Legally Armed Black Motorist Shot Dead By Police

[Minzerland]

Are forensic teams separate from the police institution? I'm curious.

No. They're a division of the police department.

That's a pretty flawed system, I mean, the police could easily tamper with the forensic evidence.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

No. They're a division of the police department.

That's a pretty flawed system, I mean, the police could easily tamper with the forensic evidence.

That's why they try to be scrupulous regarding chain of evidence and the like. Also, they do try to retain some independence from the rest of the department.

[Pope Joan]

Well, if "you're a law-abiding citizen, I see no reason why you should be worried about cops", right? Riiight.

The police man is NOT your friend.

Not now, not ever.

[Quokkastan]

No. They're a division of the police department.

That's a pretty flawed system, I mean, the police could easily tamper with the forensic evidence.

Or the reverse.

[Unified Governments]

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/07/us/philando-castile-alton-sterling-reaction/index.html

3 cops killed at the Dallas protest.

[Zeinbrad]

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/07/us/philando-castile-alton-sterling-reaction/index.html

3 cops killed at the Dallas protest.

Already has a thread.

[Seangoli]

More than 560 people have been killed by police this year so far alone. People of color disproportionately killed at higher rates. Virtually no prosecutions of police officers. Sure it's not reflective of what the state things? Especially when the American state was founded on racism?

*sigh*

I already worked on said numbers. Of those 560 people, 136 were black. Of those, 130 were gunshot victims (The remain 6 were accidental deaths due to various medical conditions and reactions to Tazers and Pepper spray). One of those 130 was an officer who was caught in cross fire. Of the remaining 130, 104 were committing an act that was immediately dangerous to the officers or bystanders (Actively pointing a gun at an officer or other individual, firing a gun at an officer or other individual, attacking an officer or bystander with a non-firearm weapon, driving in a manner that puts the lives of those around them at immediate risk, etc.). Of the remaining 25 (I did my math wrong previously), around half or so were armed at the time and the officer stated were reaching for said weapon when told not to. Of the remaining half, about half again were reaching for what the officer *thought* was a weapon. The remaining 6 or so are cases without enough detail or are questionable to the extreme.

So, of the 136 who have died, approximately 25 of them are even remotely questionable uses of excessive force, and many of those could still be justifiable depending on the specific circumstances.

To be blunt, the vast majority of cases involving police homicide against black people are *not* prosecutable by virtue of the fact that lethal force was justified. I haven't run the number on white, but I'm mostly certain we'll see a similar trend.

Alright, I'm done parsing the data on whites killed by officers, and I have to admit to some interesting findings.

1. Of the 279 white people killed, four were killed in a domestic dispute *with* the officer, six were killed by due to officers hitting them with their vehicles unintentionally, and one was accidentally shot while an officer was shooting at another person, and one was shot due to him firing a gun at the police who had entered the wrong home, and one was shot during a fight between the individual and an off-duty police officer.
2. Of the remaining 266, 17 were killed unintentionally due to health issues arising from their arrest, due to being tazed, or dying from injuries associated with their arrest.
3. Of the remaing 247 cases, 117 cases involved individuals either firing upon officers, bystanders, or pointing guns at officers and bystanders.
4. This is where it gets weird. Of the remaining 130 cases, 87 were killed while directly threatening officers or bystanders with a non firearm weapon, including Vehicles, Knifes, Baseballs Bats, and tools. In fact, the vast majority of these were weilding Knives at the time they were shot (Approximately 60 or so).
5. The remaining 43 cases are cases where the use of deadly force was not justified necessarily by the information present; either the information was inclomplete, or it did not involve the person directly threatening an officer with a weapon or gun (Same criteria was used with Black victims as with White victims; if the report did not state that the individual directly pointed a gun or weapon at an officer or bystander, it is moved to this category).

So, what can we learn from this? Well, out of the 130 non-accidental cases of police homicides on black people, a full 80% were the result of the individual actively threatening a person with lethal force, thus meaning that lethal force is pretty much unquestioned as reasonable. THese are cases where the individual without question posed an immediate deadly threat, and in such cases lethal force is justified. Further, 63% of those individuals were either pointing a gun at other individuals or firing a gun at other individuals.

On the white side of the spectrum, 82% were the result of the individual actively threatening a person with lethal force, thus meaning that lethal force is a reasonable response. What's interesting in this number, however, is that only 47% of white individuals killed by officers were directly threatening the use of or currently using a firearm. White people weilding non-fire arm weapons are killed at a fire greater number *and* rate than Black people are.

