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Is Objectification Really a Serious Issue?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Is Objectification Really a Serious Issue?

No. We just need to make sure laws exist that effectively respond to crimes against persons.
39
17%
No. It's just a philosophical theory people blow out of proportion.
77
33%
Not sure.
9
4%
I would be more interested if people effectively addressed objectification of men as well.
24
10%
Yes it's a serious issue and everyone should be worried about how to deal with it.
58
25%
It mostly harmfully effects women and we should all be concerned about that.
24
10%
 
Total votes : 231

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New Edom
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Is Objectification Really a Serious Issue?

Postby New Edom » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:52 am

So Jessica Valenti came out with a new book called Sex Object. One chapter she offered up for review by the public is about her being harassed on the subway. I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt and accept hat this happened almost every day as she describes there just for the sake of argument. Jessica Valenti believes that objectification is one of the pillars of rape culture--the idea that women are treated as objects under the patriarchy. She is, bear in mind the co-author of Yes Means Yes which is one of the works which inspired the affirmative consent movement.

Valenti's ideas didn't come out of nowhere. Feminist philosophers like Martha Nussbaum and legal theorists like Catherine MackInnon have also talked about this. They are not merely targeting some objectionable crimes--they propose that our society general objectifies women and that women have it worse than men do by far. The Good Men Project and other pro-feminist websites like NOMAS insist that men should be very concerned about how objectification encourages harm towards women.

However is this really the problem people think it is? What exactly is the problem? What IS objectification anyway? Do nearly all men in Western society feel entitled to women's bodies as people from Jessica Valenti to Buzzfeed Articles claiming that men actually conspire in general to take advantage of women out of enttlement.

Men watch women in a way we’ve long since normalized. It’s normal for men to watch you when you enter a bar, to watch what you’re drinking, what you’re doing, in an attempt to get closer to you. It’s normal for them to offer you a drink, and when you say no, to press a little further with are you sure, come on, have one drink with me. (When a guy asks to buy you a drink, suggest he buy you a snack instead and see how that goes over.) Men watch women at the gym, at work, on the subway: In any space occupied by men and women, the latter are being watched. We’re so used to it that we hardly notice.



I think people use this word without really thinking about it and mean a number of things. But you cannot base common practices on assumptions alone--you have to be clear about it, especially if you're going to try to base laws and ecuation on it.

What I would propose is that this is not the problem people think it is. I think that problems that do exist are: human trafficking, rape, sexual assault, sexual harassment, bullying--but these are actions of people behaving in a criminal manner and I don't think they are encouraged by our society in general. I think that we just need to learn how to better deal with the actions of the criminals and anticipate them. I don't think society's values in general are out of step with this. We just need to be more aware of the crimes and social misconduct and deal with them more effectively. So...thoughts?
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Khadgar
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Postby Khadgar » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:55 am

Is it a serious issue to have a significant portion of the population watch your every move all the time? Yeah it would offend me any rate. I'm sure you've seen the videos recorded of women walking down the street and being catcalled and harassed.

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Grande Republic of Arcadia
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Postby Grande Republic of Arcadia » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:57 am

no its not an issue, she just needs to block out what people say, and such and it will not be a problem, but if it turns to violence then it is a problem
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Freedom in Unition
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Postby Freedom in Unition » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:58 am

Khadgar wrote:Is it a serious issue to have a significant portion of the population watch your every move all the time? Yeah it would offend me any rate. I'm sure you've seen the videos recorded of women walking down the street and being catcalled and harassed.

How is that something you're sure everyone has seen? I haven't seen that at all. People don't just go online in their spare time and look up "woman getting catcalled". That makes no sense.
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Ariasteppe
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Postby Ariasteppe » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:59 am

Considering objectification directly leads to the strength of the influence of beauty standards for women, and further considering that, not coincidentally, 90% of people with anorexia-typed eating disorders are female, yeah, I'd think it's a pretty serious issue from any decent perspective.
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Khadgar
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Postby Khadgar » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:59 am

Freedom in Unition wrote:
Khadgar wrote:Is it a serious issue to have a significant portion of the population watch your every move all the time? Yeah it would offend me any rate. I'm sure you've seen the videos recorded of women walking down the street and being catcalled and harassed.

How is that something you're sure everyone has seen? I haven't seen that at all. People don't just go online in their spare time and look up "woman getting catcalled". That makes no sense.


Apparently you also don't watch the news.

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Internationalist Bastard
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:04 pm

Have you tried ignoring comments you don't like?
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Freedom in Unition
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Postby Freedom in Unition » Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:05 pm

Khadgar wrote:
Freedom in Unition wrote:How is that something you're sure everyone has seen? I haven't seen that at all. People don't just go online in their spare time and look up "woman getting catcalled". That makes no sense.


Apparently you also don't watch the news.

I don't watch extremely biased news that find it important to report on videos showing women being catcalled. The people that watch these videos are an extreme minority. You don't crack down on racists because there's an extreme minority of people in the country who are truly racist.
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Dinake
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Postby Dinake » Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:12 pm

Yes, objectification is a serious issue. It is one of the principle causes of rape culture- laudation of male promiscuity being the other one.
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Internationalist Bastard
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:14 pm

Dinake wrote:Yes, objectification is a serious issue. It is one of the principle causes of rape culture- laudation of male promiscuity being the other one.

Ignore them, what is so hard about that.
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Grand Britannia
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Postby Grand Britannia » Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:14 pm

Ignoring people seems to work, tbh.
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The balkens
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Postby The balkens » Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:14 pm

Internationalist Bastard wrote:Have you tried ignoring comments you don't like?


