Help us, Europe! - ISIS defectors.

[Vulkata II]

Need more guns

[Kubra]

Not possible, so long as young men exist amidst boring villages and tenaments they'll wanna punch something, shoot something, and cleverer ones will end up going to war. There are ways to minimize it tho, and there's the question of whether it's worth it to minimize it, whether western manpower is a boon or a burden.

Well, they say if you scratch a cynic, you'll find a disappointed idealist.

But my point is that no one wants to solve the problem. Everyone wants to solve a symptom of the problem and believe that's all that needs to be done.

But the problem is that young males are young males, and I say this as a young male. This is just sort of what we do. The best you can hope for is that next time a bunch of us decide to go fight a war in some far flung territory it's actually for a good cause.
We can do that. Sometimes we do. We mostly don't.
But sometimes we do.

[Ganos Lao]

The Western nations still send billions in money and military aid to people funding that nonsense, so I don't think the world's had enough just yet.

Unfortunately so.

You cannot end the nonsense unless you plug the source. Sadly, there's not a plug out there big enough to plug both the source and the subsequent source of the aftermath of the initial plugging.

Plus, the West's too busy trying to move Putin out of the way so they can pull the plug that's keeping Syria from utterly collapsing.

You reap what you sow. The West and the Middle East continues to sow the seeds of discord and chaos, and so they shall reap both.

[Ganos Lao]

Well, they say if you scratch a cynic, you'll find a disappointed idealist.

But my point is that no one wants to solve the problem. Everyone wants to solve a symptom of the problem and believe that's all that needs to be done.

But the problem is that young males are young males, and I say this as a young male. This is just sort of what we do. The best you can hope for is that next time a bunch of us decide to go fight a war in some far flung territory it's actually for a good cause.

That's not what I'm talking about, though. I'm talking about how radical Islam is one of the causes they get to choose to fight for. I'm talking about removing said cause once and for all.

[The Two Jerseys]

Here's an idea: the defectors sing like canaries and give us some really good intel, and in return we just might consider knocking a couple years off their prison sentences.

[Liriena]

I would say that they should be brought back to their homelands... in custody and under investigation, and then dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

[Kubra]

But the problem is that young males are young males, and I say this as a young male. This is just sort of what we do. The best you can hope for is that next time a bunch of us decide to go fight a war in some far flung territory it's actually for a good cause.

That's not what I'm talking about, though. I'm talking about how radical Islam is one of the causes they get to choose to fight for. I'm talking about removing said cause once and for all.

So the problem isn't young boys going off to fight, it's when they do it for islam?
That'll sort itself out in a decade, maybe a couple more. It always does. We'll all have something else to kill and kill and die for by then.

[LaVeyan Inferno]

Unfortunately so.

You cannot end the nonsense unless you plug the source. Sadly, there's not a plug out there big enough to plug both the source and the subsequent source of the aftermath of the initial plugging.

Plus, the West's too busy trying to move Putin out of the way so they can pull the plug that's keeping Syria from utterly collapsing.

You reap what you sow.

Funding Syrian rebels was one of the worst decisions that was made by the U.S. in regards to the Middle Eastern crisis. Many of these groups are just as radical as ISIS, and would glady establish a religious state in Syria.

[Liriena]

Errrrr...hate to break it to you, but most of them want to go back to their country of origin. That's sort of the whole premise of the thread.

Right, let soldiers from some genocidal army go back to their homes.

Did it for German and Italian prisoners of war. Why not repentant ISIS militants?

Might as well give them a pat on the back and give them rewards or some shit.

No, but some due process would be nice. Also, last I checked, "lifelong exile" was no longer a legal form of punishment.

[Mefpan]

They should be charged for their crimes; membership in a terrorist organization is pretty clear for all of them.

And don't give me that crap about how this might make it difficult for them to integrate into society. They joined up with a group that has the stated goal to destroy the society they're trying to get back into. Shit like that is not supposed to be easy. It can't be easy.

Besides, anyone who seriously is genuinely sick of the fighting, especially of fighting for Daesh, will probably accept standing in court as a viable alternative. If a prison sentence deters them from surrendering the fight, then I will not bother even momentarily believing in the honesty of their surrender.

