Islam/Muslim Discussion Thread ٢

[Ted Cruz 4 2016]

Here's my two cents (I probably won't see if anyone replies to this because I am a busy man representing the GREAT state of Texas): Islam is NOT bad, but an extremist ideology has spread within some Muslim communities. This is a real problem that Muslims must confront without excuse. Muslim leaders here and around the globe have to continue working with us to decisively and unequivocally reject the hateful ideology that groups like ISIL and al-Qaida promote; to speak out against not just acts of violence, but also those interpretations of Islam that are incompatible with the values of religious tolerance, mutual respect, and human dignity.

We will kill the terrorists, carpet bomb ISIS into oblivion, and protect the American homeland- and we welcome any Muslims who want to join us in our crusade of righteousness, democracy, and liberty in fighting off these animals who distort your religion into something it's not.

GOD bless America!

[The Smith Protectorate]

But there's no national unity and never was in such artificial state. Iraq, same as Syria, were silly Franco-British inventions, when they betrayed their muslim allies fighting Ottomans side by side.

Not trying to play the blame game, but the West caused a lot of this violence in the Middle East, through invasion, colonialism, tricking Muslims to fight against other Muslims, etc. And with the translation debate, I went to an Islamic school my masjid does, and the Arabic teachers tell us to learn Arabic to translate it for ourselves so this kind of trouble won't happen.

So it was the west that caused you to economically and technologically decline in the 1400's? It was the west that caused you to use Sharia law and to halt your own democracy? Is it the west that allows free speech and free press in her countries? Is it the west that allows secularism? Your problems are you own, blaming others for your problems is childish, stop being a child and reform like 19th century Japan. Concerning people who lag behind your the rule not the exception.

[Socialist Czechia]

btw. what would muslims say not only to jewish state, but christian state in Levant as well? lebanon and syria is hardly safe for them. why not very own, tiny republic?

alawite and druze states should be established as well.

[Alsheb]

Not trying to play the blame game, but the West caused a lot of this violence in the Middle East, through invasion, colonialism, tricking Muslims to fight against other Muslims, etc. And with the translation debate, I went to an Islamic school my masjid does, and the Arabic teachers tell us to learn Arabic to translate it for ourselves so this kind of trouble won't happen.

So it was the west that caused you to economically and technologically decline in the 1400's? It was the west that caused you to use Sharia law and to halt your own democracy? Is it the west that allows free speech and free press in her countries? Is it the west that allows secularism? Your problems are you own, blaming others for your problems is childish, stop being a child and reform like 19th century Japan. Concerning people who lag behind your the rule not the exception.

Sure, because historical processes play absolutely no role in contemporary events. Modern society exists in a complete vacuum *nods*.

Also, great denial there about the imperialist ambitions and policies from western nations influencing events in the Middle East today. Imperialists are always so damn keen to pretend that imperialism and colonialism ceased to exist in the 1960s. Well, it didn't.

[Germanic Scyths]

btw. what would muslims say not only to jewish state, but christian state in Levant as well? lebanon and syria is hardly safe for them. why not very own, tiny republic?

alawite and druze states should be established as well.

What do you mean that Lebanon is hardly safe for them? I got a Christian (Catholic) friend who lives in Lebanon and she says it's pretty fine.

Syria is not safe because of the war. AFAIK it was okay before the war.

[The Smith Protectorate]

So it was the west that caused you to economically and technologically decline in the 1400's? It was the west that caused you to use Sharia law and to halt your own democracy? Is it the west that allows free speech and free press in her countries? Is it the west that allows secularism? Your problems are you own, blaming others for your problems is childish, stop being a child and reform like 19th century Japan. Concerning people who lag behind your the rule not the exception.

Sure, because historical processes play absolutely no role in contemporary events. Modern society exists in a complete vacuum *nods*.

Also, great denial there about the imperialist ambitions and policies from western nations influencing events in the Middle East today. Imperialists are always so damn keen to pretend that imperialism and colonialism ceased to exist in the 1960s. Well, it didn't.

I never said modern history was in a vacuum, and in what universe are the 'western nations', note the plural, interested in imperialism in your land? We made the UN including its anti colonial terms and you think we want imperialism? Fool. You have no excuse, 60 years is plenty of time for reform, except it's easier to blame someone else and spread vitriolic about them, rather than deal with the root of the problem, like I said you follow the rule - you are not the exception. I'd like to point out you never answered my questions - if Islam was truly in the realm of progress it would be doing a little better than what it currently is. There have been plenty of nations that have come out of colonialism and don't have extremist groups running around, parts of Southern Africa have there own problems (but they are only 60 years old, not the 1,400 years that Islams been around) and yet I notice the distinct lack extremist groups based on purely religious means. I'm British, I have imperialism in my blood - I don't support it either, nor deny it. Yet to say I deny history is merely Ad hominem against me and hardly hitting the point. Today as you say is based off of the past so to ask questions about history, as you point out, is totally valid. and to show 60 years is enough - Israel *cough* the only democracy in all of the Middle East.

