US GENERAL ELECTION MEGA-THREAD II: Clinton vs. Trump

[Trumpostan]

Psst, Reagan did amnesty first.

Left wing lies!

Please don't mention that he also repeatedly raised taxes after it became apparent his voodoo economics didn't actually work.

From "Mr Gorbachev, tear down this wall" to "Mr Peña Nieto, pay for this wall"...

For all the things he did I would have disagreed with had I been old enough, at least Reagan tried to paint an optimistic view of America. Today we have Trump declaring the country a hellhole that only he can rescue us from.

[Relentless Oppression]

I'm starting to feel like yeah, trump was chosen by pissed off ultra conservatives as a calculated FU to people who elected Obama twice.

Probably.

I mean seriously you guys are legitimately scared of trump and a potential if unlikely trump presidency.

What, you think I'm afraid of Donald Trump? I don't fear him. I despise him.

Makes you kinda miss the days of John McCain and Mitt Romney.

Not really. They're shorter, smaller, less foul smelling tire fires, but they're still tire fires.

Clearly conservatives are finally showing we are willing to take things to an extreme, so maybe you should remember the trump scare the next time a milk toast republican who doesn't believe in climate change wants to ban abortion and does speak in PC terms will actually get your support. Yeah, basically I am saying republicans are threatening you with crazy to get you to vote for them when they run "reasonable" qualified candidates.

See my commentary on the platform. Fuck the GOP.

[Laurasia]

But really, though, what do you expect?

Have you seen the Republican platform? They call pornography a public health crisis and a menace. They call for allowing churches to engage in transparently political activity without fear of losing tax exemption. They're still fighting the same sex marriage fight after it's already a lost cause with the general public, and they're still trying to prevent LGBT people from adopting children "because God". It calls protecting transgender peoples' rights a power grab. It expresses support for laws that effectively allow non-union workers to free ride off of union workers' dues. It gives a nod to elimination of net neutrality, calling the policy "tyranny". It calls for Trump's dumbass border wall. It calls for abolition of the IRS. It pretty much calls for abolition of the Dept. of Education. Their response to the student debt crisis is to stop funding tertiary education entirely. They're still backing mandatory minimum sentencing, even now. They outright state that foreign aid is to be given first and foremost for the sake of satisfying US interests, not for the sake of alleviating humanitarian crises.

I'll tell you what: if the Republicans ditch all that crap, basically transform their platform into Bernie Sanders' wish list, put forward only candidates who will push for that platform and speak to its message from here on in, draft and vote for legislation for the same end and enact it as executives, support the placement of judges whose previous readings of the constitution are supportive of that legislation and executive action, and just generally transform into a center-left party, I'll vote Republican in 2020. Otherwise, no thanks. Keep them for yourself. I don't want them.

I agree with you on some of the things listed here. I for one believe that the Republicans have not done enough to address the plague of racial injustice and of bias in our criminal justice system. Moreover, many of the economic policies which they propose would transfer yet more wealth into the hands of the wealthy, thereby creating greater income inequality, and will keep impoverished neighborhoods in that condition. They will weaken our country's international position, leaving us more exposed to the intrusions of countries such as China. Abolition of the IRS and Department of Education is an overreach, though I personally believe that reforms need to be enacted within both agencies. As regards to social positions...I leave that aside. And the border wall too, is an extreme idea. But I do believe that country needs domestic jobs and domestic industry; we need to vigorously root out and destroy ISIS, and any other terrorist organizations which threaten us; and we need to crack down on illegal immigration. Those children of illegal immigrants who are citizens, those who have legitimate reasons to escape from war or poverty, and those who are old or infirm should be given a resident status; all others, including documented criminals and those without any legitimate reason for being in our country, should be deported.

[Llamalandia]

I'm starting to feel like yeah, trump was chosen by pissed off ultra conservatives as a calculated FU to people who elected Obama twice.

Probably.

I mean seriously you guys are legitimately scared of trump and a potential if unlikely trump presidency.

What, you think I'm afraid of Donald Trump? I don't fear him. I despise him.

Makes you kinda miss the days of John McCain and Mitt Romney.

Not really. They're shorter, smaller, less foul smelling tire fires, but they're still tire fires.

Clearly conservatives are finally showing we are willing to take things to an extreme, so maybe you should remember the trump scare the next time a milk toast republican who doesn't believe in climate change wants to ban abortion and does speak in PC terms will actually get your support. Yeah, basically I am saying republicans are threatening you with crazy to get you to vote for them when they run "reasonable" qualified candidates.

See my commentary on the platform. Fuck the GOP.

