Length of Residency Tracker

by **[violet]** » Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:04 pm

Gandoor wrote:This is very minor, but why is this nation stated as having been in the region for 1075.47 days and one of my puppet nations, Freedenea, listed as 1075.48. Yes, it's very minor and practically nothing, but since this nation founded the region I'm in, shouldn't it be #1 for residency, instead of #2? Or am I just misunderstanding how this is calculated.

You actually both have the same value. The old data is basic and only knows who was where on certain days. Eluvatar may be able to refine this.

by **Almonaster Nuevo** » Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:05 pm

[violet] wrote:
Almonaster Nuevo wrote:In the Canada data, I'm showing up as 2015-11-26. I can assure you I've been there a lot longer than that.

Where are you seeing that? You are at 2,562 days on the chart.

Sorry [violet], I was replying to Elu's post. I should have quoted him.

http://udl.taijitu.org/tenure_index/?canada

by **Bruination** » Thu Mar 03, 2016 7:01 pm

This post is just to see if I understand how the new Residency score works, so bear with me:

I keep records of all national comings and goings for my region, Forest, and I'm noticing the new Residency ordering seems to be very similar to the previous Length of Residency ordering, in that nations that have CTE'd or departed and then return have their score reset to 0 and are counted as the newest resident. I'm guessing, then, that the only difference is that nations that depart and return before any updates have occurred are not reset to 0 and not treated as the newest resident as they used to be. Is this correct?

The evidence I'm looking at is residents that have CTE'd or departed and then returned a few days later have scores only counting back to their latest return dates. An example: long-time resident, Karock, was the 2nd nation to ever joined Forest in 2006, but CTE'd for 2 days in January 2016, so has a score of only 54.

In contrast: Several nations briefly departed during Z4 to help out other regions, but their scores don't refer to their return date. Mozworld, as an example, has a score of 1,138, referring to the date they initially joined the region in January, 2013, ranking them 12th in the region instead of the 65th that they would be ranked right now under the old system.

member · by **Eluvatar** » Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:41 pm

Almonaster Nuevo wrote:Elu, there seem to be some gaps...

In the Canada data, I'm showing up as 2015-11-26. I can assure you I've been there a lot longer than that.

Ishmiel is also a long-term resident.

EDITs: Added Ishmiel, @Elu tag.

In 2015-11-24-regions-xml.gz Almonaster Nuevo is 46th in the list of nations in Canada, between 7o and devil_heart. In 2015-11-25-regions-xml.gz, they are last. To me that clearly indicates that on November 25th, Almonaster Nuevo left the region, however briefly. Has certainly been there since November 26th.

The feedback I've seen, overall, has been favoring this being a statistic of time since last, not first, arrival. Certainly it would be impractical to do first arrival as the statistic going forward.

Bruination wrote:This post is just to see if I understand how the new Residency score works, so bear with me:

I keep records of all national comings and goings for my region, Forest, and I'm noticing the new Residency ordering seems to be very similar to the previous Length of Residency ordering, in that nations that have CTE'd or departed and then return have their score reset to 0 and are counted as the newest resident. I'm guessing, then, that the only difference is that nations that depart and return before any updates have occurred are not reset to 0 and not treated as the newest resident as they used to be. Is this correct?

The evidence I'm looking at is residents that have CTE'd or departed and then returned a few days later have scores only counting back to their latest return dates. An example: long-time resident, Karock, was the 2nd nation to ever joined Forest in 2006, but CTE'd for 2 days in January 2016, so has a score of only 54.

In contrast: Several nations briefly departed during Z4 to help out other regions, but their scores don't refer to their return date. Mozworld, as an example, has a score of 1,138, referring to the date they initially joined the region in January, 2013, ranking them 12th in the region instead of the 65th that they would be ranked right now under the old system.

These are among discrepancies I intend to help correct. Unless of course a decision is made not to correct them. My data handles mozworld differently.

Finally, for anyone like BenevolentThomas who wanted the regional residents immediately available when moving to a region, I have made a variant of the userscript with jQuery embedded into it that should work on Chrome. The original works with Greasemonkey, but Chrome does not allow referring to external javascript (jQuery). Note: installing it is slightly tricky, as Chrome doesn't like http://udl.taijitu.org (perhaps because it's not https). One goes to the URL, downloads it, then goes to chrome://extensions/ and drags-and-drops the file. Yes this is a smelly way to install software. If there's demand, I can look into improving the install experience for Chrome

by **The lepearchauns** » Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:54 pm

Eluvatar wrote:For clarity's sake, my script's output can be reviewed here. It show the earliest date belonging to an xml dump that could represent continuous residence. Note: on October 21st, 2013, and possibly at other times, there were some irregularities with the daily dumps that I haven't accounted for (yet).

