UK Politics Thread III: Thready McThreadface (+ Jo Cox)

[Questers]

Leadsom, meanwhile, is still a second-rater, and I still have no idea what anybody sees in her.

She's not Theresa May. I mean...

That is a strong pull frankly.

[Divitaen]

Look I understand if people argue Liz Kendall would have continued Labour's lurch to the right, but Owen Smith lambasted Cameron for cutting welfare in his austery measures during PMQs. Same for Angela Eagle who had a blistering critique of George Osborne's cuts to tax collection agencies resulting in a rise in tax evasion amongst the British wealthy. Eagle and Smith won't exactly sell the soul of the Labour Party. And they are far less controversial to the British public compared to someone like Corbyn who holds some views that I may agree with but are also viewed as extremist to the average British voter.

Owen Smith and Angela Eagle did not run in the leadership election. If they chose to run in a leadership election and got an idea for what direction they wanted to take the party in against corbyn, that would be fine. No cuts isn't good enough any more though, we're in a recession, we just don't know it yet, we need investment in the economy, which means spending increases, and, because they haven't stood in an election, I wouldn't know if they support those measures.

The point is Eagle and Smith aren't exactly centre-right, they oppose recession and clearly support more funding for welfare benefits, the scrapping of the bedroom tax and more measures to tackle tax evasion of the wealthy. That should be left-wing enough to keep the soul of the Labour Party, while choosing two less controversial, more electable candidates.

And yes they didn't run previously but they are part of the leadership challenge to Corbyn happening right now, and my argument is Corbyn should step down and make way for a fresh leadership election.

[Divitaen]

How do you think moderates feel in Labour with Corbyn?

At least Corbyn's rise is easily explained.

But its certainly analogous, right? Corbyn won for being a purist ideologue, not because he was particularly experienced or had very solid credentials, he was an attractive ideologue far left of the British centre who had misogynistic supporters.

[Questers]

he was an attractive ideologue far left of the British centre who had misogynistic supporters.

LOL

[Divitaen]

he was an attractive ideologue far left of the British centre who had misogynistic supporters.

LOL

Liz Kendall and Yvette Cooper both endured horrific online abuse and vitriol.

[MERIZoC]

LOL

Liz Kendall and Yvette Cooper both endured horrific online abuse and vitriol.

What a good thing twitter trolls aren't representative of the general public, eh?

[Anywhere Else But Here]

At least Corbyn's rise is easily explained.

But its certainly analogous, right? Corbyn won for being a purist ideologue, not because he was particularly experienced or had very solid credentials, he was an attractive ideologue far left of the British centre who had misogynistic supporters.

Wait, wait, what? Is there any evidence whatsoever that Corbyn's supporters are more misogynist than anyone else's?

[Souseiseki]

LOL

Liz Kendall and Yvette Cooper both endured horrific online abuse and vitriol.

and? so does pretty much every major woman. there's no real point to noting that some supporters may have called them cows without any extra details.

[Questers]

LOL

Liz Kendall and Yvette Cooper both endured horrific online abuse and vitriol.

because they were centre rightists standing against a leftist, not because they were women lol

[Geilinor]

Liz Kendall and Yvette Cooper both endured horrific online abuse and vitriol.

because they were centre rightists standing against a leftist, not because they were women lol

That doesn't mean there can't be civility in politics. And Yvette Cooper is by no means center-right. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yvette_Cooper#Member_of_Parliament

Cooper backed reintroducing the 50p income tax rate and would aim to create more high skilled manufacturing jobs. She would introduce a living wage for social care workers and attempt to build 300,000 houses every year. Cooper does not agree that Labour spent too much while in government.[22]

[Wolfmanne2]

because they were centre rightists standing against a leftist, not because they were women lol

That doesn't mean there can't be civility in politics. And Yvette Cooper is by no means center-right. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yvette_Cooper#Member_of_Parliament

Cooper backed reintroducing the 50p income tax rate and would aim to create more high skilled manufacturing jobs. She would introduce a living wage for social care workers and attempt to build 300,000 houses every year. Cooper does not agree that Labour spent too much while in government.[22]

Yeah, the 'Labour didn't spend too much in government' is pretty fucking left-wing to me. Brown was planning to reduce the deficit over the next four years from 2007 and would have done so had the recession not struck. Even Labour knew it was spending too much. It wasn't even good Keynesian economics; we shouldn't had been spending so much during a boom. Mind you, that does not trash the fact that New Labour brought prosperity and progress to the country, but it's a perfectly valid criticism that Kendall and Burnham were correct in acknowledging. We can still defend the record of New Labour whilst acknowledging we spent too much.