[Aelex]

btw. what would muslims say not only to jewish state, but christian state in Levant as well? lebanon and syria is hardly safe for them. why not very own, tiny republic?

alawite and druze states should be established as well.

What do you mean that Lebanon is hardly safe for them? I got a Christian (Catholic) friend who lives in Lebanon and she says it's pretty fine.

Syria is not safe because of the war. AFAIK it was okay before the war.

Heh. It may have changed since then but my grand-pa fled Syria after the French left because he feared an outburst of violence against Christian now that there were no colonial overlord to keep muslims in check anymore. From what I understood, he was partly right.

[Socialist Czechia]

btw. what would muslims say not only to jewish state, but christian state in Levant as well? lebanon and syria is hardly safe for them. why not very own, tiny republic?

alawite and druze states should be established as well.

What do you mean that Lebanon is hardly safe for them? I got a Christian (Catholic) friend who lives in Lebanon and she says it's pretty fine.

Syria is not safe because of the war. AFAIK it was okay before the war.

...and there was previously very similar civil war in Lebanon. Can these states really survive?

[Germanic Scyths]

What do you mean that Lebanon is hardly safe for them? I got a Christian (Catholic) friend who lives in Lebanon and she says it's pretty fine.

Syria is not safe because of the war. AFAIK it was okay before the war.

...and there was previously very similar civil war in Lebanon. Can these states really survive?

They can, they can not. Time will tell, but at the moment, Lebanon is safe. Any state has a potential to fall into civil war. Time is the best teller whether states survive or not.

What do you mean that Lebanon is hardly safe for them? I got a Christian (Catholic) friend who lives in Lebanon and she says it's pretty fine.

Syria is not safe because of the war. AFAIK it was okay before the war.

Heh. It may have changed since then but my grand-pa fled Syria after the French left because he feared an outburst of violence against Christian now that there were no colonial overlord to keep muslims in check anymore. From what I understood, he was partly right.

Assad keeps the mobs in check. Until the start of the civil war.

[Aelex]

Sure, because historical processes play absolutely no role in contemporary events. Modern society exists in a complete vacuum *nods*.

Also, great denial there about the imperialist ambitions and policies from western nations influencing events in the Middle East today. Imperialists are always so damn keen to pretend that imperialism and colonialism ceased to exist in the 1960s. Well, it didn't.

Everyone, ready the tin-foil hats, Imperialism is coming to get us aller!
Also, did the Département d'Algérie was rightfully reunified to the Métropole while I was out buying some baguettes ? Is Egypt an English protectorate once more?
No?
Such a shame. I guess you're just spouting conspiratory bollocks, thus.

[Sanctissima]

Sure, because historical processes play absolutely no role in contemporary events. Modern society exists in a complete vacuum *nods*.

Also, great denial there about the imperialist ambitions and policies from western nations influencing events in the Middle East today. Imperialists are always so damn keen to pretend that imperialism and colonialism ceased to exist in the 1960s. Well, it didn't.

Everyone, ready the tin-foil hats, Imperialism is coming to get us aller!
Also, did the Département d'Algérie was rightfully reunified to the Métropole while I was out buying some baguettes ? Is Egypt an English protectorate once more?
No?
Such a shame. I guess you're just spouting conspiratory bollocks, thus.

You do realize that your own country has an unhealthy interest in North African affairs, yes?

It's not exactly what I'd call imperialism, but the French government has had some pretty interventionist tendencies. Even Hollande has continued France's North African policies, which aren't exactly live-and-let-live.

[Aelex]

You do realize that your own country has an unhealthy interest in North African affairs, yes?

It's not exactly what I'd call imperialism, but the French government has had some pretty interventionist tendencies. Even Hollande has continued France's North African policies, which aren't exactly live-and-let-live.

Heh. Fair enough with the Françafrique tho we aren't talking about what's happening theree but rather about the Middle East.

[Sanctissima]

You do realize that your own country has an unhealthy interest in North African affairs, yes?

It's not exactly what I'd call imperialism, but the French government has had some pretty interventionist tendencies. Even Hollande has continued France's North African policies, which aren't exactly live-and-let-live.

Heh. Fair enough with the Françafrique tho we aren't talking about what's happening theree but rather about the Middle East.

True, but since the conversation kind of teetered towards imperialism in general, and given how North Africa is mostly part of the Muslim world, I think it was worth noting.

While France has less interests in Middle-East proper, the same isn't true for other European and Western powers. Most of the West's leaders are in bed with Saudi Arabia in some form or other, and both the UK and US have (until very recently) been pretty gun-ho about the Middle-East in general. It's not conspiracy-level stuff, but most of the West is playing a dicey game of geopolitics in that corner of the world.

[Alsheb]

Sure, because historical processes play absolutely no role in contemporary events. Modern society exists in a complete vacuum *nods*.