IMPOSSIBLE.

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Khadgar
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Postby Khadgar » Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:14 pm

Internationalist Bastard wrote:Have you tried ignoring comments you don't like?


I've tried but they keep making puppets.

Freedom in Unition wrote:
Khadgar wrote:
Apparently you also don't watch the news.

I don't watch extremely biased news that find it important to report on videos showing women being catcalled. The people that watch these videos are an extreme minority. You don't crack down on racists because there's an extreme minority of people in the country who are truly racist.


If you don't know anything about the subject at hand, do everyone a favor, including yourself, and shut up about it eh?
Last edited by Khadgar on Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:18 pm

Let me see how I address this objectively. Objectification is something that I think most people do (sure, some of you will say ''Well, I've never!'', like the Monty Python skit and whatever, ok, you never have. This is my ''I believe you'' face). Sexually, mostly. I don't see a huge issue with it, with the caveat that it has to be something one agrees to.

Explanation: during sex, if you're into certain lifestyles like BDSM, and you have accorded with your partner that you want to be objectified during sex, treated like a sex toy, or just the object your partner needs to get sexual gratification, then I have no issues with it. My sole problem with objectification is when it prevents people from treating others, be them men or women, as the people they are and opt to see a person as a means to an end.
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New Edom
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Postby New Edom » Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:19 pm

Ariasteppe wrote:Considering objectification directly leads to the strength of the influence of beauty standards for women, and further considering that, not coincidentally, 90% of people with anorexia-typed eating disorders are female, yeah, I'd think it's a pretty serious issue from any decent perspective.


On the other hand that article also says:
Research suggests that about one percent (1%) of female adolescents have anorexia. That means that about one out of every one hundred young women between ten and twenty are starving themselves, sometimes to death. There do not seem to be reliable figures for younger children and older adults, but such cases, while they do occur, are not common.
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Arachaea
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Postby Arachaea » Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:21 pm

Yes.
One of the most serious issues in the world.
But due to the MRA's, who use leg position and toilet seats to claim men are being oppressed, progress in minimalizing it is being disrupted.
Men are objectified slightly. Women are objectified a lot.
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The New Sea Territory
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Postby The New Sea Territory » Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:22 pm

Not Another Anti-Feminist Thread!™

New Edom wrote:I think that problems that do exist are: human trafficking, rape, sexual assault, sexual harassment, bullying--but these are actions of people behaving in a criminal manner and I don't think they are encouraged by our society in general.


Criminal behavior doesn't just poof into existence, so this doesn't really disprove the argument that objectification leads to this.

What would say is the root(s) of these crimes, if not objectification?
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Postby The New Sea Territory » Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:23 pm

Grand Britannia wrote:Ignoring people seems to work, tbh.


It's not always that simple.
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Postby Galloism » Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:23 pm

The New Sea Territory wrote:Not Another Anti-Feminist Thread!™

New Edom wrote:I think that problems that do exist are: human trafficking, rape, sexual assault, sexual harassment, bullying--but these are actions of people behaving in a criminal manner and I don't think they are encouraged by our society in general.


Criminal behavior doesn't just poof into existence, so this doesn't really disprove the argument that objectification leads to this.

What would say is the root(s) of these crimes, if not objectification?

Regarding the first: profit

Regarding the rest: people are kinda shitty.
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Postby Neutraligon » Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:26 pm

Galloism wrote:
The New Sea Territory wrote:Not Another Anti-Feminist Thread!™



Criminal behavior doesn't just poof into existence, so this doesn't really disprove the argument that objectification leads to this.

What would say is the root(s) of these crimes, if not objectification?

Regarding the first: profit

Regarding the rest: people are kinda shitty.


Yes, but it helps to dehumanize people when you commit crimes. Objectification is in the end another way of dehumanizing others, whether male (like in prison rape) or female.
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:26 pm

The New Sea Territory wrote:
Grand Britannia wrote:Ignoring people seems to work, tbh.


It's not always that simple.

I do it all time what do you mean?
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New Edom
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Postby New Edom » Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:26 pm

Arachaea wrote:Yes.
One of the most serious issues in the world.
But due to the MRA's, who use leg position and toilet seats to claim men are being oppressed, progress in minimalizing it is being disrupted.
Men are objectified slightly. Women are objectified a lot.


How are women objectified? Explain please. Use examples and citations if you can.
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Postby Galloism » Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:27 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Galloism wrote:Regarding the first: profit

Regarding the rest: people are kinda shitty.


Yes, but it helps to dehumanize people when you commit crimes. Objectification is in the end another way of dehumanizing others, whether male (like in prison rape) or female.

True, but let me ask you a question. If crime is proximately caused or driven by objectification, what does it say that the vast majority of crime victims are men?
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Postby Luminesa » Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:28 pm

Internationalist Bastard wrote:
Dinake wrote:Yes, objectification is a serious issue. It is one of the principle causes of rape culture- laudation of male promiscuity being the other one.

Ignore them, what is so hard about that.


I mean, sure, I can ignore it if I want to, but it's not just me. It's lots of other girls. And guys as well. Guys get objectified, too. We do it to each other, and it's wrong. And it needs to be rooted-out in our culture.
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Postby Grand Britannia » Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:28 pm

The New Sea Territory wrote:
Grand Britannia wrote:Ignoring people seems to work, tbh.


It's not always that simple.


Ignoring people is not complex arithmetic so yes, it is.
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