Is There Really a Rape Culture?

[Felrik]

How is sexual violence encouraged, it has been demonstrated on a number of occasions that the examples you have provided do not encourage sexual violence.

Rape a girl, gain the esteem of your friends.

I will have to concede, I lack the intellect and the argumentive ability to argue against this, maybe it's my fatigued, but for the moment until I am able to think up an argument against this I for now concede.

[Hirota]

everyone else was like "Yep, you're right, it was their fault they got shot." ?

Everyone? No. Many? Yes. On these very forums too.

How is sexual violence encouraged, it has been demonstrated on a number of occasions that the examples you have provided do not encourage sexual violence.

Rape a girl, gain the esteem of your friends.

Interesting how your own link shows how the laws of our western society punished this rapist. It's almost as if this is evidence there is no society-wide acceptance of physical violence against women...

This is probably evidence that there is a sub-culture, as proposed by Ostro and agreed with by Gravlen.

[Minzerland]

Sexual remarks aren't innately violent, we've discussed this;

Actually, all you said was "I don't believe you" and "It doesn't matter that I've never seen anyone being catcalled", obviously paraphrasing here but that's all you contributed. You can see here that the nature of street harassment is violent, and as I can only offer limited data from where I live, you'll have to go with the dozen instances I've witnessed, let alone those that have been recounted to me, which were of violent nature - at least where I live. As I've said before, if you want to know about what it's like where you live, I can only recommend asking the women around you.

Street harassment is also not innately violent, using their own definition:

Street Harassment: “Street harassment” describes unwanted interactions in public spaces between strangers that are motivated by a person’s actual or perceived gender, sexual orientation, or gender expression and make the harassee feel annoyed, angry, humiliated, or scared. Even though “street” is in the term, street harassment also takes place in stores and restaurants, on public transportation, in parks and athletic fields, and at beaches.

That isn't innately violent. The women in this case are to be kept safe by the authorities, btw, not to be kept from feeling unsafe, humiliated, annoyed, angry or from unwanted interactions.

Also, I wasn't talking about street harassment, I was talking about 'sexual remarks', which can be included in street harassment but by itself isn't innately violent.

nonconsensual sexual acts and rape are illegal in the West.None of these are condoned, they're discouraged and, in the case of rape and nonconsensual sexual acts, are illegal, even sexual remarks that come along the lines of 'I will fuck you...' is illegal.

A cultural attitude isn't set by statute.

Read what I said.

I didn't ask whether it was present, I asked whether it is prevalent, this thread ( and site for that matter) aren't representative of a nation, we come from multiple backgrounds be that from the West or not.

I can rewrite my entire post and change "present" with "prevalent" and it still makes sense.

A small cultural phenomenon exclusive to a subculture isn't representative of the West, prevalent implies widespread issue, which you've not demonstrated, present implies that it is is their but doesn't imply a widespread issue.

[Aapje]

Wow, you're right, suddenly feminism, rape culture, and violence against women isn't a problem anymore because men are sometimes victims too.

You've accurately given an example of the typical feminist straw man that gets used to defend bigotry. But it's not what I actually said.

I didn't say that it's not a problem when bad things happen, I said that 'rape culture' is defined in a way that pretends that the issues only affect half the population. The common definition of rape culture as something that only affects women is in itself 'rape culture.'

Would you also post "white people get shot too" in the next thread about an innocent black person being shot by the police? You wouldn't be wrong, and you'd be talking about an equally serious problem, but does it negate the topic that's actually being discussed?

Yes I would, because the lies that get told about police violence leads people not understanding the real problem. When they don't understand the actual problem, the inevitable result is bad attempts to fix the issue that don't work (like calling for more black police officers, when the facts show that most black people that get shot by cops, are shot by black cops).

When problems don't get solved or even get worse, because people decide based on bigotry, rather than scientific fact, I feel justified in pointing that out.

