The UK Referendum on Membership of the European Union

[Vassenor]

Vote to leave EU would 'condemn Britain to irrelevance', say historians

[Allet Klar Chefs]

"Struggle to leave Russia 'will condemn Poland to irrelevance' claim historians" - Pravda, 1919.

[Vassenor]

"Struggle to leave Russia 'will condemn Poland to irrelevance' claim historians" - Pravda, 1919.

Do you have an actual rebuttal to the claim?

[Allet Klar Chefs]

"Struggle to leave Russia 'will condemn Poland to irrelevance' claim historians" - Pravda, 1919.

Do you have an actual rebuttal to the claim?

My actual rebuttal is twofold:

1) It's All Events. Britain being the first state to leave the EU, if it does, will be Of Historical Interest. Even if it doesn't, it'll be touted by undergraduates in the 2070s as the day the EU started to break up (unless it hasn't by then). Whatever happens afterwards is going to be History.

2) You, personally, you, will be condemned to irrelevance by state historians in the mould of Kershaw and Ferguson.

You might briefly come up as part of a postdoctorate microhistorian's study, A Marxist Interpretation Of The Socio-Economic Dimensions of Cash And Carry Secondary Markets In Keswick (or wherever you are) During The First EU Refendum of 2016, but otherwise you may as well never have lived.

[Vassenor]

Do you have an actual rebuttal to the claim?

My actual rebuttal is twofold:

1) It's All Events. Britain being the first state to leave the EU, if it does, will be Of Historical Interest. Even if it doesn't, it'll be touted by undergraduates in the 2070s as the day the EU started to break up (unless it hasn't by then). Whatever happens afterwards is going to be History.

2) You, personally, you, will be condemned to irrelevance by state historians in the mould of Kershaw and Ferguson.

You might briefly come up as part of a postdoctorate microhistorian's study, A Marxist Interpretation Of The Socio-Economic Dimensions of Cash And Carry Secondary Markets In Keswick (or wherever you are) During The First EU Refendum of 2016, but otherwise you may as well never have lived.

Do you think I give a damn whether history remembers me or not?

[Allet Klar Chefs]

Do you think I give a damn whether history remembers me or not?

If you don't care about that then why would you have any reason to care about Britain becoming Irrelevant according to historians

[Vassenor]

Do you think I give a damn whether history remembers me or not?

If you don't care about that then why would you have any reason to care about Britain becoming Irrelevant according to historians

...What kind of logic is that?

[Allet Klar Chefs]

If you don't care about that then why would you have any reason to care about Britain becoming Irrelevant according to historians

...What kind of logic is that?

What kind of logic is paying attention to these people who definitely do not care about you's opinions about a thing that doesn't even concern you?

"Ian Kershaw doesn't care if you die"
"Yeah so what"

"Ian Kershaw says Britain will be irrelevant"
"Shit the bed!!!"

How does that even work in your brain.

[Brilliania]

I will be extremely happy when the Brexit happens. Along with the EU fully disbanding. The EU is a disgrace.

[Vassenor]

...What kind of logic is that?

What kind of logic is paying attention to these people who definitely do not care about you's opinions about a thing that doesn't even concern you?

"Ian Kershaw doesn't care if you die"
"Yeah so what"

"Ian Kershaw says Britain will be irrelevant"
"Shit the bed!!!"

How does that even work in your brain.

Why are you trying to prove cognitive dissonance anyway?

[The Tirol Region]

I will be extremely happy when the Brexit happens. Along with the EU fully disbanding. The EU is a disgrace.

Why and how?

[The Nihilistic view]

Do you have an actual rebuttal to the claim?

My actual rebuttal is twofold:

1) It's All Events. Britain being the first state to leave the EU, if it does, will be Of Historical Interest. Even if it doesn't, it'll be touted by undergraduates in the 2070s as the day the EU started to break up (unless it hasn't by then). Whatever happens afterwards is going to be History.

2) You, personally, you, will be condemned to irrelevance by state historians in the mould of Kershaw and Ferguson.

You might briefly come up as part of a postdoctorate microhistorian's study, A Marxist Interpretation Of The Socio-Economic Dimensions of Cash And Carry Secondary Markets In Keswick (or wherever you are) During The First EU Refendum of 2016, but otherwise you may as well never have lived.

Oh Jesus.

[Imperializt Russia]

...What kind of logic is that?

