Illegal Script Usage "Predator": Punishments

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

So why break the rate limit if following the rate limit would let it work just as well? I assume being able to check more often allowed it to be more accurate than what anyone else could do.

I would say you should definitely point put that sticker on anything Halc was involved in at this point.

Just to note, I added to my post.

It would have been slightly less accurate, perhaps? I don't know, it doesn't make sense to me or a lot of other people. It seems to have been in violation long before Halc was DOS, and the punishments for users who only used it under TBR fit that, which means it wasn't just something he added after being DOS to fuck people over. Early attempts at a legal timer (again halted pending changes to how update works from Admin) achieved an accuracy range only one second wider than Predator's (at least until something broke and it became 30 seconds wider >.>) - so it seems the advantage was minimal.


No kidding.

[95 block]

I guess you are more optimistic about how raiders view rules. It shouldn't require the mods to have to point out every little thing. Players knew or should have known that associating with DoS players, who were DoS because they had broken script rules, was a risk. They chose to take that risk. Not wanting to suffer the consequences of their actions is just the human nature showing.

That's a pretty bold statement you're making to one of the people that got DEAT'd and WA banned. Believe it or not, I don't like breaking the rules, in fact, I'm pissed off about the fact that some stupid script someone wrote is responsible for killing my main nation, and removing any possibility of me participating in raids beyond telling people GO, and I didn't even use the thing after he was DoS.

None of us knew the damn thing broke the rules, and from what I heard, the people that still used Predator asked if it was still legal and got a 'yes.' there was no 'risk' to take at the time.

Nobody on that list, myself included, is asking for our nations back, so quit vilifying us, and quit acting like we intentionally tried to break the rules.

This is exactly how I feel. Except to add that I've never used predator. I play NS on my iMac. Predator is a Windows application that doesn't work on Apple products. What I did do, and I'm sure I'm not the only one that did; was notify Halcones that the way the game updates was changing. See, I was a member of High Command in TBR, and most recently in DEN, and all I knew about predator was that Halcones handed it out as a raiding tool to get region update times , and I believed it got its time from recieving issues however I could be wrong about that as I'm completely coding illiterate. That's literally all I've done in regards to predator was let Halc know his tool might need to be updated. It seems that others who got punished exclusively also either barely used the tool of hadn't used it in ages. So this really does look like a suspicious ruling. As far as on site game play, my record is completely clean aside from accidentally WA multiying some years back, as I do try to play by the rules.

I've accepted my punishment. I'm not complaining. I'm just expressing how I feel. In regards to benefitting from predator despite never using it, I am truly sorry. I'm sorry to the moderators and I'm sorry to the defenders. I'm sorry that you had to struggle against a tool that was designed to essentially break your spirit. I'm sorry that some of us in the raiding community were malicious in creating illegal scripts. I'm sorry that those of in responsible positions in the raiding community never even thought to question the tools we used, and gobbled them up like candy. I'm sorry we unknowingly forced you to play against us in a game where we had an unfair advantage. I'm sorry that you feel betrayed by our ignorant unsportmanship. I'm simply sorry.

Going forward, I will endeavor to ensure that my part in raiding is good, true, virtuous, honest, sportsmanlike, gameplay. I will strive to do better for those that rely on me, look to me for orders and guidance. I will do better by defenders by doing my damnedest to play cleaning 120% going forward.

I'm not brilliant at writing and correctly and accurately conveying what I want to say/how I see things/how I feel about events like most everyone else here in GP, which is why you hardly see me post here. I hope you accept this testimony of mine as I feel I had to get it off my chest.

[Vaygr Empire]

TL:DR
An entire 2 regions are being deleted because a few of the people who happened to be in those regions we using "illegal scripts"

IMHO, thats a huge dick move on NationStates part and a very improfessional thing to do.

[Tsushima Yoshiko]

TL:DR
An entire 2 regions are being deleted because a few of the people who happened to be in those regions we using "illegal scripts"

IMHO, thats a huge dick move on NationStates part and a very improfessional thing to do.