Oh How mature and reasonable A position. Yeah, I can see why dems are the "adults in the room".

[Relentless Oppression]

I agree with you on some of the things listed here. I for one believe that the Republicans have not done enough to address the plague of racial injustice and of bias in our criminal justice system. Moreover, many of the economic policies which they propose would transfer yet more wealth into the hands of the wealthy, thereby creating greater income inequality, and will keep impoverished neighborhoods in that condition. They will weaken our country's international position, leaving us more exposed to the intrusions of countries such as China. Abolition of the IRS and Department of Education is an overreach, though I personally believe that reforms need to be enacted within both agencies. As regards to social positions...I leave that aside. And the border wall too, is an extreme idea. But I do believe that country needs domestic jobs and domestic industry; we need to vigorously root out and destroy ISIS, and any other terrorist organizations which threaten us; and we need to crack down on illegal immigration. Those children of illegal immigrants who are citizens, those who have legitimate reasons to escape from war or poverty, and those who are old or infirm should be given a resident status; all others, including documented criminals and those without any legitimate reason for being in our country, should be deported.

So out of everything you're only kinda sorta on their side when it comes to immigration policy, and only kinda sorta on their side when it comes to the issue of the Dept. of Education. Otherwise you agree that they're out of their minds, save for social policy since you haven't commented on it.

It seems you agree more than you disagree unless there's something more to those social policy positions. That's fine. And it's fine if the items you've listed disagreement on are enough to bring you into their arms. I'm not here to tell people what to do. Me? They couldn't pay me to vote for them.

[Trumpostan]

Probably.



What, you think I'm afraid of Donald Trump? I don't fear him. I despise him.



Not really. They're shorter, smaller, less foul smelling tire fires, but they're still tire fires.



See my commentary on the platform. Fuck the GOP.

Oh How mature and reasonable A position. Yeah, I can see why dems are the "adults in the room".

Yes we are thank you very much. The GOP platform is enough proof of that. With a POTUS candidate that thinks shafting smaller businesses on their bills is just A-OK and a VPOTUS candidate that sees the Disney cartoon Mulan as a liberal conspiracy against christian conservatives (and wants to jail women for having a miscarriage), it is quite clear who are the adults in the room.

[Relentless Oppression]

Oh How mature and reasonable A position. Yeah, I can see why dems are the "adults in the room".

Did you even read your party's platform?

[Laurasia]

I agree with you on some of the things listed here. I for one believe that the Republicans have not done enough to address the plague of racial injustice and of bias in our criminal justice system. Moreover, many of the economic policies which they propose would transfer yet more wealth into the hands of the wealthy, thereby creating greater income inequality, and will keep impoverished neighborhoods in that condition. They will weaken our country's international position, leaving us more exposed to the intrusions of countries such as China. Abolition of the IRS and Department of Education is an overreach, though I personally believe that reforms need to be enacted within both agencies. As regards to social positions...I leave that aside. And the border wall too, is an extreme idea. But I do believe that country needs domestic jobs and domestic industry; we need to vigorously root out and destroy ISIS, and any other terrorist organizations which threaten us; and we need to crack down on illegal immigration. Those children of illegal immigrants who are citizens, those who have legitimate reasons to escape from war or poverty, and those who are old or infirm should be given a resident status; all others, including documented criminals and those without any legitimate reason for being in our country, should be deported.

So out of everything you're only kinda sorta on their side when it comes to immigration policy, and only kinda sorta on their side when it comes to the issue of the Dept. of Education. Otherwise you agree that they're out of their minds, save for social policy since you haven't commented on it.

It seems you agree more than you disagree unless there's something more to those social policy positions. That's fine. And it's fine if the items you've listed disagreement on are enough to bring you into their arms. I'm not here to tell people what to do. Me? They couldn't pay me to vote for them.

I understand that as well. But why would you be willing to support Hillary Clinton, of all people? She will be little better than Trump and the Republicans.

[Neutraligon]

That seems like just as big of an assumption honestly.

Not really. Utah is quite literally the reddest State in the Union. The notion that it will vote for a Democratic candidate statewide is absurd.

Trump is incredibly unpopular here, there is a lot more support for third party candidates. That might be enough to take the state from Trump.

[Llamalandia]

Oh How mature and reasonable A position. Yeah, I can see why dems are the "adults in the room".

Did you even read your party's platform?

Well I'm a libertarian. But no I haven't actually looked at the official gop platform post convention.