[violet]'s program uses some additional sources of information to differentiate between many of the nations that have been present in their regions since 2010.

I have a little more work to do to help [violet] repair some discrepancies where one or the other program is in error.

In the meanwhile, seeking to help Benevolent Thomas regain some missing functionality (and perhaps get a little more) I've thrown together a simple userscript that adds a link to the regional delegate and iteratively adds the list of nations in residence order to the Change Region (arrival) page.

Same thing as Nuevo. Your script shows my main as resident of South Pacific since 2012. That nation has never moved or CTEd since its founding in march 2008.

The actual reason why I looked up the thread is that the NS residency demographic seems to be bugged in a similar way where multiple nations in my region are showing the same exact date (to the decimal on Feb 10th 2009) arrival and the number appears incorrect for both nations (again, my main has been stationary since 2008 and the other nation involved was considered old guard when I started)

EDIT: I need to read entire threads before butting in

I guess its a known problem with lack of data dumps. We really need to get better about archiving in this digital world

member · by **Eluvatar** » Fri Mar 04, 2016 1:39 am

The lepearchauns wrote:
Eluvatar wrote:For clarity's sake, my script's output can be reviewed here. It show the earliest date belonging to an xml dump that could represent continuous residence. Note: on October 21st, 2013, and possibly at other times, there were some irregularities with the daily dumps that I haven't accounted for (yet).

[violet]'s program uses some additional sources of information to differentiate between many of the nations that have been present in their regions since 2010.

I have a little more work to do to help [violet] repair some discrepancies where one or the other program is in error.

In the meanwhile, seeking to help Benevolent Thomas regain some missing functionality (and perhaps get a little more) I've thrown together a simple userscript that adds a link to the regional delegate and iteratively adds the list of nations in residence order to the Change Region (arrival) page.

Same thing as Nuevo. Your script shows my main as resident of South Pacific since 2012. That nation has never moved or CTEd since its founding in march 2008.

The actual reason why I looked up the thread is that the NS residency demographic seems to be bugged in a similar way where multiple nations in my region are showing the same exact date (to the decimal on Feb 10th 2009) arrival and the number appears incorrect for both nations (again, my main has been stationary since 2008 and the other nation involved was considered old guard when I started)

EDIT: I need to read entire threads before butting in I guess its a known problem with lack of data dumps. We really need to get better about archiving in this digital world

So, actually, I apparently do have my own copies of the data dumps from June 23rd to July 29th 2012. I'll add them in to my data pool and see if that helps.

I've uploaded them, along with the June 2010 dump, to http://test.taijitu.org/

by **Goddess Relief Office** » Fri Mar 04, 2016 4:29 am

Replying to OP:

I'll prefer "length of residency in region since last move". As a founder, the length of residency is tremendously important because we use that to keep track of new nations and send them follow up telegrams to check how they are doing after the initial auto-welcome.

The "total length" is less useful since you can more or less tell who are the older nations.

~GRO~

by **Almonaster Nuevo** » Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:27 am

Eluvatar wrote:The feedback I've seen, overall, has been favoring this being a statistic of time since last, not first, arrival. Certainly it would be impractical to do first arrival as the statistic going forward.

I still don't think residence should be reset by a quick trip to post somewhere which doesn't allow foreign RMB posting, or to assist allies with Zombies, etc.

I've already discussed the CTE situation, and I think it can be handled. In short, unless you update in a new region, your entry date for your home region should be preserved. That version of the measure serves both GRO's purposes and the more intuitive meaning of length of residence.

If you really must use latest entry, would it be beyond reason to track both the recent arrivals (which could also be found from the regional happenings), possibly for display on the admin page, and the overall length of residence (for trophy purposes)?

by **Benevolent Thomas** » Fri Mar 04, 2016 9:37 am

Almonaster Nuevo wrote:I still don't think residence should be reset by a quick trip to post somewhere which doesn't allow foreign RMB posting, or to assist allies with Zombies, etc.