Hahah. Far, far more than two regions are dead because of this.

[Guy]

Defenders and raiders cannot exist without one another, so both groups should be hoping for a quick recovery from this blight. It really does make no sense for a raider to cheer when defenders get deleted or defenders to cheer when raiders are deleted. The competition has been thinned, and when that happens, both sides ultimately suffer.

There is very little doubt in my mind that today's punishments will greatly increase competitiveness in R/D. Invader groups took a game that is already easier for them to succeed in, and blatantly broke the rules. It's hard to say that people being deleted is a good thing, but one would be disingenuous to say that there can be no positive effects. You don't usually come out smiling when punishments are handed down, but they are usually handed down for a very good reason - and it is to better our game.

---

The claim that the regional punishments towards DEN and Cimmeria are disproportionate or unfair (being a form of collective punishment) are difficult for me to accept. When a group of people invade regions, change their WFE, claim it as a trophy, suppress their RMBs etc in the name of DEN, it becomes very difficult to separate their actions from the region.

In common parlance, we associate these individuals' actions with DEN. We say "DEN invaded this region." "It's a DEN occupation." DEN used these illegal invasions as a recruitment tool. Even more importantly, these invasions had the aim of furthering DEN's goals, as an invader region. DEN benefited from these illegal invasions, which were perpetuated in its name. When the breaches are this grave, and last across almost all invasions undertaken by DEN, it's clear that it bears a huge share of the responsibility, regionally.

---

Some people (especially kyorgia) are claiming that individuals who had nothing to do with Predator are being personally punished. My understanding is that personal punishments were only effected with regards to people who had direct involvement with Predator. Mods received a fair amount of admissions and evidence. If those people have evidence to the contrary, I think they should GHR it in appealing their punishments.

[Natapoc]

TL:DR
An entire 2 regions are being deleted because a few of the people who happened to be in those regions we using "illegal scripts"

IMHO, thats a huge dick move on NationStates part and a very improfessional thing to do.

It's reasonable and somewhat moderate. The use of the illegal script evaded moderation for years. The punishment must be enough to prevent someone else from writing a less detectable illegal script and getting away with it for years.

It is essential that the consequences of cheating are sufficient to prevent others from doing this in the future. Not everyone who was associated with this script was punished.

If this were a severe punishment, you'd see several other raiding regions destroyed and many more people DOS. TBH should consider themselves lucky since they often participated in raids with TBR and DEN at times when the illegal script was likely used and there seems to be quite a bit of collaboration. It was likely the early denouncement of the illegal script that spared them the same fate.

My interpretation is that the mods believe that the players they did not DOS will learn to be more cautious of potential rule breaking in the future... Indeed that appears to have already happened. I suspect the punishment was as mild as the mods believed it could be without providing incentive for future cheaters.

[CoraSpia]

I don't understand why everyone is saying how unfair the game was. If you know raiders have a script, don't gripe about it...go make your own and show enitiative.

[Natapoc]

I don't understand why everyone is saying how unfair the game was. If you know raiders have a script, don't gripe about it...go make your own and show enitiative.

Turning a game into a script writing competition is exactly what any game developer does NOT want.

The more advantage scripts give the more likley they are to be dealt with by:
1. System changes to render the advantages mute.
2. Rule changes to make the advantages violate the TOS.

Nationstates is generous in that it tends to prefer technical solutions(option 1) over "legal" solutions(option 2) when possible. The entire raiding "game" as it currently exists is the result of such a preference.

[Elke and Elba]

I don't understand why everyone is saying how unfair the game was. If you know raiders have a script, don't gripe about it...go make your own and show enitiative.

Turning a game into a script writing competition is exactly what any game developer does NOT want.

The more advantage scripts give the more likley they are to be dealt with by:
1. System changes to render the advantages mute.
2. Rule changes to make the advantages violate the TOS.