What kind of logic is paying attention to these people who definitely do not care about you's opinions about a thing that doesn't even concern you?

"Ian Kershaw doesn't care if you die"
"Yeah so what"

"Ian Kershaw says Britain will be irrelevant"
"Shit the bed!!!"

How does that even work in your brain.

Put down the crazy pills.

[Imperium Britannicum]

Ian Kershaw is a top lad tbh.

[Imperium Britannicum]

Are people serious in the belief that Britain will somehow fade away if we leave? It's not like we've got the Commonwealth to help us, and other countries, no matter how much you try to deny it, cannot afford to stop trading with Britain. The 5th largest economy can't just wither and die because it left a failing, undemocratic trade union. And by the way, even if prices did raise just like the fools over at the In campaign are saying, we're £12bn a year better off to combat that.

Or we could just be like Norway and get used to living in a sovereign country.

[Olerand]

Current chance of Brexit: 18% and falling, according to http://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2016-brexit-watch/

Markets rallied the past few days on the recent polls.

Now, I need to go on a wine run, I'm going to start gathering my wits -and my alcohol- already.

[Imperializt Russia]

Are people serious in the belief that Britain will somehow fade away if we leave? It's not like we've got the Commonwealth to help us

The Commonwealth, lol

, and other countries, no matter how much you try to deny it, cannot afford to stop trading with Britain.

No-one ever said this.

The 5th largest economy can't just wither and die because it left a failing, undemocratic trade union.

Or this.

And by the way, even if prices did raise just like the fools over at the In campaign are saying, we're £12bn a year better off to combat that.

Except for all the stuff we get back from the EU including direct subsidy, occasional funding of things like half of the country's university research and infrastructure projects this government would never have funded.

Besides, the public purse would be £12bn better off, allegedly. We, consumers, members of the public, wouldn't see that. We'd see increased prices.

Or we could just be like Norway and get used to living in a sovereign country.

A sovereign country that has no input on the laws and regulations it has to follow to trade within the EU. So democratic, so sovereign.

[Imperium Britannicum]

Are people serious in the belief that Britain will somehow fade away if we leave? It's not like we've got the Commonwealth to help us

The Commonwealth, lol

, and other countries, no matter how much you try to deny it, cannot afford to stop trading with Britain.

No-one ever said this.

The 5th largest economy can't just wither and die because it left a failing, undemocratic trade union.

Or this.

And by the way, even if prices did raise just like the fools over at the In campaign are saying, we're £12bn a year better off to combat that.

Except for all the stuff we get back from the EU including direct subsidy, occasional funding of things like half of the country's university research and infrastructure projects this government would never have funded.

Or we could just be like Norway and get used to living in a sovereign country.

A sovereign country that has no input on the laws and regulations it has to follow to trade within the EU. So democratic, so sovereign.

We pay way more into the EU than what we get back. University research is hardly funded at all.
And don't say that nobody has not said that Britain will die if it leaves. Look through the pages of this very thread and you'll see people saying that Britain can't survive on its own.

[Vassenor]

Haven't we already established that Canada and Australia would prefer we stay in though? So much for the Commonwealth argument.

[Imperializt Russia]

The Commonwealth, lol
No-one ever said this.
Or this.
Except for all the stuff we get back from the EU including direct subsidy, occasional funding of things like half of the country's university research and infrastructure projects this government would never have funded.
A sovereign country that has no input on the laws and regulations it has to follow to trade within the EU. So democratic, so sovereign.

We pay way more into the EU than what we get back. University research is hardly funded at all.
And don't say that nobody has not said that Britain will die if it leaves. Look through the pages of this very thread and you'll see people saying that Britain can't survive on its own.

I don't know any academic who doesn't apply directly for EU funding, or apply to funding councils sequentially funded by the EU. The state of research in this country is dire, unless you go industrially-backed.

We can't carry on as before if we leave the EU. We may not return to our current level, ever.
This is not the same as "we will not survive", which no-one has actually said.

[Netherlands Mualenia]

We pay way more into the EU than what we get back. University research is hardly funded at all.
And don't say that nobody has not said that Britain will die if it leaves. Look through the pages of this very thread and you'll see people saying that Britain can't survive on its own.

I don't know any academic who doesn't apply directly for EU funding, or apply to funding councils sequentially funded by the EU. The state of research in this country is dire, unless you go industrially-backed.

