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Internationalist Bastard
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Founded: Aug 09, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Internationalist Bastard » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:48 pm

"As she washes the war crimes out of her khakis" :lol2: I love this site sometimes
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Nanatsu no Tsuki
Post-Apocalypse Survivor
 
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Founded: Feb 10, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:49 pm

Soldati senza confini wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Image




Wow. And I bet the chances of that happening are slim to none.



That deal with gangs like Mara Salvatrucha (MS13) is pretty bad, maje. And those members who get deported back to ES from the US just go back even more violent.


:rofl:

Yea, the whole thing is not gonna happen. The neo-liberal party of El Salvador (ARENA) holds a plurality in the legislative assembly with 35 members and the FMLN (which is the communist party of El Salvador) only holds 31, this is out of 84 elected representatives. Not looking well for any reform any time soon.


And I imagine ARENA is ultra conservative or ultra-religious.

Well, the problem is cops get bribed too, and the police force is woefully inadequate to deal with gangsters who are both wily and dangerous. They are the true rulers of the country, as opposed to the political class who only passes laws but don't do shit. My dad says that will eventually change, but my honest prediction is I'll be able to go back to my country in peace only when I am much older and all these bastards down there can't hurt anyone anymore and gangsters see a burnout in ranks.


Corruption in law enforcement, sadly, is ''el pan nuestro de cada dia'' in Latin America. Not that it isn't a thing anywhere else, mind you, but it is a way of life in Latin America. I recall visiting Mexicali and being told not to talk to police there. And if I got in trouble, to ask for my friend's family living there to come and help because police corruption. They have to get money to meet quotas set by their superiors. It's pretty bad.
≽^•⩊•^≼Bidh a h-uile dad a tha agus a bha, a sguir a bhith…-
Ye furry factbook. ≽^•⩊•^≼

Also: THERNSY!!
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Immoren
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Immoren » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:51 pm

https://vine.co/v/ea0OwvPTx9l

Internationalist Bastard wrote:"As she washes the war crimes out of her khakis" :lol2: I love this site sometimes


I need some khakis clearly.
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discoursedrome wrote:everyone knows that quote, "I know not what weapons World War Three will be fought, but World War Four will be fought with sticks and stones," but in a way it's optimistic and inspiring because it suggests that even after destroying civilization and returning to the stone age we'll still be sufficiently globalized and bellicose to have another world war right then and there

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Kiruri
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Founded: Dec 26, 2010
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Kiruri » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:51 pm

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Kiruri wrote:If it's any consolation, at least there are a ton worse hells out there :)


The problem with that line of thinking is that it really changes nothing, Uri. Yes, there are plenty of hellholes out there and some are probably worse off than ES is. However, at the end of the day, El Salvador is still a shithole and this matters to Lito because, hey, it is his birth country.

I didn't imply there would be any changing going on, Ña. :p
And I was sorta half joking anyway. I am aware why it matters to Soldi, heck if it were my home country I know it would matter to me as well.

On a more serious note, perhaps going back one day in order to bring about some level change could be a way of giving back to your native community. People have done so, quite successfully I may add, in other significantly worse off places such as Mogadishu, Haiti, Kinshasa, Rwanda, etc. :) That's probably better consolation.
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Liberonscien
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Founded: Sep 26, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Liberonscien » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:52 pm

Kannap wrote:
Liberonscien wrote:I finally got the sound to work on Windows 10.

The last thing I need to do is get my wired mouse to work.

What's up TET?


That may be the last thing you need to do. However, the first thing you should have done was click "no" when your computer asked you if you wanted to install Windows 9 10

Someone installed it on my computer against my will.
I knew Windows 10 was crap.
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Soldati Senza Confini
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Founded: Mar 11, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:53 pm

Kiruri wrote:
Soldati senza confini wrote:You know, whenever I think of my home country, I am just glad that, if I have any children, they won't have to live in the current hell that country is at the moment.

If it's any consolation, at least there are a ton worse hells out there :)


True, but this is like saying "at least you're eating unlike those poor kids in Africa dying of starvation" when you see someone only eating black beans and rice.

This might sound selfish, but I don't give a fuck about the people down in Africa dying of starvation (even though I feel for them), they don't affect my life in any way whatsoever. :p
Last edited by Soldati Senza Confini on Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Soldati senza confini: Better than an iPod in shuffle more with 20,000 songs.
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.

"When it’s a choice of putting food on the table, or thinking about your morals, it’s easier to say you’d think about your morals, but only if you’ve never faced that decision." - Anastasia Richardson

Current Goal: Flesh out nation factbook.