[The Romulan Republic]

So out of everything you're only kinda sorta on their side when it comes to immigration policy, and only kinda sorta on their side when it comes to the issue of the Dept. of Education. Otherwise you agree that they're out of their minds, save for social policy since you haven't commented on it.

It seems you agree more than you disagree unless there's something more to those social policy positions. That's fine. And it's fine if the items you've listed disagreement on are enough to bring you into their arms. I'm not here to tell people what to do. Me? They couldn't pay me to vote for them.

I understand that as well. But why would you be willing to support Hillary Clinton, of all people? She will be little better than Trump and the Republicans.

Has she incited and condoned violence from her supporters?

Has she advocated banning an entire religion from entering America, which would be in blatant violation of the Constitution?

Has she asked a despot from another country to illegally intervene in the election on her behalf?

Among other things.

When people say she's just like Trump, or similar, I can only reach three possible explanations:

1. They are unaware of the above.
2. The are deliberately ignoring the above for the sake of ideology.
3. They don't see the above as major problems.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Did you even read your party's platform?

Well I'm a libertarian. But no I haven't actually looked at the official gop platform post convention.

Some would say our freedom loving platform is crazy too

[Neutraligon]

I haven't abandoned conservatism overall, except on climate change and perhaps other environmental issues. Yes, I'm actually going to start listening to Al Gore. Ideally, I'd prefer private sector approaches to achieving carbon negative emissions over government solutions such as cap and trade. But if the former isn't happening, I will choose the lesser of two evils.

Don't listen to Gore, he is an alarmist who misrepresents the info. Listen to the scientists who study the topic.

[Socialist Nordia]

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/donald-trum ... -of-rally/
Trump is anti-baby. This should disqualify him. Too bad it probably won't.

This just goes to show that not even babies are off limits when it comes to who Trump attacks.

[Llamalandia]

Oh How mature and reasonable A position. Yeah, I can see why dems are the "adults in the room".

Yes we are thank you very much. The GOP platform is enough proof of that. With a POTUS candidate that thinks shafting smaller businesses on their bills is just A-OK and a VPOTUS candidate that sees the Disney cartoon Mulan as a liberal conspiracy against christian conservatives (and wants to jail women for having a miscarriage), it is quite clear who are the adults in the room.

Meh...he might be on to something Milan. But seriously that was 17 years ago in an oped . And to be fair we do have women in combat now. Also he does actually have a good point on Bambi as I have heard anti hunting people reference Bambi's mom when talking to little kids.

[Washington Resistance Army]

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/donald-trump-kicks-crying-baby-out-of-rally/
Trump is anti-baby. This should disqualify him. Too bad it probably won't.

This just goes to show that not even babies are off limits when it comes to who Trump attacks.

To be fair to Trump babies are annoying as hell.

[Gauthier]

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/donald-trump-kicks-crying-baby-out-of-rally/
Trump is anti-baby. This should disqualify him. Too bad it probably won't.

This just goes to show that not even babies are off limits when it comes to who Trump attacks.

Trump is just asserting his dominance as the alpha crying baby.

[Geilinor]

I haven't abandoned conservatism overall, except on climate change and perhaps other environmental issues. Yes, I'm actually going to start listening to Al Gore. Ideally, I'd prefer private sector approaches to achieving carbon negative emissions over government solutions such as cap and trade. But if the former isn't happening, I will choose the lesser of two evils.

Don't listen to Gore, he is an alarmist who misrepresents the info. Listen to the scientists who study the topic.

Actually, according to climate scientists, he represented the facts accurately. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/27/AR2006062700780.html

[Llamalandia]

I understand that as well. But why would you be willing to support Hillary Clinton, of all people? She will be little better than Trump and the Republicans.

Has she incited and condoned violence from her supporters?

Has she advocated banning an entire religion from entering America, which would be in blatant violation of the Constitution?

Has she asked a despot from another country to illegally intervene in the election on her behalf?

Among other things.

When people say she's just like Trump, or similar, I can only reach three possible explanations:

1. They are unaware of the above.
2. The are deliberately ignoring the above for the sake of ideology.
3. They don't see the above as major problems.

Well he was only ever really talking about not letting foreign muslims into the country, which is less clear cut in terms of constitutionality.
And I don't think trump has really incited violence. Condoned it in some circumstances maybe.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

But really, though, what do you expect?

