Should families who reject LGBT children by guilty of abuse?

[Luminesa]

I just put that in there because you clearly decided to ignore the statistics in the OP that show that forced repression is universally harmful.



So you have a repression fetish? Lovely.

There is nothing wrong with repression fetishes.

Freud might argue otherwise, but Freud is dead, and nobody listenz to them anymore.

*Freud sits in corner in Sadness Box.*

[USS Monitor]

"Parents and families must be educated and taught that, regardless of their opinions on their child being LGB+ and/or Transgender, regardless of any 'sincerely-held beliefs' on the topic, they do not have authority or control over this aspect of their child's life, and that it is not appropriate for them to reject, try to change, or treat differently, their children for this reason."
- Glorious OP

That doesn't really answer the question. If I were to try to maintain a child's celibacy or to prevent them from undergoing sexual reassignment until adulthood (and disown them in the event that they were to do the latter after the age of 18), would I be considered 'abusive'?

Depends on what methods you used to do that. If you're locking the kid in their room for months on end to make sure they don't go out to a gay bar or a doctor (who might put them on HRT or something, God forbid!) -- that's abusive. If you just tell the kid you don't want them to do those things, that's just expressing an opinion.

[Calptenia]

There is a sliding scale of societal acceptability as to what a parent should or should not tolerate. At one end are the typical childish antics, e.g. tantrums. At the other end are the blatantly illegal, e.g murder. There is no obvious line dividing this into two separate groups, and I feel like talking about what a parent "should' or "shouldn't" do would devolve into subjective meaninglessness.

In the end, I see it as whether the cost of enforcing this point of view onto (probably) conservative people is worth the emotional damage that would be prevented.
I think it is definitely worth it; we ought to have a more accepting society.

From a different angle, the notion of parenting is for the parents to shelter, and teach their children; the reason we have the concept of a child is to mark for how long the parents must do this. If a parent rejects a child for any reason (s)he is clearly not doing this.

[Aelex]

And how does the impact that parental rejection has on the child not fall within the legal definitions of abuse, given its emotional and psychological impact?

Because it's not. Because, even without going full slippery-slope on this issue, stating that merely not agreeing with one's kid choice is akin to abuse would open the door to a fuck-shit of possible law suits, especially in the anglo-saxon world that is quite fond of creating jurisprudence.
Should parents who refused to let their kids to pursue a career as musician, nurse or childcare worker be considered as abusers? Etc, etc.
Now, I'm not saying we shouldn't punish abusive parents who kick their kids out of their house or hit them because they turned out to be gay, quite the contrary I would happily support that, however I don't think that disagreeing with the homosexuality of one's kid should be abuse, per se.

[Noraika]

I think you've gotten me and another guy mixed up, 'cause I haven't stated my opinion on whether being LGBT is a choice or not.

I misinterpreted your previous post. My apologies for that. With that said, I stand by what I said as being accurate independent of if it was misdirected.

[Rutthenia]

How can you represent a whole community of LGBT minors with your own personal experience?

I just put that in there because you clearly decided to ignore the statistics in the OP that show that forced repression is universally harmful..

And how do you know that I "clearly decided to ignore" those statistics?

All I'm saying is, if the gay/lesbian/trans/etc. minor in question certainly knows that their parents/guardians have a negative attitude towards homosexuality/LGBT, it would certainly be a better choice to keep it a secret from them for another few years than to risk losing a home and a family you're completely dependent on. Many parents tend to have an attitude where they think that their teenager or child doesn't fully understand everything that's happening to/around them, so coming out at an adult age could definitely be a better choice with better results than coming out at 14 or 15.

[USS Monitor]

And how does the impact that parental rejection has on the child not fall within the legal definitions of abuse, given its emotional and psychological impact?


A parent refusing to allow their child to receive treatment which is medically necessary (which is what transitioning is), is entirely abusive, becuase it compromises the health of the child for the 'preferences' of the parents. The medical standards of care quite clearly state, in the WPATH Standards of Care v7, that even "withholding puberty suppression and subsequent feminizing or masculinizing hormone therapy is not a neutral option for adolescents." and that such a decision is not the parent's right to do.

In that case, I would rather just let the state take them off my hands if they were to transition against my will.

That's pretty messed up.

[United Marxist Nations]

In that case, I would rather just let the state take them off my hands if they were to transition against my will.

That's pretty messed up.

I just don't see how we could be reconciled in that situation.