Take of the data what you will, but it certainly paints a vastly different picture than what some would say.

Now, this has shit-all to do with the current topic at hand, but rather as a counter point to individuals who quite apparently didn't bother looking through the data before making claims on the subject

Note on methodology: I included in the tallies instances where an individual gave the impression of having a firearm or were weilding a replica firearm (Such as an airsoft rifle). Keep in mind that there were individuals on both portions of the data, and removing these from the data set would not change the outcomes.

Source:
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-i ... -database#

Edit: Further, the *only* officer who is currently being charged with a crime is one who missed a shot at an individual, killing a bystander. AFAIK, no officer on either side has been charged when lethal force is used.

[Krazakistan]

It just confirms that the right to bear arms does not apply to black men. Rather, it becomes a capital crime for them to even legally carry.

Oh please fuck off with that race baiting bullshit. Black men that have CCW licenses have been pulled over in the past and were not killed. This incident is evidently the cause of wrongful procedure on the side of the officer, which I assume is due to lack of experience with the situation.

[Gauthier]

It just confirms that the right to bear arms does not apply to black men. Rather, it becomes a capital crime for them to even legally carry.

Oh please fuck off with that race baiting bullshit. Black men that have CCW licenses have been pulled over in the past and were not killed. This incident is evidently the cause of wrongful procedure on the side of the officer, which I assume is due to lack of experience with the situation.

Here's What Happens When a Black Man Open Carries a Gun

EXCLUSIVE: Black Man Harassed for Legally Open Carrying – Proceeds to School the Cops on His Rights

[Krazakistan]

Oh please fuck off with that race baiting bullshit. Black men that have CCW licenses have been pulled over in the past and were not killed. This incident is evidently the cause of wrongful procedure on the side of the officer, which I assume is due to lack of experience with the situation.

Here's What Happens When a Black Man Open Carries a Gun

EXCLUSIVE: Black Man Harassed for Legally Open Carrying – Proceeds to School the Cops on His Rights

That's two incidents, which, I might add, is not enough to indicate a trend or something that is the case in each state/city which allows open carry, in which neither were killed and at the end of the day weren't deprived of their right to bear arms. Racial profiling is an issue but a black man carrying a gun =/= a death sentence.

[Seangoli]

Here's What Happens When a Black Man Open Carries a Gun

EXCLUSIVE: Black Man Harassed for Legally Open Carrying – Proceeds to School the Cops on His Rights

That's two incidents, which, I might add, is not enough to indicate a trend or something that is the case in each state/city which allows open carry, in which neither were killed and at the end of the day weren't deprived of their right to bear arms. Racial profiling is an issue but a black man carrying a gun =/= a death sentence.

I'm also going to point out I can find numerous videos of white people in confrontation with Police on the exact same subject. To be frank, people (And many cops) simply don't like the idea of open carry for various reasons. Guns in general make people anxious.

I vastly prefer Open Carry over Conceal & Carry, because at least then I know who to avoid like the god-damn plague.

[Imperializt Russia]

What would be the solution though? More training, less provision of deadly weapons to Law Enforcement Officers?

My proposal of adopting the British method doesn't seem to go over well for some reason, despite that it works.
Yes we could actually make police earn the privilege to carry a firearm on duty or even better create armed response units in every major city specifically for that purpose.

Someone who's this freaking skittish shouldn't have another person's life in their hands.

Like with all problems relating to guns in the US, there are too many guns for this to be a viable solution.

[Seangoli]

My proposal of adopting the British method doesn't seem to go over well for some reason, despite that it works.
Yes we could actually make police earn the privilege to carry a firearm on duty or even better create armed response units in every major city specifically for that purpose.

Someone who's this freaking skittish shouldn't have another person's life in their hands.

Like with all problems relating to guns in the US, there are too many guns for this to be a viable solution.

Pretty much exactly this. There are far too many crazy people with far too many guns for it to work in the US.

[Imperializt Russia]

Like with all problems relating to guns in the US, there are too many guns for this to be a viable solution.

Pretty much exactly this. There are far too many crazy people with far too many guns for it to work in the US.

One doesn't have to be crazy for a situation with a gun to unexpectedly escalate.

[Socialist Tera]

Black guy get shot by cops. Bear shits in forest. Typical thing happens again in America, problem won't be fixed anytime soon sadly.