I've already discussed the CTE situation, and I think it can be handled. In short, unless you update in a new region, your entry date for your home region should be preserved. That version of the measure serves both GRO's purposes and the more intuitive meaning of length of residence.

I agree with this. The only problem I think is that data dumps only occur after major update, so really it would only recognize that a nation has left the region (for residency length purposes) during a major update. Of course, I don't think that's too much of an issue.

member · by **Eluvatar** » Fri Mar 04, 2016 10:40 am

Eluvatar wrote:
The lepearchauns wrote:Same thing as Nuevo. Your script shows my main as resident of South Pacific since 2012. That nation has never moved or CTEd since its founding in march 2008.

The actual reason why I looked up the thread is that the NS residency demographic seems to be bugged in a similar way where multiple nations in my region are showing the same exact date (to the decimal on Feb 10th 2009) arrival and the number appears incorrect for both nations (again, my main has been stationary since 2008 and the other nation involved was considered old guard when I started)

EDIT: I need to read entire threads before butting in I guess its a known problem with lack of data dumps. We really need to get better about archiving in this digital world

So, actually, I apparently do have my own copies of the data dumps from June 23rd to July 29th 2012. I'll add them in to my data pool and see if that helps.

I've uploaded them, along with the June 2010 dump, to http://test.taijitu.org/

With the added data, my program now indicates you have been resident in South Pacific since July 8, 2012. Looking closer, I have the below difference for South Pacific between the 7th and 8th:

South Pacific	trevorisimo					South Pacific	trevorisimo
dorig								dorig
ambiorix							ambiorix
maputo								maputo
yatl_rasc							yatl_rasc
bautizar							bautizar
noxious_air							noxious_air
west_kondor							west_kondor
paladinsanity							paladinsanity
rfidia								rfidia
the_wine_conspiracy						the_wine_conspiracy
densaner							densaner
shirazalla							shirazalla
empirestan							empirestan
pleasestaysafeop						pleasestaysafeop
dalkiro								dalkiro
the_lepearchauns					      <
american_border_collie						american_border_collie
cadens_statu_mortis						cadens_statu_mortis
schturigstein							schturigstein
resapilta							resapilta
sontiano							sontiano
united_warlords							united_warlords
lhosotria							lhosotria
lingang								lingang
new_zedland							new_zedland
weirdness							weirdness
science_order							science_order
laoch								laoch
federated_provinces						federated_provinces
saxe_coburg_and_gotha						saxe_coburg_and_gotha
atomic_holocaust						atomic_holocaust
nyat								nyat
burgasta							burgasta
matthewia							matthewia
the_insanity_of_jorj						the_insanity_of_jorj
516								516
							      >	the_lepearchauns

As you say, it's the same situation as with Almonaster Nuevo. The Lepearchauns disappears from the middle of the list and appears at the end, indicating a departure and return. This was the residency order before that was disabled on Monday:

South Pacific	dorig
noxious_air
paladinsanity
the_lepearchauns
pv
drumun
karpax
chanis
bulios
zealay
larchy
zemyata
keromal
tilmana
organath
ornithol
huntonya
lingang
stormwind
guadalupador
austranesia
frederiksborg
rostrum
batalan
kyal
austronesia
densaner
kvatchdom
greater_eastern_prussia
mashed_sea_cucumbers
galior
nyanza
valloria
siorapaluk
loungia
prussian_russia
tanoa_island
drones_4u
lyusantia
phocidaea
ambiorix
vulix
kaurea
windswept_niue
lefwania
maputo
eqthela
mikkel
ma-bok-lang
kuwaria
sandy_randy
keckalonian_empire
anglo-philippines
space_odditty
socialist_european_korea
chickenmack
livana
ainsley_land
chrysin
the_empire_of_azorius
julhakhistan
the_republic_of_griffin
the_archipelago_of_the_bearlanders
gurifonnokokka
auxha

You are listed between paladinsanity and pv, just as in the data my script generates. The active listing has:

A significantly different ordering.

I understand you prefer being the longest resident to being the fourth longest resident. Almonaster Nuevo prefers being earlier in the list, too.