Also, great denial there about the imperialist ambitions and policies from western nations influencing events in the Middle East today. Imperialists are always so damn keen to pretend that imperialism and colonialism ceased to exist in the 1960s. Well, it didn't.

Everyone, ready the tin-foil hats, Imperialism is coming to get us aller!
Also, did the Département d'Algérie was rightfully reunified to the Métropole while I was out buying some baguettes ? Is Egypt an English protectorate once more?
No?
Such a shame. I guess you're just spouting conspiratory bollocks, thus.

Jesus Christ, sometimes I think you just purposefully try to act stupid in order to derail the discussion at hand.

Who the hell ever said that you need to miltarily colonise a country in order to have influence over it? You don't have to be a specialist in order to know that imperialism works in far more diverse ways than simply colonialism.

[Napkiraly]

Heh. Fair enough with the Françafrique tho we aren't talking about what's happening theree but rather about the Middle East.

True, but since the conversation kind of teetered towards imperialism in general, and given how North Africa is mostly part of the Muslim world, I think it was worth noting.

While France has less interests in Middle-East proper, the same isn't true for other European and Western powers. Most of the West's leaders are in bed with Saudi Arabia in some form or other, and both the UK and US have (until very recently) been pretty gun-ho about the Middle-East in general. It's not conspiracy-level stuff, but most of the West is playing a dicey game of geopolitics in that corner of the world.

*cringes*

[Sanctissima]

True, but since the conversation kind of teetered towards imperialism in general, and given how North Africa is mostly part of the Muslim world, I think it was worth noting.

While France has less interests in Middle-East proper, the same isn't true for other European and Western powers. Most of the West's leaders are in bed with Saudi Arabia in some form or other, and both the UK and US have (until very recently) been pretty gun-ho about the Middle-East in general. It's not conspiracy-level stuff, but most of the West is playing a dicey game of geopolitics in that corner of the world.

*cringes*

What?

Are you under the impression that that's not what's going on?

[Alsheb]

Also, just because the person in charge of a country was born in that country, does not mean that a country is therefore free from imperialism.
Mobutu was Congolese. Pinochet was Chilean. Yeltsin was Russian. That doesn't mean that they inherently are interested in the good of their country or people.

Part of the problem in the world nowadays is that the majority of leaders in the Third World are just that - corrupted stooges who get most of their salaries through the selling out of their country. There are billions of dollars pouring into countries like Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan every year. The fact that it's not literally an American at the throne of such countries does not mean there is no imperialism influencing the decisions their leaders make.

[Napkiraly]

*cringes*

What?

Are you under the impression that that's not what's going on?

Geopolitics is the effects of geography on politics and international relations. For instance, the absence of natural barriers = aggressive and expansionist foreign policy.

It's really just politics they're playing. Geography plays a role, definitely, but its more of an analytical tool.

[Sanctissima]

What?

Are you under the impression that that's not what's going on?

Geopolitics is the effects of geography on politics and international relations. For instance, the absence of natural barriers = aggressive and expansionist foreign policy.

It's really just politics they're playing. Geography plays a role, definitely, but its more of an analytical tool.

Huh, I... I guess I learned something new today. I always thought that the word 'geopolitics' was just synonymous with international politics.

[Napkiraly]

Geopolitics is the effects of geography on politics and international relations. For instance, the absence of natural barriers = aggressive and expansionist foreign policy.

It's really just politics they're playing. Geography plays a role, definitely, but its more of an analytical tool.

Huh, I... I guess I learned something new today. I always thought that the word 'geopolitics' was just synonymous with international politics.

No. Someone made that mistake in uni and had a book thrown at them. My prof...the red mist of death falls before his eyes if you misuse the term. Hence why I've learned to become so wary of its misusage.

[Ghuraba Al-Khorusani]

'Corrupted' lol the only corruption is from Liberal apostates. You want some made up lies written by fellow apostates instead of what Allah has givien to us you should be ashamed of your open Bidah.

Your Salafist friends are the biggest perpetrators of bid'ah in the world, so you have no right to accuse outhers of corruption of the faith.

Okay what should I expect from a Hadith rejecting Communist Murtad

[Greater Tezdrian]

Your Salafist friends are the biggest perpetrators of bid'ah in the world, so you have no right to accuse outhers of corruption of the faith.

Okay what should I expect from a Hadith rejecting Communist Murtad

Quranist =\= apostate

[Ghuraba Al-Khorusani]

Okay what should I expect from a Hadith rejecting Communist Murtad

Quranist =\= apostate

Yes

[Napkiraly]

Okay what should I expect from a Hadith rejecting Communist Murtad

Quranist =\= apostate

To Salafist like him it is.

[Communist Xomaniax]

It's not exactly what I'd call imperialism, but the French government has had some pretty interventionist tendencies. Even Hollande has continued France's North African policies, which aren't exactly live-and-let-live.

It hardly counts as imperialism if the affected nation asks for their help.