Differences between us can be summarised here. Fun game: guess whether I'm revisionist or third way.

Woah there, I'm not exactly a Marxist. Somewhere between Marxism & Revisionism.

Actually I unsubbed from r/socialism a few weeks ago. It was just horrific. It's basically a litany of "everything is pointless because no standing candidate anywhere is actually a marxist" and "everything you know about the world is wrong and needs changing" so

Not being a Marxist doesn't necessarily mean you're not a fundamentalist. 'Revisionist socialism' can be regarded as encompassing the spectrum of soft leftism to the 'Old Labour Right'. The New Labour Right arguably has some heritage from Croslandite and Gaitskellian revisionism (especially in regards to the faith in managerialism), though being the nuclear fishfrog hybrid of socialism we also have some heritage from Thatcherism. I think you'd be insulted if I said you were a Kinnockite, which is probably as left-wing as you can get within the revisionist tradition. I think you've mentioned Tony Benn as being one of your heroes and he would certainly find revisionists like Kinnock and Healey abhorrent.

I seem to edging closer to flirting with revisionist socialism myself. Bill Shorten's success in Australia shows that it is viable; in the context of the UK, it might even be necessary to regain lost UKIP voters.

Liz Kendall and Yvette Cooper both endured horrific online abuse and vitriol.

because they were centre rightists standing against a leftist, not because they were women lol

That's fair enough, but does it justify the misogynistic abuse and bullying they received? Why did they face that rather than civil criticism of their platform and why is it justifiable?

Liz Kendall and Yvette Cooper both endured horrific online abuse and vitriol.

What a good thing twitter trolls aren't representative of the general public, eh?

But they are representative of Momentum.

[Wolfmanne2]

Also, plans for Leadsomreich revealed: https://twitter.com/ben_hart/status/751117842079215616

To summarise: an end to positive discrimination, triggering of Article 50 in September, the repeal of the Human Rights Act, more grammar schools, a 'war on political correctness' and a focus on winning back UKIP voters.

You know how you all think New Labour were basically just Tories? They really weren't. They were progressive and forward-looking. This shit literally undoes the work the New Labour government did, so I'm pretty fucking miffed. The sort of society Leadsom is proposing would have been the one we would be living in if Hague won in 2001 or Howard in 2005 or even John fucking Major in 1997.

[Geilinor]

David Cameron defends same-sex marriage against Leadsom's statements.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/07/08/david-cameron-defends-equal-marriage-against-criticism-from-andrea-leadsom/

[Olerand]

Talk about peacemaking and dealmaking but you need an actual plan and Corbyn had no leverage in his meetings with them. Just negotiating with groups like Hamas and Hezbollah without any conditions will not work.

I'm certain that Corbyn's never been to actually "negotiate" with either group. Israel haven't asked him to, and HM government certainly won't have asked him to.
He's presumably been over to try and get a relation going, he has no power to "negotiate".

And that's for the better. I tolerate Corbyn because he has -so far- the democratic mandate of the membership and his economic ideas, while not fleshed out, are in the right direction. But the rest of his policies. Good Lord.
Let's not make him out to be what he is clearly not, a diplomat, a Statesman, etc. There can be no negotiation with Hamas or Hezbollah, and Corbyn holding on to that position is just stupid.
The PS is already collapsing in France, let's not see our dear sister party Labour meet us in the graveyard now, non?

Also, plans for Leadsomreich revealed: https://twitter.com/ben_hart/status/751117842079215616

To summarise: an end to positive discrimination, triggering of Article 50 in September, the repeal of the Human Rights Act, more grammar schools, a 'war on political correctness' and a focus on winning back UKIP voters.

You know how you all think New Labour were basically just Tories? They really weren't. They were progressive and forward-looking. This shit literally undoes the work the New Labour government did, so I'm pretty fucking miffed. The sort of society Leadsom is proposing would have been the one we would be living in if Hague won in 2001 or Howard in 2005 or even John fucking Major in 1997.

I'm excited!

EDIT: What is positive discrimination? Is that like American affirmative action?