[Imperializt Russia]

If people were "very against the act", then why is it likely that one in five women will probably experience sexual assault or rape, or that as many as 6% of men will willingly admit to committing actions that meet the definitions for rape and sexual assault, when not told that that is what these are definitions for?
https://www.innovations.harvard.edu/sit ... 134851.pdf

Yeah... REPEAT rape i.e. one person doing multiple - there is the 'one in five' being from the same people, not a single person each for each case. Again, the term 'rape culture' is poorly worded - it isn't a 'culture', but a problem in general. Rape is defined as "Rape in the United States is defined by the Department of Justice as "Penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim." Sexual assault isn't necessarily rape, and some are overblown, like the person here was complaining about fucking catcalling. Let us not mention plenty of statistics on the matter disagree - they can't tell how much are REALLY reported, some count some acts as rape but others don't etc. Some even suggest it is declining.

That was supposed to be a critique of the statistics I posted?

[Arkolon]

Actually, all you said was "I don't believe you" and "It doesn't matter that I've never seen anyone being catcalled", obviously paraphrasing here but that's all you contributed. You can see here that the nature of street harassment is violent, and as I can only offer limited data from where I live, you'll have to go with the dozen instances I've witnessed, let alone those that have been recounted to me, which were of violent nature - at least where I live. As I've said before, if you want to know about what it's like where you live, I can only recommend asking the women around you.

Street harassment is also not innately violent, using their own definition:

Street Harassment: “Street harassment” describes unwanted interactions in public spaces between strangers that are motivated by a person’s actual or perceived gender, sexual orientation, or gender expression and make the harassee feel annoyed, angry, humiliated, or scared. Even though “street” is in the term, street harassment also takes place in stores and restaurants, on public transportation, in parks and athletic fields, and at beaches.

That isn't innately violent. The women in this case are to be kept safe by the authorities, btw, not to be kept from feeling unsafe, humiliated, annoyed, angry or from unwanted interaction.

4. Most harassed people were at least somewhat concerned that the incident would escalate.
Two-thirds of the harassed women (68%) and half of the harassed men (49%) said they were very or somewhat concerned that the incident would escalate into something worse. Nearly twice as many women (25%) as men (13%) said they were very concerned.

Read what I said.

What do you say about Jello Biafra's link about the boy who raped a girl to look cool in front of his friends, or the commentary surrounding the Steubenville high school rape case, or victim-blaming in general?

A small cultural phenomenon exclusive to a subculture isn't representative of the West, prevalent implies widespread issue, which you've not demonstrated, present implies that it is is their but doesn't imply a widespread issue.

Which subculture are you talking about? The things I listed were heavily-mediatised and frequently-occurring events that happened in America, as well as countless rape jokes and the general attitude of "boys will be boys", "he's just calling you beautiful", or "you'll have to get used to it". As I've said many times before, maybe you don't do it (I like to think I don't either), but that this attitude is widespread, that you know people who think like this - and even if you don't know them, we've all read about the sickening public reaction to things like Brock Turner or Steubenville - which is evidence enough that this attitude is widespread.

[Imperializt Russia]

If people were "very against the act", then why is it likely that one in five women will probably experience sexual assault or rape,

"Likely" and "Probably" eh. Add one more disclaimer and you might as well not be saying anything. Also, are you really citing that particular zombie statistic?

or that as many as 6% of men will willingly admit to committing actions that meet the definitions for rape and sexual assault, when not told that that is what these are definitions for?
https://www.innovations.harvard.edu/sit ... 134851.pdf

Interesting study (this is a better link as it's OCR'd), but it's worth noting one of the gentlemen behind it has been criticised for some questionable methodology in this study.

I say "likely" and "probably" because those are appropriate terms. The 2007 CSA study (of two campuses) found that over 19% of women on those campuses experienced something that meets the legal definition of sexual assault or rape. A subsequent 2015 study of two(?) different campuses found that 27% of women experienced the same.

These surveys are functionally in agreement, though the later study is much higher.

It would be reductionist to state that because of these campuses, "between 19 and 27% of all women in the US have been or will be raped or experience sexual assault".
But those numbers are what the data actually implies by extension of these surveys being representative and in agreement with each other (and others besides).