[Renewed Imperial Germany]

In that case, I would rather just let the state take them off my hands if they were to transition against my will.

That's pretty messed up.

The "Religion of Love" strikes again.

[USS Monitor]

How? I don't technically have legal obligation to them at that point, so, if they do something that they can't take back, and which violates my religious beliefs, why shouldn't I disown them?

Because, once again, that's child abuse, or neglect more specifically.

They're not a child if they're over 18, so no, it is not.

[Noraika]

And how does the impact that parental rejection has on the child not fall within the legal definitions of abuse, given its emotional and psychological impact?

Because it's not. Because, even without going full slippery-slope on this issue, stating that merely not agreeing with one's kid choice is akin to abuse would open the door to a fuck-shit of possible law suits, especially in the anglo-saxon world that is quite fond of creating jurisprudence.
Should parents who refused to let their kids to pursue a career as musician, nurse or childcare worker be considered as abusers? Etc, etc.
Now, I'm not saying we shouldn't punish abusive parents who kick their kids out of their house or hit them because they turned out to be gay, quite the contrary I would happily support that, however I don't think that disagreeing with the homosexuality of one's kid should be abuse, per se.

Firstly, not a choice, as I've said before. There is no evidence from any reputable source to support that it is a choice, there is plenty to suggest there is no experience of choice (even presented on basic fact sheets), and attempts to use CBT or other means to adjust or correct LGB+ or Transgender people, for decades on decades, has been not only met with no success, but also is considered medically unethical.

Rejection of a child's sexuality or gender identity is different from just saying "no" to a child about anything. It has a very real, and very detrimental, measurable impact on the child's mental health. This pretty much makes it abuse by most legal definitions does it not?

[Benuty]

That's pretty messed up.

The "Religion of Love" strikes again.

The assumptions of generalization strikes again!

[Aelex]

And why exactly should LGBT people be forced to repress themselves when cisgender/heterosexual people don't?

Who said you should be? If you want, it's your right to fuck who you desire but don't be surprised if people disapprove of your lifestyle.

[Rutthenia]

That's pretty messed up.

The "Religion of Love" strikes again.

Please don't bring in a whole religion to this discussion. Christians worldwide have different viewpoints on homosexuality so just generalizing over a billion people there is stupid.

[Romakivila]

I'd argue pumping your child full of unnatural estrogen or testosterone could be child abuse, and is by no means medically necessary. I highly doubt doing that would truly effect the suicide rate, and many would come to regret their decision. The child is also not old enough to give meaningful consent until the arbitrary age of 18.

Actually transitioning has a huge effect on the positive life outcomes and mental health of transgender people. In addition, parental rejection has a significant impact, and I can say with great certainty, after reading the Guidlines and Standards of Care for transgender patients, that the medical data disagrees with you. Withholding treatment is once again "not a neutral option".

Now, if you have some evidence from a reputable source that is current, and which collaborates your claims, that might make it a little bit different, and add a little bit of credibility, but ultimately you still have all but a small, and increasingly so, fringe which would agree with you on both transitioning being abuse, and withholding transitioning not being abusive.

However parents can't control how they feel just as much as a transgender person thinks they're something else, and they shouldn't be sent to child protective services for not liking their childs sexuality or gender. Nore should they be punished for not letting their child undergo a process that fucks with nature. If not wanting to fuck around with nature is fringe then sure, I'm fringe.

[Giovenith]

Like others said, it depends on what level of rejection they're doing. If they start emotionally torturing or beating the kid, yeah, that's abuse. I think that throwing them out of the house should also be considered child endangerment. But I think you're going to have a hard time arguing to press charges against something, like, the parent telling their kid they think its just a phase or praying for Christ to "fix" them.

[Luminesa]

That's pretty messed up.

The "Religion of Love" strikes again.

It's not fair to say that his opinion is automatically representative of Orthodoxy (as UMN is Orthodox). Thus, it's not fair to say, "The Religion of Love strikes again," when it's more, "United Marxist Nations has stated an opinion that I do or do not agree with."

[Renewed Imperial Germany]

The "Religion of Love" strikes again.

Please don't bring in a whole religion to this discussion. Christians worldwide have different viewpoints on homosexuality so just generalizing over a billion people there is stupid.

Its rather asinine for UMN to make the statements hes making then turn around and claim to be a loving individual, is it not? Its more directed at him then anyone else.