Nationstates is generous in that it tends to prefer technical solutions(option 1) over "legal" solutions(option 2) when possible. The entire raiding "game" as it currently exists is the result of such a preference.

Reading Coraspia's response gave me the impression he doesn't even know what the hell is happening here except just to come in to comment.

Anyway, I guess the lesson here is about being extremely sure what you're using at the very least. While alll of us know ignorance of the rules isn't a proper defense, we should be more careful about stuff - I mean you wouldn't just carry a bag you did not pack over immigration and customs without asking what its contents are, ja?

[Consular]

I guess this explains all the ex-nation posts I've been seeing.

I wonder, would this ruling and the drama that caused it have any effect on that ridiculous raiding hall of fame thing that was done not all that long ago? Wasn't Halcones praised and admitted? His legacy seems somewhat tainted now, no?

Halcones was not admitted to the raider hall of fame. Gest was, though.

Right, thanks. Couldn't remember.

[Haley Ramen]

For what little it's worth, I would like to formally protest some of the moderator response to this incident.

The extent to which players who had nothing to do with Predator are being adversely affected by this is inexcusable and disgusting -- such as with the death of Iwaku.

I would like to elaborate upon my thoughts and feelings, but at the moment I feel I'm too emotionally compromised, so I'll keep it short.

The problem about DEATing the main nations is that something is bound to happen. Vandoosa's DEATing caused Iwaku to be founderless.

I don't get the logic here because I am affected by what is happening by Iwaku, given Vandoosa/Thembria is Yggdrasil's RMB lord and a friend of many of us. But people have to understand that rules and rules, and if you break it, you have to pay. That affects the region, but it isn't the first time anyway. Tofuline had to move to Tofulinearity and to idk where after Thafoo's DEAT and DOS, so did Sanctum need to move to Asylum when Riftanity DOS. What makes this case any different then?

And please, don't give Vandoosa any more stress. Can we all agree it is much better to move over to the Iwaku community for those who want to over to Eientei Gensokyo? Your response over here doesn't place any burden on the mods, but on Vandoosa, who somehow let it happened and had to pay the price and dragged Iwaku into it.

"But people have to understand that rules and rules, and if you break it, you have to pay."

This right here. I have filed a GHR requesting a much bigger payment of a puppet sweep of all my other nations as well as permanent ban from the WA in exchange for giving me Vandoosa back. It would save Iwaku and I'd be severely punished for my part in this. Everyone wins! cept me of course.. I'd have to make new puppets and would never be able to run for delegate or participate in R/D gameplay but I think it's a fair compromise to save Iwaku. I really hope the mods consider that request...

*is Vandoosa by the way*

[Of crazed]

Considering the debate over whether the most recent incarnation of DEN should've been celebrating their "12 year anniversary", some of the arguments in this thread seem kinda of silly. What, so they are DEN when they're celebrating an anniversary, but they aren't DEN when they're getting punished for it?

The argument for deleting every region with the word DEN in it is that DEN is simply a continuation of The Black Riders, which is untrue. The DEN regions were not habitual cheaters over 12 years of NationStates. I guess members of the black Riders who went to DEN were, but the argument that DEN cheated habitually is a lie.

[Numero Capitan]

Funny how much invaders seem to care about regions being destroyed or are now founderless when they're the ones being hurt (for once there's actually a good justification for a region being destroyed)

The whining is rather pathetic, but when it turns into attacking those who moderate this community and their integrity I take some offence. These people give up their time, and have given up a hell of a lot of it to sort through this mess, gather all the facts (that the rest of us don't fully have) and agree a commensurate punishment. People have deliberately circumvented the rules in place to make this game enjoyable for all of us, for a long time, they've been lying to the mods about the legality of what they do and bragging about the results. For their friends to now come and criticise the mods is very poor form. Yeah it's crap, but that's what happens when you ally yourselves with rule breakers and those who socialise will DOS players.