[Seangoli]

Pretty much exactly this. There are far too many crazy people with far too many guns for it to work in the US.

One doesn't have to be crazy for a situation with a gun to unexpectedly escalate.

Also quite true. The real reason why we need our Police officers armed is that guns are fairly readily available, and easily obtainable, to most anyone who wants them. Frankly, the US populace is rather well armed at this point, to a far greater degree than other countries that do not arm their officers with fire arms. And when you have fire arms as readily available, then people who commit violent crime will have fairly easy access to fire arms. And those are the times you would *really* wish that there was an officer with fire arm present who didn't have to wait some number of minutes for an armed assault team to arrive.

Now, this isn't a great system mind you, for no other reason than Cops aren't particularly much better shots than regular people (And the good ol' Second Amendment toters aren't nearly as good of a shot under stress as they would state they are); but it's somewhat better than the alternative of "You're screwed"; further, there is certain number of officers who should not have a weapon on their person at all, let alone the authority to determine when lethal force is necessary (For being hot-heads or itchy on the trigger finger). A good most from what I have seen, however, can remain calm enough to behave rationally.

We won't be getting rid of guns any time soon, and even *with* stricter gun control, the type of weapons people fear the most will still be easily obtainable by the less than savory sorts due to the infrastructure of the gun industry in the US.

[Imperializt Russia]

I daresay members of the public are probably fired on more often than police officers in the UK are.

[Big Jim P]

Are you ever going to post something with any actual sustenance other than repeating the same thing over and over again?

What else is there to say when the same thing keeps happening every fucking week?

It isn't happening every week. This is the first time a legal gun carrier was criminally shot by the police that I can recall.

Maybe you are including the legitimate (and sometimes criminal) shooting of thugs by the police in your count? Wait, that still isn't every week.

[Risottia]

The girlfriend said on the video that the officer “asked him for license and registration. He told him that it was in his wallet, but he had a pistol on him because he’s licensed to carry. The officer said don’t move. As he was putting his hands back up, the officer shot him in the arm four or five times.”

The video shows a uniformed police officer holding a pistol on the couple from outside the car. The officer can be heard to say, “I told him not to reach for it. I told him to get his hand out.”

So he was killed for obeying the police, aka "getting his licence" and "getting his hand out". Because at the same time he was ordered not to move, and if he had obeyed that command he could have been killed by the police for "disobeying" the other commands.

Hence, killed by the police if you move, killed by the police if you don't. Let's not show much surprise the next time someone will think that the move that grants one the best chance of survival when near the police will be just shooting them or running them over.

[Risottia]

Pretty much exactly this. There are far too many crazy people with far too many guns for it to work in the US.

Well, one could start by tackling the issued represented by the crazies with guns who also happen to be police agents.

[Big Jim P]

The SAF are calling for an independent investigation. No news yet as to the NRAs response.

[Imperializt Russia]

The SAF are calling for an independent investigation. No news yet as to the NRAs response.

I'm kind of amazed that independent investigations aren't standard in some manner. Independent oversight is kind of a basic principle of "investigation", especially for misconduct, especially where that misconduct costs lives. In any other context, it would surely be a conflict of interest.

I get that the US is large enough and diverse enough that a single body like the UK's IPCC may be impractical (unless, say, a federal body granted powers under the FBI, but at that point, one logically requires an independent body to monitor the FBI too which would need to be external), but still, something.

[Big Jim P]

The SAF are calling for an independent investigation. No news yet as to the NRAs response.

I'm kind of amazed that independent investigations aren't standard in some manner. Independent oversight is kind of a basic principle of "investigation", especially for misconduct, especially where that misconduct costs lives. In any other context, it would surely be a conflict of interest.

I get that the US is large enough and diverse enough that a single body like the UK's IPCC may be impractical (unless, say, a federal body granted powers under the FBI, but at that point, one logically requires an independent body to monitor the FBI too which would need to be external), but still, something.

Agreed.

Oh, and Gun Owners of America hasn't issued any response yet either.

[Costa Fierro]

Anyone else think the cop in the video after he fired the shots sounds like he's on the verge of some sort of mental breakdown? Like we are some serious fear in that man's voice.

[Ethel mermania]

Anyone else think the cop in the video after he fired the shots sounds like he's on the verge of some sort of mental breakdown? Like we are some serious fear in that man's voice.

That is what ms Reynolds had said. She said the cop was confused and crying.