Benevolent Thomas agrees with you, for unstated reasons. (Hint hint, I'd really appreciate it if he stated some

)

Unless a solid case is made for why this approach should be adopted, I'd be inclined to support hewing as close to the old residency ordering as possible, counting residency from the most recent arrival regardless of whether the nation had been resident before that. I would also suggest that if we ignore brief departures in the past, we should also ignore them in the future, otherwise this census field will be inconsistent.

by **Almonaster Nuevo** » Fri Mar 04, 2016 4:52 pm

I think a case would need to be made the other way, but in any case...

1) All the other badges represent the accumulated position over you national history, not the most recent relevant decision.
2) Other region-related stats (influence, endorsements) are preserved across short absences.
3) As far as I know, the previous ordering system worked largely that way.
4) Long-term residents generally like to be seen as such. Having a system which "penalised" them for a short move would restrict mobility.

The only specific point I have spotted in favour of the last-entry approach was GRO's concern about spotting newcomers. If they are new to the region, they will still show up, as will anyone who stayed over elsewhere.

member · by **Eluvatar** » Fri Mar 04, 2016 7:37 pm

Almonaster Nuevo wrote:I think a case would need to be made the other way, but in any case...

I usually subscribe to the view that the onus of proof is on those proposing a change to the status quo ante.

by **Almonaster Nuevo** » Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:46 pm

Eluvatar wrote:
Almonaster Nuevo wrote:I think a case would need to be made the other way, but in any case...

I usually subscribe to the view that the onus of proof is on those proposing a change to the status quo ante.

We're already changing the SQA, it's a question of which change. I think my variant is closer to the effect of the original.

member · by **Eluvatar** » Sat Mar 05, 2016 9:00 am

Almonaster Nuevo wrote:I think my variant is closer to the effect of the original.

No, that's not the case. The original list was:

Compare my working result. As far as I can see, mine only differs from that list in that it alphabetizes those nations for which it can't find a whole day's difference in arrival time instead of ordering them correctly (that's just not implemented yet). Both my script (which tracks the most recent arrival as the relevant date, regardless of previous residence) and that onsite list have Almonaster Nuevo as the 99th longest resident.

by **Almonaster Nuevo** » Sat Mar 05, 2016 11:39 am

All that shows me is

I've made my case. It seems you've made your mind up, so this conversation is pointless.

by **Benevolent Thomas** » Sat Mar 05, 2016 12:29 pm

Eluvatar wrote:Benevolent Thomas agrees with you, for unstated reasons. (Hint hint, I'd really appreciate it if he stated some )

Tracking overall residency would help defenders make a determinance of perceived "nativeness" of a nation in a region. I'd rather see that Joe Six Pack has been in a region for 6+ years, leaving occasionally to post on a friendly RMB or support a friendly delegate, as the longest resident than Momma Grizzly that has been in the region for two days, not having left once.

member · by **Eluvatar** » Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:51 pm

Almonaster Nuevo wrote:All that shows me is (Image)

I've made my case. It seems you've made your mind up, so this conversation is pointless.

Do you perchance have javascript disabled?

In our last few posts we've been discussing what was the Status Quo Ante, as regards my position that the 'default' would be to track the most recent arrival to a region.

Even were the final decision mine, I would be interested in feedback one way or the other. Just because I believe the burden of proof, such as it is, would be on the side of changing the ordering, that does not mean I am certain it should not be changed.

member · by **Eluvatar** » Tue Mar 15, 2016 5:21 am

I am still interested in feedback.

by **Flanderlion** » Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:03 pm

Eluvatar wrote:I am still interested in feedback.

Ideally it's have the time lengths people had spent in each region somewhere on a hidden page (and count when a region has been refounded as the same region) and the actual stat would be the amount of days in someone had spent in their current region (even if I had spent years in region A, then moved to region B it would start from zero. If I moved back it'd just ignore the time I'd been gone or the time I'd CTEd)

Then again, that option would probably be the most annoying to work code and data tracking wise.

I thought the feature was finished earlier though, and apart from the random increases in residency in some issues, it seems to be working fine.

by **Bernie Sandwiches** » Wed Mar 16, 2016 2:24 pm

how does your residency drop when you haven't moved? Mine dropped really low recently, and to be honest, its a bit comical

by **[violet]** » Wed Mar 16, 2016 4:56 pm

Bernie Sandwiches wrote:how does your residency drop when you haven't moved? Mine dropped really low recently, and to be honest, its a bit comical

Thanks for the report! This bug was affecting new nations who never moved regions. Should fix itself over the next 12 hours.

Length of Residency Tracker

PROBLEM

Who is online