[Kronstad]

You want to know what a rape culture looks like?
Look at world war 2, at the ending, especially the Russian conquered lands.
Women were gangraped indiscriminately and violently and no one could protect them. This could happen to ANY woman (doesn't mean it actually happened to every single one of them but it was possible).

THAT's how a rape culture looks like - one where women get raped left and right by horny, sadistic brutes with guns, and no one can stop it.
One where going out of your house means rape or death and staying inside your house also means rape and death - because the guys have guns and bayonets and muscles, and there are no laws or policemen or, well, any men who weren't already captured or killed.

To say that there's such a thing in the US or Western Europe or wherever, in 2016, is lunacy at its finest.

[Imperializt Russia]

This is probably evidence that there is a sub-culture, as proposed by Ostro and agreed with by Gravlen.

While as an actual categorisation, it would probably be appropriate to suggest there is a subculture of rape in western culture - that's still not what is meant by the term rape culture.

And I'm afraid I can't see beyond the possibility that trying to rebrand it as "rape subculture" is in some way an attempt to further undermine the term's legitimacy.

[Imperializt Russia]

You want to know what a rape culture looks like?
Look at world war 2, at the ending, especially the Russian conquered lands.
Women were gangraped indiscriminately and violently and no one could protect them. This could happen to ANY woman (doesn't mean it actually happened to every single one of them but it was possible).

THAT's how a rape culture looks like - one where women get raped left and right by horny, sadistic brutes with guns, and no one can stop it.
One where going out of your house means rape or death and staying inside your house also means rape and death - because the guys have guns and bayonets and muscles, and there are no laws or policemen or, well, any men who weren't already captured or killed.

To say that there's such a thing in the US or Western Europe or wherever, in 2016, is lunacy at its finest.

"It was worse in East Germany so there's clearly no problem"

Stellar.

[Arkolon]

I didn't say that it's not a problem when bad things happen, I said that 'rape culture' is defined in a way that pretends that the issues only affect half the population. The common definition of rape culture as something that only affects women is in itself 'rape culture.'

You're right about this: I'd be the first to campaign for a change in the terminology on this one. When I say rape culture, I mean a societal attitude where violence against women is normalised. Men face their own problems, from men and women alike (and you're right it isn't healthy to make the "rape" in "rape culture" only applicable to women) - but that isn't what most feminists seem to mean when they say "rape culture". So if the topic of this thread was shone in this light, to more accurately mean "Is There Really A Societal Attitude Where Violence Against Women Is Normalised?", I'd say so, yes, and we'd end up having far fewer quarrels about whether men face a problem too.

[Imperializt Russia]

No part of "rape culture" suggests it only happens to or can only happen to women.
What does however happen is that men's experiences in it, which are very real, are marginalised and belittled by society at large.

Obviously with more victims (supposedly) being women than men, women are able to dominate the discussion. Toxic masculinity dissuades men from speaking out, and belittles them when they do, for being pussies or whatever bullshit.

[Felrik]

I didn't say that it's not a problem when bad things happen, I said that 'rape culture' is defined in a way that pretends that the issues only affect half the population. The common definition of rape culture as something that only affects women is in itself 'rape culture.'

You're right about this: I'd be the first to campaign for a change in the terminology on this one. When I say rape culture, I mean a societal attitude where violence against women is normalised. Men face their own problems, from men and women alike (and you're right it isn't healthy to make the "rape" in "rape culture" only applicable to women) - but that isn't what most feminists seem to mean when they say "rape culture". So if the topic of this thread was shone in this light, to more accurately mean "Is There Really A Societal Attitude Where Violence Against Women Is Normalised?", I'd say so, yes, and we'd end up having far fewer quarrels about whether men face a problem too.

Too make this easier on all of us could you be so kind as to make a list of attitudes that you think are common occurrences that encourages Violence against women, in dot points and then we will discuss it from there.

[Hirota]

And I'm afraid I can't see beyond the possibility that trying to rebrand it as "rape subculture" is in some way an attempt to further undermine the term's legitimacy.

It's legitimacy is already thoroughly undermined. At least describing it with the correct attributes allows it to salvage a sliver of legitimacy.