Those regions used a tool every update that gave them an unfair advantage over everyone else who plays the game as it was designed, regardless of whether you 'know it's illegal' that should be raising flags in a big way. I don't believe that any of those involved didn't question the legality of it, they just either chose not to investigate or they turned a blind eye because it was benefitting them so who cares about the rules.

Old DEN members, you let your region be hijacked by a community that had lost its own home from rulebreaking. I have some sympathy but that's what happens when you give away a brand. Don't direct your anger at the mods, they're just doing a job, direct it at the people you entrusted your history with who then went a shit the bed with it. They didn't need to move to DEN, they could have started any new region, but they did it to gain an advantage and abused your trust.

DEN was an organisation that marketed itself on rejecting the way every other nation plays the game as boring and invited people to ruin others experience of the game. It's marketing strategy was to make the NAME feared across nationstates, to aim for infamy. Read their recruitment telegrams, look at the way their plastered the DEN name across countless regions, most of which had no other strategic benefit, look at the way they always tried to condemn themselves and their own members. To punish individuals and let the name live on only adds to their notoriety. I've seen it before on NS, when one region gets known for region destruction or forum destruction it acts as a weird recruitment tool for attracting more players who want to break the rules. DEN wallowed in being the bad guys, they flaunted the way they destroyed other people's regions. No problem in theory but if you break the rules for two years and build your success on it you're going to get hit hard, and any punishment that allows the DEN name to be preserved in any form misses the mark in my opinion, if anything it would give future DEN the notoriety they crave.

[Woonrocket]

These punishments are way too hard and its really showing how defender biased the moderation team is. People that had almost nothing to do with Predator or had stooped using predator was hit with main deletions and WA bans, regions with DEN in them that were not even controlled by this new version of DEN has been killed.This is all a big overreaction when people who have cheated and worked with DOS players has in the past got off easier. This has just confirmed what i have been thinking for a long time, the moderation team is so defender biased its not even funny.

This made me smile, because defenders say exactly the same thing about raider bias on the part of the mods. The smile comes because one good definition of compromise is that both sides are equally unhappy with the people in the middle. Do you suppose that the mods are actually doing a good job of walking that fine line if everybody thinks they lean towards the other side?

[Of crazed]

Sorry for all the pathetic whining. Let's keep comparing a region getting raided to banning all future carnations of it and they deserve it because they were mean to me.

[Eluvatar]

It would have been slightly less accurate, perhaps? I don't know, it doesn't make sense to me or a lot of other people. It seems to have been in violation long before Halc was DOS, and the punishments for users who only used it under TBR fit that, which means it wasn't just something he added after being DOS to fuck people over. Early attempts at a legal timer (again halted pending changes to how update works from Admin) achieved an accuracy range only one second wider than Predator's (at least until something broke and it became 30 seconds wider >.>) - so it seems the advantage was minimal.


No kidding.

I am somewhat skeptical of this claim. Keep in mind that when variations are random, they will sometimes be negligible. You may need more data.

[The Will of Kane]

Why are all the regions who used the tools not listed? Why are only two of the regions who used the tools deleted?

I was trying to get either TBH removed in the op or everyone named but was told it was because- "They were the primary source of the violations."
Obviously there's grounds to argue this but what's the point at this stage? The effect, coincidental or otherwise, has already been felt.

...Defenders and raiders cannot exist without one another, so both groups should be hoping for a quick recovery from this blight. It really does make no sense for a raider to cheer when defenders get deleted or defenders to cheer when raiders are deleted. The competition has been thinned, and when that happens, both sides ultimately suffer.

Indeed. I've kept this sentiment close over my raiding career. Nicely said.

And I'm not going to quote them cause this is a WoT as it is, but a few people are taking the angle of 'Sure it sucks but we don't like raiding so it's Good' (like Democracy is GOOD and anything else must be made illegal by the SC), or 'A taste of their own medicine'. Do me a favour and go twerk on a cactus with that crap. It contributes less than nothing and amounts to deliberately misunderstanding the circumstances of this event, and then posting a glib amount of thinly veiled stupid about it.