[Souseiseki]

Also, plans for Leadsomreich revealed: https://twitter.com/ben_hart/status/751117842079215616

To summarise: an end to positive discrimination, triggering of Article 50 in September, the repeal of the Human Rights Act, more grammar schools, a 'war on political correctness' and a focus on winning back UKIP voters.

You know how you all think New Labour were basically just Tories? They really weren't. They were progressive and forward-looking. This shit literally undoes the work the New Labour government did, so I'm pretty fucking miffed. The sort of society Leadsom is proposing would have been the one we would be living in if Hague won in 2001 or Howard in 2005 or even John fucking Major in 1997.

a cameron tory is still a tory. ;-)

the further new labour survives the worse it gets

[Spiffier]

David Cameron defends same-sex marriage against Leadsom's statements.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/07/08/david-cameron-defends-equal-marriage-against-criticism-from-andrea-leadsom/

Leadsom's objections to same-sex marriage are fairly innocuous, they're basically just a conservative shibboleth. I'm surprised she's taking so much flak. She didn't even vote against gay marriage, she just abstained.

[Geilinor]

David Cameron defends same-sex marriage against Leadsom's statements.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/07/08/david-cameron-defends-equal-marriage-against-criticism-from-andrea-leadsom/

Leadsom's objections to same-sex marriage are fairly innocuous, they're basically just a conservative shibboleth. I'm surprised she's taking so much flak. She didn't even vote against gay marriage, she just abstained.

She's talking flak for claiming that it caused harm to Christians.

[Spiffier]

Leadsom's objections to same-sex marriage are fairly innocuous, they're basically just a conservative shibboleth. I'm surprised she's taking so much flak. She didn't even vote against gay marriage, she just abstained.

She's talking flak for claiming that it caused harm to Christians.

It changes the teleos of marriage in a way that applies to all marriages.

[Olerand]

She's talking flak for claiming that it caused harm to Christians.

It changes the teleos of marriage in a way that applies to all marriages.

The telos of marriage!
What is that, in your opinion, exactly?

Anyway, it does not affect British heterosexual couples marrying in a church in any way, shape, or form.

[Spiffier]

It changes the teleos of marriage in a way that applies to all marriages.

The telos of marriage!
What is that, in your opinion, exactly?

Anyway, it does not affect British heterosexual couples marrying in a church in any way, shape, or form.

The Christian conception of marriage is a microcosm of humanity, two halves united.

[Olerand]

The telos of marriage!
What is that, in your opinion, exactly?

Anyway, it does not affect British heterosexual couples marrying in a church in any way, shape, or form.

The Christian conception of marriage is a microcosm of humanity, two halves united.

Interesting. And what of the others? Jewish marriage in Israel, Muslim marriage in the Muslim world, Buddhist marriage in Thailand, or the mandatory secular marriage in France? What is their telos?

[Spiffier]

The Christian conception of marriage is a microcosm of humanity, two halves united.

Interesting. And what of the others? Jewish marriage in Israel, Muslim marriage in the Muslim world, Buddhist marriage in Thailand, or the mandatory secular marriage in France? What is their telos?

I don't know, we're talking about the UK, whose very democracy comes from fanatical Protestantism.

[Olerand]

Interesting. And what of the others? Jewish marriage in Israel, Muslim marriage in the Muslim world, Buddhist marriage in Thailand, or the mandatory secular marriage in France? What is their telos?

I don't know, we're talking about the UK, whose very democracy comes from fanatical Protestantism.

I associate the beginning of British "democracy" with the Magna Carta, which arose out of noble privilege and contestation of the authority of the crown. Are you referencing the events of the 16th century in England?

[Souseiseki]

Interesting. And what of the others? Jewish marriage in Israel, Muslim marriage in the Muslim world, Buddhist marriage in Thailand, or the mandatory secular marriage in France? What is their telos?

I don't know, we're talking about the UK, whose very democracy comes from fanatical Protestantism.

yeah tbh we've been trying to get rid of a lot of the old foundations of our democracy because they were bad

i hope you're not catholic

[Spiffier]

I don't know, we're talking about the UK, whose very democracy comes from fanatical Protestantism.

I associate the beginning of British "democracy" with the Magna Carta, which arose out of noble privilege and contestation of the authority of the crown. Are you referencing the events of the 16th century in England?

No, I'm referencing the events of 17th Century.