[The balkens]

Right, let soldiers from some genocidal army go back to their homes.

Did it for German and Italian prisoners of war. Why not repentant ISIS militants?

The former were members of standing armies, ISIS is just a bunch of Jihadis that only flocked to Syria for mayhem, rape and murder.

They lost their humanity in my eyes.

[Southerly Gentleman]

Right, let soldiers from some genocidal army go back to their homes.

Did it for German and Italian prisoners of war. Why not repentant ISIS militants?

Don't confuse political ideology for religion; the latter can have a much stronger hold on the mind.

Also, many of the Italian and German POWs had been conscripted. Their allegiance to fascism is questionable.

[Bogdanov Vishniac]

Bring them back, detain them, debrief them on what they know and what they may have done, then charge them if/when evidence comes forward of crimes they might have committed. If not release them under probation or with the requirement that they work with at-risk people to discourage fighting with Da'esh. Seems pretty simple to me.

[Vulkata II]

IF WW2 was to repeat itself then the consequences would lead to ISIS becoming richer but more respected(though the scars never healed properly)

[Liriena]

Did it for German and Italian prisoners of war. Why not repentant ISIS militants?

The former were members of standing armies, ISIS is just a bunch of Jihadis that only flocked to Syria for mayhem, rape and murder.

They lost their humanity in my eyes.

Not in mine. Joining ISIS is a horrid crime as it is, and if they committed that sort of atrocities then I can only condemn their decisions and their actions even more. But nothing you do can ever take away your humanity. And even if you fight for a terrorist organization or a rogue state, rather than an internationally recognized nation, you should not be deprived of your personhood, or judged outside of the rule of law.

Bring them in, keep them in custody and under investigation, and let a proper judiciary judge them for their actions as citizens of their home countries.

Did it for German and Italian prisoners of war. Why not repentant ISIS militants?

Don't confuse political ideology for religion; the latter can have a much stronger hold on the mind.

Also, many of the Italian and German POWs had been conscripted. Their allegiance to fascism is questionable.

I am well aware of the differences, but my point stands. If these defectors committed war crimes while fighting for ISIS, let them be judged for them by a proper judiciary.

[Zoice]

I'm not a fan of clumsiness, but I'm also not a fan of compromising western values by being cruel to defectors, migrants, refugees, etc.

Zoice, we shouldn't be cruel, you're correct. That's why if, say, a family of crime free Syrian refugees under legitimate threat wishes to enter Europe, then they can enter legally, along with some other caveats.

If a migrant from, say, Haiti wants to come to Florida for a better life, similar concepts apply.

However, it is not cruel to deny access to people who went to the Middle East to kill civilians, kill women, kill children, and ultimately act in the name of Jihad. Are some genuinely reformed? Maybe. But I'm not willing to take that risk. You say you don't want to compromise western values. Western values would really be compromised if there were more terrorist attacks as a result of "clumsiness."

I value empathy, forgiveness, and recognizing humanity, to me those are important western values. It is frighteningly easy for people to get manipulated into joining these kinds of groups, we should recognize that ISIS fighters aren't an alien race of psychopaths that are nothing like us - they're people that were misled by a ridiculous and violent ideology, and when they are disillusioned and want to leave, we should welcome them. We should be careful that they actually are sincere, of course, but I do not like the idea that the rest of their lives should be in ultramax.

[The Alma Mater]

Make it a minimum sentence that's not too harsh assuming they didn't do anything besides join up because it was the hippest thing to do. Why should the West discourage the fedora brigade from ditching Daesh?

Pretty sure the actual fedora brigade is by and large unfit for physical activity, much less combat.

Do they need to ? They got the bomb (tm).
Well ok. The Jews also get some credit for that

[The Alma Mater]

Zoice, we shouldn't be cruel, you're correct. That's why if, say, a family of crime free Syrian refugees under legitimate threat wishes to enter Europe, then they can enter legally, along with some other caveats.

If a migrant from, say, Haiti wants to come to Florida for a better life, similar concepts apply.

