least economically statist country in the world! http://www.heritage.org/index/country/singapore

That only take into account economic freedom.

And not things like the largest six state-owned corporations making up almost a fifth of Singapore's economy.

[Wolfmanne2]

On what grounds are we going to be "better at negotiating"? We literally have no negotiators, except top-level politicians (who aren't "negotiators" in the strictest sense of the word).

The EU has a larger, more experienced and longer standing cohort of trade negotiators. We basically have no one. Heck I should probably think about trying to get into the newly created international trade sector when I'm older, it certainly is an exciting opportunity,

[HMS Vanguard]

It isn't at all!

It is literally the least economically statist country in the world! http://www.heritage.org/index/country/singapore

That only take into account economic freedom.

Yes, in this discussion about economic policy and economic success.

Or is your position that Britain can never be Singapore in the sense that it probably won't introduce caning for spitting gum on the floor?

[Wolfmanne2]

That only take into account economic freedom.

Yes, in this discussion about economic policy and economic success.

Or is your position that Britain can never be Singapore in the sense that it probably won't introduce caning for spitting gum on the floor?

It's a silly analogy. It might make sense for London alone, but does saying 'let's be like Singapore' really make sense for West Wales or the Scottish Borders or Cornwall?

My position is also that Singapore isn't this libertarian paradise that everyone seems to make it out to be. Even in an economic sense, it is statist to an extent and more so then us in many aspects.

[Vassenor]

Yes, in this discussion about economic policy and economic success.

Or is your position that Britain can never be Singapore in the sense that it probably won't introduce caning for spitting gum on the floor?

It's a silly analogy. It might make sense for London alone, but does saying 'let's be like Singapore' really make sense for West Wales or the Scottish Borders or Cornwall?

In any case, isn't CoL kind of already there?

[Wolfmanne2]

It's a silly analogy. It might make sense for London alone, but does saying 'let's be like Singapore' really make sense for West Wales or the Scottish Borders or Cornwall?

In any case, isn't CoL kind of already there?

It's better then Singapore.

From Wikipedia:

The Singapore government also tightly controls and regulates the housing market. In addition, it is also the largest housing provider since it provides public housing to over 80 percent of Singaporeans. Large sectors of the economy are heavily regulated: healthcare, transport, housing, banking, finance, etc. For example, car ownership in Singapore is heavily taxed and the import tax on cars is very high.

Let's be like Singapore. Ze Germans would love the car tariffs.

[Vassenor]

In any case, isn't CoL kind of already there?

It's better then Singapore.

From Wikipedia:

The Singapore government also tightly controls and regulates the housing market. In addition, it is also the largest housing provider since it provides public housing to over 80 percent of Singaporeans. Large sectors of the economy are heavily regulated: healthcare, transport, housing, banking, finance, etc. For example, car ownership in Singapore is heavily taxed and the import tax on cars is very high.

Let's be like Singapore. Ze Germans would love the car tariffs.

They'll still totally bend over backwards to give us what we want because we're such a large export market for them.

[Wolfmanne2]

'Let's be like Britain Plus' would make more sense to me, considering we are pretty much one of the leading liberal market economies in the world and don't need to compare ourselves to some far-off city-state.

[Wolfmanne2]

What Lamadia and Jeremy Corbyn have in common is that they all believe in the 'politics of fantasy'. A dangerous attitude.