[Imperializt Russia]

You're right about this: I'd be the first to campaign for a change in the terminology on this one. When I say rape culture, I mean a societal attitude where violence against women is normalised. Men face their own problems, from men and women alike (and you're right it isn't healthy to make the "rape" in "rape culture" only applicable to women) - but that isn't what most feminists seem to mean when they say "rape culture". So if the topic of this thread was shone in this light, to more accurately mean "Is There Really A Societal Attitude Where Violence Against Women Is Normalised?", I'd say so, yes, and we'd end up having far fewer quarrels about whether men face a problem too.

Too make this easier on all of us could you be so kind as to make a list of attitudes that you think are common occurrences that encourages Violence against women, in dot points and then we will discuss it from there.

Doubt he will or could, because that's not what he said, if you'd care to re-read his post.

[Felrik]

No part of "rape culture" suggests it only happens to or can only happen to women.
What does however happen is that men's experiences in it, which are very real, are marginalised and belittled by society at large.

Obviously with more victims (supposedly) being women than men, women are able to dominate the discussion. Toxic masculinity dissuades men from speaking out, and belittles them when they do, for being pussies or whatever bullshit.

Sorry I just need to ask this question is there such a thing as toxic femininity.

[Imperializt Russia]

And I'm afraid I can't see beyond the possibility that trying to rebrand it as "rape subculture" is in some way an attempt to further undermine the term's legitimacy.

It's legitimacy is already thoroughly undermined. At least describing it with the correct attributes allows it to salvage a sliver of legitimacy.

Rape culture is not, and was never intended to be, an accurate taxonomy of "a culture".

[Imperializt Russia]

No part of "rape culture" suggests it only happens to or can only happen to women.
What does however happen is that men's experiences in it, which are very real, are marginalised and belittled by society at large.

Obviously with more victims (supposedly) being women than men, women are able to dominate the discussion. Toxic masculinity dissuades men from speaking out, and belittles them when they do, for being pussies or whatever bullshit.

Sorry I just need to ask this question is there such a thing as toxic femininity.

Yes, it's called gender roles. What could have been called "toxic femininity", that is facing abuse for seeking to leave expected feminine gender roles, has been mostly broken by feminist movements of the last century and change.
Men haven't had a similar freedom, and we're way behind.

[Felrik]

Too make this easier on all of us could you be so kind as to make a list of attitudes that you think are common occurrences that encourages Violence against women, in dot points and then we will discuss it from there.

Doubt he will or could, because that's not what he said, if you'd care to re-read his post.

But your not looking at the conversation myself, a number of other posters and himself have had on the topic, he has claimed that there are certain attitudes or otherwise aspects of culture that encourage men to be violent towards women, I am asking him to list the things so I can understand his position better and it might allow this to be easier for myself and others to understand.

[Kronstad]

=
"It was worse in East Germany so there's clearly no problem"

Stellar.

>it was worse
>does not provide any arguments or proof for a rape culture in 2016 western world
Stellar.

[Minzerland]

Street harassment is also not innately violent, using their own definition:

Street Harassment: “Street harassment” describes unwanted interactions in public spaces between strangers that are motivated by a person’s actual or perceived gender, sexual orientation, or gender expression and make the harassee feel annoyed, angry, humiliated, or scared. Even though “street” is in the term, street harassment also takes place in stores and restaurants, on public transportation, in parks and athletic fields, and at beaches.

That isn't innately violent. The women in this case are to be kept safe by the authorities, btw, not to be kept from feeling unsafe, humiliated, annoyed, angry or from unwanted interaction.

4. Most harassed people were at least somewhat concerned that the incident would escalate.
Two-thirds of the harassed women (68%) and half of the harassed men (49%) said they were very or somewhat concerned that the incident would escalate into something worse. Nearly twice as many women (25%) as men (13%) said they were very concerned.

Concerned that violence will occur =/= violence occurs

This doesn't prove any of what you've said.

Read what I said.

What do you say about Jello Biafra's link about the boy who raped a girl to look cool in front of his friends, or the commentary surrounding the Steubenville high school rape case, or victim-blaming in general?

These do not prove a widespread fucking issue; the acts weren't encouraged nor condoned by the general public.