Have you seen the Republican platform? They call pornography a public health crisis and a menace. They call for allowing churches to engage in transparently political activity without fear of losing tax exemption. They're still fighting the same sex marriage fight after it's already a lost cause with the general public, and they're still trying to prevent LGBT people from adopting children "because God". It calls protecting transgender peoples' rights a power grab. It expresses support for laws that effectively allow non-union workers to free ride off of union workers' dues. It gives a nod to elimination of net neutrality, calling the policy "tyranny". It calls for Trump's dumbass border wall. It calls for abolition of the IRS. It pretty much calls for abolition of the Dept. of Education. Their response to the student debt crisis is to stop funding tertiary education entirely. They're still backing mandatory minimum sentencing, even now. They outright state that foreign aid is to be given first and foremost for the sake of satisfying US interests, not for the sake of alleviating humanitarian crises.

I'll tell you what: if the Republicans ditch all that crap, basically transform their platform into Bernie Sanders' wish list, put forward only candidates who will push for that platform and speak to its message from here on in, draft and vote for legislation for the same end and enact it as executives, support the placement of judges whose previous readings of the constitution are supportive of that legislation and executive action, and just generally transform into a center-left party, I'll vote Republican in 2020. Otherwise, no thanks. Keep them for yourself. I don't want them.

I agree with you on some of the things listed here. I for one believe that the Republicans have not done enough to address the plague of racial injustice and of bias in our criminal justice system. Moreover, many of the economic policies which they propose would transfer yet more wealth into the hands of the wealthy, thereby creating greater income inequality, and will keep impoverished neighborhoods in that condition. They will weaken our country's international position, leaving us more exposed to the intrusions of countries such as China. Abolition of the IRS and Department of Education is an overreach, though I personally believe that reforms need to be enacted within both agencies. As regards to social positions...I leave that aside. And the border wall too, is an extreme idea. But I do believe that country needs domestic jobs and domestic industry; we need to vigorously root out and destroy ISIS, and any other terrorist organizations which threaten us; and we need to crack down on illegal immigration. Those children of illegal immigrants who are citizens, those who have legitimate reasons to escape from war or poverty, and those who are old or infirm should be given a resident status; all others, including documented criminals and those without any legitimate reason for being in our country, should be deported.

You can't give someone who is a citizen a green card.

They're already citizens.

[Llamalandia]

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/donald-trump-kicks-crying-baby-out-of-rally/
Trump is anti-baby. This should disqualify him. Too bad it probably won't.

This just goes to show that not even babies are off limits when it comes to who Trump attacks.

To be fair to Trump babies are annoying as hell.

Well yeah. I mean who thinks it's appropriate to keep a crying baby at political rally in first place? At least not at one where the candidate is going to being giving a speech. It's disruptive. "Back in my day they'd have carried him out on a stretcher"

[Soldati Senza Confini]

We've had Republican administrations since then, why is it only the responsibility of Democrats to enforce the border?

Because the business wing of the Republican party holds the purse strings and they really don't want immigration cut back at all. The Republicans will make noise about "securing the boarder" but they won't actually do anything effective to prevent illegal immigration.

Then that's not really the fault of Democrats if your party can't even get the balls to do what they say they will, is it?

Hell, Obama has deported far more people than Bush Jr. did. That tells you how little of a problem immigration even was for Republicans.

I'll be honest and say what no Republican or Republican-leaner has had the balls to say: we simply find it convenient to scapegoat illegal immigrants for political purposes and drive fears home. We actually don't give a shit about it, so let's stop pretending like we do.

[Alien Space Bats]

Im saying their [i.e., the Muslim-American - ASB] community poses a serious security threat, and thus should be monitored more, it is that simple, it is not advanced discrimination and I believe reasonable.

Would you say the same about gun owners?

If they are as patriotic as they want us to believe then I see no reason why they wouldnt cooperate.

Again, would you expect the same of gun owners?

[Neutraligon]

We're never going to vote for them after this. That's insane brinkmanship and playing with the future of 315 million people - no, all 7 billion + on this planet for power.

Yeah, but if you actually let the Republican Party die, I'm pretty sure you'd be risking a civil war. I mean basically disenfranchising (even if it is their own fault) 30% of the country isn't a good idea, especially given those are people who ultimately believe in second amendment solutions.

Letting the Republican party die does not disenfranchise them, they still have the right to vote. Parties have died in the past, and new ones always take their place. Also, it is rather stupid to threaten people if they do not get what they want.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

To be fair to Trump babies are annoying as hell.

Well yeah. I mean who thinks it's appropriate to keep a crying baby at political rally in first place? At least not at one where the candidate is going to being giving a speech. It's disruptive. "Back in my day they'd have carried him out on a stretcher"

Do you really find it funny that what Trump is essentially saying is "before we had PC we used to kick each other's asses and send people on stretchers to the hospital!".

PC makes itself look better in comparison.