However, it is not cruel to deny access to people who went to the Middle East to kill civilians, kill women, kill children, and ultimately act in the name of Jihad. Are some genuinely reformed? Maybe. But I'm not willing to take that risk. You say you don't want to compromise western values. Western values would really be compromised if there were more terrorist attacks as a result of "clumsiness."

I value empathy, forgiveness, and recognizing humanity, to me those are important western values. It is frighteningly easy for people to get manipulated into joining these kinds of groups, we should recognize that ISIS fighters aren't an alien race of psychopaths that are nothing like us - they're people that were misled by a ridiculous and violent ideology, and when they are disillusioned and want to leave, we should welcome them. We should be careful that they actually are sincere, of course, but I do not like the idea that the rest of their lives should be in ultramax.

Most of these people, no matter how sincere, will however have joined in the fun" activities IS/DAESH promotes.
While they might gebuinely desire to return.. what do you actually want to do with someone you know has raped 20 women in Syria ? Someone who massacred a village ? Yes, they might feel bad about it, honestly.. but do you really want to welcome them back with open arms and no consequences ?

[San Marlindo]

Make it a minimum sentence that's not too harsh assuming they didn't do anything besides join up because it was the hippest thing to do. Why should the West discourage the fedora brigade from ditching Daesh?

Pretty sure the actual fedora brigade is by and large unfit for physical activity, much less combat.

Glorious Leader being case in point:

[Dahon]

It should be a case-by-case basis to determine whether they're a threat to society or not.

Should the presumption be that they are, or that they aren't.
I think mere membership of the group is sufficient to say they are a threat to society.

There was a time when being a member of the Communist Party in any capitalistic state during the Cold War made you a threat to society, at least in the eyes of even the well-meaning, never mind those who only wanted everyone to bend not to the Communists' will but to their will.

Being an ISIS supporter -- or a Communist sympathizer -- or a Nazi party member -- doesn't automatically make your life verboten.

Or maybe perhaps maggots should be made to feel that they are maggots, no questions asked. Which does raise the stakes for those activists who really feel they are fighting the good fight even though the larger society looks askance at them -- the likes of Martin Luther King or Nelson Mandela or other guys whose skin ain't white, so you feel yourself backing out and out as I continue to cast this aside -- but hey, it does have the virtue of simplicity: all those who oppose the current social order are nonpersons and will be treated as such, while those who accept it will at least be unmolested for the rest of their (luxurious or miserable -- take your pick) lives.

[The Alma Mater]

Should the presumption be that they are, or that they aren't.
I think mere membership of the group is sufficient to say they are a threat to society.

There was a time when being a member of the Communist Party in any capitalistic state during the Cold War made you a threat to society, at least in the eyes of even the well-meaning, never mind those who only wanted everyone to bend not to the Communists' will but to their will.

Being an ISIS supporter -- or a Communist sympathizer -- or a Nazi party member -- doesn't automatically make your life verboten.

These people however did not merely join a party or spread some pamphlets - they actually physically went to a warzone to take part. That is quite a big step further.

[Dahon]

There was a time when being a member of the Communist Party in any capitalistic state during the Cold War made you a threat to society, at least in the eyes of even the well-meaning, never mind those who only wanted everyone to bend not to the Communists' will but to their will.

Being an ISIS supporter -- or a Communist sympathizer -- or a Nazi party member -- doesn't automatically make your life verboten.

These people however did not merely join a party or spread some pamphlets - they actually physically went to a warzone to take part. That is quite a big step further.

There were millions of Nazi Party members in Germany after 1933 -- according to a very quick Wikipeek, about 8.5 million in 1945. Should the war crimes tribunals have prosecuted all of them for such a dastardly act?

[Socialist Tera]

We should execute ISIS members. Terrorists like that don't deserve to live after what they have done to society.

[Des-Bal]

We should execute ISIS members. Terrorists like that don't deserve to live after what they have done to society.

And thereby guarantee that they continue fighting for ISIS.

[Socialist Tera]

We should execute ISIS members. Terrorists like that don't deserve to live after what they have done to society.

And thereby guarantee that they continue fighting for ISIS.

You could say that about the Nazis. Principle matters.