[CoraSpia]

Turning a game into a script writing competition is exactly what any game developer does NOT want.

The more advantage scripts give the more likley they are to be dealt with by:
1. System changes to render the advantages mute.
2. Rule changes to make the advantages violate the TOS.

Nationstates is generous in that it tends to prefer technical solutions(option 1) over "legal" solutions(option 2) when possible. The entire raiding "game" as it currently exists is the result of such a preference.

Reading Coraspia's response gave me the impression he doesn't even know what the hell is happening here except just to come in to comment.

Anyway, I guess the lesson here is about being extremely sure what you're using at the very least. While alll of us know ignorance of the rules isn't a proper defense, we should be more careful about stuff - I mean you wouldn't just carry a bag you did not pack over immigration and customs without asking what its contents are, ja?

I know exactly what's going on here and I think that both of the rules are wrong. Working with a DOS player to break the rules should, obviously, be against the rules however should not offer such a harsh punishment as this. Having a script which gives you an advantage should, however, not be against the rules as all it does is forces other people to make their own. If we're ever going to make it against the rules, everything should be handled extremely slowly on a case-by-case basis. Individuals such as 94 block who rarely if ever used the script should not be hurt by the actions of those that did: claiming that someone 'benefitted' from it will only lead to a precedent which requires regions to be unfarely punished for rules violations the majority of their members did not support.

[Ballotonia]

Tofuline and Tofulinearity were also big regions when their founder got DEATed and DOS, so should that guy not be DOSed because of the region?

Sounds like ripe for abuse for me. I don't get why everyone is trying to validate rule-breaking for founders, when I think Vandoosa doesn't think that way.

It means any region could be killed in the future except the Pacifics and the founderless regions.

Do not confuse between a nation (which just happens to be the founder of a region) getting deleted for rulebreaking by its owner, and a region getting emptied by Moderation for egregious structural rulebreaking going on within said region and/or the organization it represents/belongs to.

Also: game-created regions are not immune to punishments such as these. There may not be a founder, but everything else applies equally.

I'm almost certain this won't matter, but I'll ask anyway to be on the safe side. My region was tag raided in its early days. We won't feel any effects of this, will we?

Edit: Also, my old region was legitimately invaded, but three natives remain and all of the invaders were expelled. Will anything happen to the region?

Regions invaded in the past are not affected by this ruling. If they were still held, they have been / will be released back to the natives prior to the invasion. If need be file a GHR.

Ballotonia

[Bears Armed]

The rules on working with dos players are still really unclear though. Apparently it's not against the rules to have a military conflict on II with one, but it is to get a script you didn't know was illegal from one?

The rules already said not to use scripts unless you knew that they were legal.Therefore nobody should have been using a script whose legality they hadn't actually confirmed properly, whatever its source.
Not "Don't use scripts that you know are illegal", but "Only use scripts that you know are legal".
Is that really too difficult a concept?

[CoraSpia]

The rules on working with dos players are still really unclear though. Apparently it's not against the rules to have a military conflict on II with one, but it is to get a script you didn't know was illegal from one?

The rules already said not to use scripts unless you knew that they were legal.Therefore nobody should have been using a script whose legality they hadn't actually confirmed properly, whatever its source.
Not "Don't use scripts that you know are illegal", but "Only use scripts that you know are legal".
Is that really too difficult a concept?

Are you telling me that everybody's recruitment script prior to mass tg recruitment became a game feature went to a mod for checking first?

[Eluvatar]

Having a script which gives you an advantage should, however, not be against the rules as all it does is forces other people to make their own. If we're ever going to make it against the rules, everything should be handled extremely slowly on a case-by-case basis.

Script Rules

This rule describes how you may use automated tools (e.g. scripts, macros, and browser add-ons) to interact with the regular NationStates website. (The NationStates API has its own rules.)