[Noraika]

That's pretty messed up.

I just don't see how we could be reconciled in that situation.

By allowing them to transition, and loving them regardless, and being happy that they're getting necessary treatment that helps them be themselves, increase their positive life outcomes and mental health, and not let your religion get in the way of you sharing in your child's happiness instead of arguing from them to strictly conform, and actually practicing unconditional love like a parent should, and like a certain example you follow.

[Valystria]

No. It's the right of the kid than to chose a life-style as long as they aren't harming anyone in the process but it's also the right of the parents than to not support this life-style even if, depending on it's intensity, said lack of support can be down-right dickish.

Now, as the brother of a lesbian, I myself adopt a stance of "benevolently not giving a shit" because I love her and thus try to don't act any differently as I would if she was straight; but, I honestly don't think I would be as accepting if it was for my own children.

Parents have no right to harm their children, and no-one 'chooses' to be LGBTQIA.

Oh really? It's not plausible that at least some individuals may actually enjoy being bi or trans and intentionally sought it out?

You're signalling that you view LGBTness as something tragic, only ever being an oppression identity borne out of suffering, and that we should all accept it because it wasn't their choice.

No, that's quite miserable. LGBT ought to be respected and accepted including as a choice. If someone doesn't want to be trans, they can stop anytime. Everyone decides who they are.

Every time you use as a defense "but it's not a choice", you're heavily implying it would be bad if it were a choice.

[Aelex]

Firstly, not a choice, as I've said before. There is no evidence from any reputable source to support that it is a choice, there is plenty to suggest there is no experience of choice (even presented on basic fact sheets), and attempts to use CBT or other means to adjust or correct LGB+ or Transgender people, for decades on decades, has been not only met with no success, but also is considered medically unethical.

Rejection of a child's sexuality or gender identity is different from just saying "no" to a child about anything. It has a very real, and very detrimental, measurable impact on the child's mental health. This pretty much makes it abuse by most legal definitions does it not?

I'm talking about the lifestyle, not the attraction itself.

And meh. As I said, if people are really abusive and either kick out or hurt their child just because of their sexual orientation, that is indeed abuse.
Quallifying the rest as being too would look way too much like forcing your own political beliefs on other people.

[Socialist Nordia]

Yeah, probably. It seems like statistics are on your side.

I honestly don't buy into the idea that parents can do whatever they want to their children. This is clearly harmful, and it shouldn't really be allowed. Of course there are varying degrees of rejection, and it's important not to treat all degrees as the same.

[Renewed Imperial Germany]

Actually transitioning has a huge effect on the positive life outcomes and mental health of transgender people. In addition, parental rejection has a significant impact, and I can say with great certainty, after reading the Guidlines and Standards of Care for transgender patients, that the medical data disagrees with you. Withholding treatment is once again "not a neutral option".

Now, if you have some evidence from a reputable source that is current, and which collaborates your claims, that might make it a little bit different, and add a little bit of credibility, but ultimately you still have all but a small, and increasingly so, fringe which would agree with you on both transitioning being abuse, and withholding transitioning not being abusive.

However parents can't control how they feel just as much as a transgender person thinks they're something else, and they shouldn't be sent to child protective services for not liking their childs sexuality or gender. Nore should they be punished for not letting their child undergo a process that fucks with nature. If not wanting to fuck around with nature is fringe then sure, I'm fringe.

I mean, Estrogen and Testosterone are pretty damn natural, considering, bar some odd genetic abnormality, your body is currently producing them.

[United Marxist Nations]

I just don't see how we could be reconciled in that situation.

By allowing them to transition, and loving them regardless, and being happy that they're getting necessary treatment that helps them be themselves, increase their positive life outcomes and mental health, and not let your religion get in the way of you sharing in your child's happiness instead of arguing from them to strictly conform, and actually practicing unconditional love like a parent should, and like a certain example you follow.

I simply cannot do that, because transitioning is a grave sin that cannot be taken back because of its permanence.

[Luminesa]

By allowing them to transition, and loving them regardless, and being happy that they're getting necessary treatment that helps them be themselves, increase their positive life outcomes and mental health, and not let your religion get in the way of you sharing in your child's happiness instead of arguing from them to strictly conform, and actually practicing unconditional love like a parent should, and like a certain example you follow.

I simply cannot do that, because transitioning is a grave sin that cannot be taken back because of its permanence.

Actually, I think it kind of CAN be...but it would take a while.