We can't carry on as before if we leave the EU. We may not return to our current level, ever.
This is not the same as "we will not survive", which no-one has actually said.

I agree with Imperializt Russia here.

The issue with Britain at this moment is that they don't have anything that defines them on the world market to the average merchant/businessman/whatever. I often hear the Switzerland example when it comes to successful countries in Europe outside of the EU, but the big difference is that they work incredibly hard with the unique mixture of tourism and international banking that keeps them alive and rich. Norway is considered by economics experts as a literal paradox, so I don't think we should even put them in the discussion.

Britain, on the other hand, relies on pretty the same products and businesses as other European countries, and simply leaving the European market and try to strike your own path is not going to be the economic success you can hope for unless you find something unique or simply go a step back and redo the British economy entirely (perhaps an industrial country? Who knows).

My own country, the Netherlands, has a chance of creating a life outside of the EU simply because of our location (and access) as a trading hub between the entire world and expertises in the sectors of trade and engineering that will keep us alive such as Switzerland and Norway, although I still wouldn’t risk it unless our government has a good plan on how to reform our economy. The Netherlands, for example, would have to give up a lot of its trade barriers and regulations that could temporarily negatively affect the Dutch population just so that we can establish ourselves as a place to register your companies, send your cargo ships to, distribute from to other countries and even creating gigantic factory parks in and around Rotterdam to create a massive China-like economy although the Chinese are luckily our economic partners instead of rivals. The Netherlands could also bring back the Guilder to create a currency that is a perfect balance between the Euro and other currencies for international trade. Britain has to find its own course in this, and I fear that Britain simply isn’t in a position to do that as of yet.

To the nationalists of Britain that want to leave the EU for political reasons: You have to ask yourself if Britain is going to change if it leaves the EU. Will it be economically worse off for your people and country to currently leave it? Cameron and the major parties might still keep importing loads of refugees/migrants to your country even if you step out of the EU, while keeping protectionist policies up that will ruin the lives of your fellow citizens, your hometown and eventually the country. I really love my country and people but I would stay in the EU, how crooked it may be, if it offers a better future than going alone.

[Imperializt Russia]

My own country, the Netherlands, has a chance of creating a life outside of the EU simply because of our location (and access) as a trading hub between the entire world and expertises in the sectors of trade and engineering that will keep us alive such as Switzerland and Norway, although I still wouldn’t risk it unless our government has a good plan on how to reform our economy.

Just saying, but this also applies almost exactly to the UK.

[Netherlands Mualenia]

My own country, the Netherlands, has a chance of creating a life outside of the EU simply because of our location (and access) as a trading hub between the entire world and expertises in the sectors of trade and engineering that will keep us alive such as Switzerland and Norway, although I still wouldn’t risk it unless our government has a good plan on how to reform our economy.

Just saying, but this also applies almost exactly to the UK.

The differences are that the Netherlands has Rotterdam and half of Europe having to rely on Rotterdam because of logistical reasons, while the UK simply isn't in a position to compete with Rotterdam and runner-ups Antwerp and Hamburg.

[Marcurix]

The Commonwealth, lol
No-one ever said this.
Or this.
Except for all the stuff we get back from the EU including direct subsidy, occasional funding of things like half of the country's university research and infrastructure projects this government would never have funded.
A sovereign country that has no input on the laws and regulations it has to follow to trade within the EU. So democratic, so sovereign.

We pay way more into the EU than what we get back.

You'll feel free to outline those costs and benefits then, to prove your point.

University research is hardly funded at all.

But apparently enough that more than a few academics, including Stephen Hawking, have raised concerns about the loss of that funding and it's impact on British research.

And don't say that nobody has not said that Britain will die if it leaves. Look through the pages of this very thread and you'll see people saying that Britain can't survive on its own.

Feel free to show such examples.

[Hydesland]

Just saying, but this also applies almost exactly to the UK.

The differences are that the Netherlands has Rotterdam and half of Europe having to rely on Rotterdam because of logistical reasons, while the UK simply isn't in a position to compete with Rotterdam and runner-ups Antwerp and Hamburg.

This isn't really relevant to much as I'm firmly pro remain, but you have Rotterdam, we have London, which remains the top global financial centre: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/eb72290c-61ce ... z49itJkZBt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Fi ... tres_Index