It is acceptable to use a tool that merely modifies how pages look to you. For example, a script that adds particular buttons in your browser when viewing other people's nation pages is fine. Similarly, any kind of information-gathering script is acceptable, subject to the rate limits below.

...

API

NationStates offers an API, which provides a faster, more efficient interface for many scripts. It is governed by its own rules; these Script Rules do not apply to any API request. The main reason you would not want to use the API is that it currently doesn't offer a good way to do things as a logged-in nation: it is mainly a way to collect data, not execute actions.

User Agent

You must set your script's UserAgent to something informative, such as the URL of your site. This allows us to contact you if something goes wrong with your script.

Rate Limits

Scripts must send no more than 10 requests per minute.

Scripts are completely banned on the forum (http://forum.nationstates.net).

If you wish to use a script to gather information from NationStates, consider the official API, rather than scraping raw HTML pages. If there's data you can only get from the HTML, we will probably add it to the API if you ask. The API is able to handle scripts more efficiently and has much higher rate limits (currently 10X as high).

...

Script Authors

It is illegal to distribute a tool that breaks game rules when used in its primary, default, or intended manner.
...

We have clear rules against certain kinds of scripts. The nature of the rate limit rule is that if no one followed it, the site could find it difficult to function.

Furthermore, in this case, the script was bypassing the API and using html scraping instead because the information it was looking for was available through the API only with a 28 second delay to limit the advantage scripts could grant. Predator was evading that limitation to give an advantage at least potentially superior to that which could be offered by legal scripts.

[Jakker]

Halcones was not admitted to the raider hall of fame. Gest was, though.

Right, thanks. Couldn't remember.

This is something that the committee will discuss when the time comes.

[Plagentine]

I was ready to get deleted or possibly swept, but the WA ban has really caught me off guard. Still, at the end of the day judgement has been passed and while the punishment were somewhat extreme, i see them as being just and proper. I am surprised that people are comparing using Pred pre and post Halc's DoS, considering that Reppy already noted somewhere that Halcones' being DoS doesn't influence Pred's legality, since it was made far before that. Now, using the tool after he updated when instant issues were brought on is a different thing, and i can safely say that by the time that came around i've already not used the tool for a few weeks. But it doesn't matter too much now, i guess

While my usage of the tool in the past year was very minimal, i did use it quite a lot in my black rider days, so i can understand why my punishment was at the level it was. I'm sorry to the defenders that had to figh the unfair fight, and i feel like shit knowing that most of my tag raids have perished. I also feel like shit because all the sleepers i've made over the past few months and all the work i've put into potential future operations has also been nullified, but such is life. Though this is far from the end for me, and i'll keep on raiding no matter what it takes as long as i can get some fun out of this. I look forward to seeing you fendas on the battlefield once my WA ban goes away, though i suppose that with tag raiding i will be seeing you much sooner than that.

Thanks to the NS staff for exposing that Predator was in fact illegal, and thanks for handing out the proper punishment. I'm sure that, even though this has hit the raider sphere hard, we will adapt and prevail as always. It is in our nature to endure, prevail, and devour, after all.

[Kyorgia]

Funny how much invaders seem to care about regions being destroyed or are now founderless when they're the ones being hurt (for once there's actually a good justification for a region being destroyed)

The problem is not that DEN was deleted at least not in my opinion but the fact that regions that had nothing to do with DEN other than having den somewhere in their names was deleted as well. At this point its werid that the regions of Sweden and Denmark still exists.

Those regions used a tool every update that gave them an unfair advantage over everyone else who plays the game as it was designed, regardless of whether you 'know it's illegal' that should be raising flags in a big way. I don't believe that any of those involved didn't question the legality of it, they just either chose not to investigate or they turned a blind eye because it was benefitting them so who cares about the rules.

The advantage gained from predator was really nothing, new tools have been no more than 1 second less accurate than Predator. So claiming that predator had an unfair advantage is wrong. Defenders will just have to realize that the tool did not have such an impact and that its not predators fault for the decline in defenderism.