A small cultural phenomenon exclusive to a subculture isn't representative of the West, prevalent implies widespread issue, which you've not demonstrated, present implies that it is is their but doesn't imply a widespread issue.

Which subculture are you talking about? The things I listed were heavily-mediatised and frequently-occurring events that happened in America, as well as countless rape jokes and the general attitude of "boys will be boys", "he's just calling you beautiful", or "you'll have to get used to it". As I've said many times before, maybe you don't do it (I like to think I don't either), but that this attitude is widespread, that you know people who think like this - and even if you don't know them, we've all read about the sickening public reaction to things like Brock Turner or Steubenville - which is evidence enough that this attitude is widespread.

You haven't proved jackshit with your useless repetition, maybe you haven't noticed but the majority of the general public did not express any of what you've listed; Brock Turner was let off because he was a rich ass with a stupid judge at his back. The media love to sensationalise, they report on anything that will get them views, clicks and attention. I don't give a flying fuck whether they joke about rape, there is nothing wrong with it.

[Felrik]

I will be back later, leave your responses and I'll get back to them if I have time tomorrow.

[Arkolon]

Doubt he will or could, because that's not what he said, if you'd care to re-read his post.

But your not looking at the conversation myself, a number of other posters and himself have had on the topic, he has claimed that there are certain attitudes or otherwise aspects of culture that encourage men to be violent towards women, I am asking him to list the things so I can understand his position better and it might allow this to be easier for myself and others to understand.

search.php?keywords=encourage&t=387584&sf=msgonly

Never said that, I'm afraid. If you can find something that I've written, preferably quoting it directly, I'll happily defend those statements.

Concerned that violence will occur =/= violence occurs

Threat of physical harm is considered violence, but why would you want to go down semantics (again)?

What do you say about Jello Biafra's link about the boy who raped a girl to look cool in front of his friends, or the commentary surrounding the Steubenville high school rape case, or victim-blaming in general?

These do not prove a widespread fucking issue; the acts weren't encouraged nor condoned by the general public.

Did I say they were condoned or encouraged? I said they were normalised - boys just having fun, the girl shouldn't have drunk so much, it's just a fact of life people will get raped, etc.

Which subculture are you talking about? The things I listed were heavily-mediatised and frequently-occurring events that happened in America, as well as countless rape jokes and the general attitude of "boys will be boys", "he's just calling you beautiful", or "you'll have to get used to it". As I've said many times before, maybe you don't do it (I like to think I don't either), but that this attitude is widespread, that you know people who think like this - and even if you don't know them, we've all read about the sickening public reaction to things like Brock Turner or Steubenville - which is evidence enough that this attitude is widespread.

I don't give a flying fuck whether they joke about rape, there is nothing wrong with it.

Would a rape victim say the same?

[Des-Bal]

So when the Charlie Hebdo shooting happened and some people said that they shouldn't have drawn cartoons of Muhammad, everyone else was like "Yep, you're right, it was their fault they got shot." ?

In rape we say that referencing the conduct of the victim as being part of the cause of their injury is never okay. That's not to say that no circusmtances exist where a person assigning responsibility to a victim is looked down upon but that there are no other crimes where the blanket prohibition exists. When someone's robbed in an alley people ask why the person is walking down alley's and that's fine, I know someone who had valuables stolen from their unlocked car and agreed with the police that it was "completely [her] fault."

[Imperializt Russia]

So when the Charlie Hebdo shooting happened and some people said that they shouldn't have drawn cartoons of Muhammad, everyone else was like "Yep, you're right, it was their fault they got shot." ?

In rape we say that referencing the conduct of the victim as being part of the cause of their injury is never okay. That's not to say that no circusmtances exist where a person assigning responsibility to a victim is looked down upon but that there are no other crimes where the blanket prohibition exists. When someone's robbed in an alley people ask why the person is walking down alley's and that's fine, I know someone who had valuables stolen from their unlocked car and agreed with the police that it was "completely [her] fault."

Usually because a woman isn't an unlocked car, or a string of personal possessions.
That's rather the issue.