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Nanatsu no Tsuki
Post-Apocalypse Survivor
 
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Founded: Feb 10, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:53 pm

Kiruri wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
The problem with that line of thinking is that it really changes nothing, Uri. Yes, there are plenty of hellholes out there and some are probably worse off than ES is. However, at the end of the day, El Salvador is still a shithole and this matters to Lito because, hey, it is his birth country.

I didn't imply there would be any changing going on, Ña. :p
And I was sorta half joking anyway. I am aware why it matters to Soldi, heck if it were my home country I know it would matter to me as well.

On a more serious note, perhaps going back one day in order to bring about some level change could be a way of giving back to your native community. People have done so, quite successfully I may add, in other significantly worse off places such as Mogadishu, Haiti, Kinshasa, Rwanda, etc. :) That's probably better consolation.


Uri, I know you meant well and weren't implying anything. I'm just saying that no matter how fucked up other places are, ES will still matter more to Lito because it was his birth country. Like, I live in the US, but I am always paying attention to what happens back home. ;)
≽^•⩊•^≼Bidh a h-uile dad a tha agus a bha, a sguir a bhith…-
Ye furry factbook. ≽^•⩊•^≼

Also: THERNSY!!
֍Help save transgender people's lives֍Help for feral cats
Cat with internet access||Is maith an t-earra an tsíocháin.||No TGs
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Internationalist Bastard
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Founded: Aug 09, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Internationalist Bastard » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:55 pm

Soldati senza confini wrote:
Kiruri wrote:If it's any consolation, at least there are a ton worse hells out there :)


True, but this is like saying "at least you're eating unlike those poor kids in Africa dying of starvation" when you see someone only eating black beans and rice.

This might sound selfish, but I don't give a fuck about the people down in Africa dying of starvation (even though I feel for them), they don't affect my life in any way whatsoever. :p

:(
Call me Alex, I insist
I am a girl, damnit
Slut Pride. So like, real talk, I’m a porn actress. We’re not all bimbos. I do not give out my information or videos to avoid conflict with site policy. I’m happy to talk about the industry or my thoughts on the career but I will not be showing you any goodies. Sorry
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Kiruri
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Founded: Dec 26, 2010
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Kiruri » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:56 pm

Soldati senza confini wrote:
Kiruri wrote:If it's any consolation, at least there are a ton worse hells out there :)


True, but this is like saying "at least you're eating unlike those poor kids in Africa dying of starvation" when you see someone only eating black beans and rice.

This might sound selfish, but I don't give a fuck about the people down in Africa dying of starvation (even though I feel for them), they don't affect my life in any way whatsoever. :p

Nah, that's okay. :lol: I generally give no fucks about people around me 'cus they're not me, so why care, right?
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Soldati Senza Confini
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Founded: Mar 11, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:57 pm

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Soldati senza confini wrote:
:rofl:

Yea, the whole thing is not gonna happen. The neo-liberal party of El Salvador (ARENA) holds a plurality in the legislative assembly with 35 members and the FMLN (which is the communist party of El Salvador) only holds 31, this is out of 84 elected representatives. Not looking well for any reform any time soon.


And I imagine ARENA is ultra conservative or ultra-religious.

Well, the problem is cops get bribed too, and the police force is woefully inadequate to deal with gangsters who are both wily and dangerous. They are the true rulers of the country, as opposed to the political class who only passes laws but don't do shit. My dad says that will eventually change, but my honest prediction is I'll be able to go back to my country in peace only when I am much older and all these bastards down there can't hurt anyone anymore and gangsters see a burnout in ranks.


Corruption in law enforcement, sadly, is ''el pan nuestro de cada dia'' in Latin America. Not that it isn't a thing anywhere else, mind you, but it is a way of life in Latin America. I recall visiting Mexicali and being told not to talk to police there. And if I got in trouble, to ask for my friend's family living there to come and help because police corruption. They have to get money to meet quotas set by their superiors. It's pretty bad.


ARENA would be kind of like what the Republican party has become with the religious right wing and Libertarian wannabes, yes: Ultra-Religious, Ultra-Capitalistic twats.

Indeed, it is. In Mexico and El Salvador, which are the only places I can talk about, corruption is a thing, a widespread thing. There's no legal recourse for people down in those two countries, especially if you are working class like the majority of people.
Soldati senza confini: Better than an iPod in shuffle more with 20,000 songs.
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.

"When it’s a choice of putting food on the table, or thinking about your morals, it’s easier to say you’d think about your morals, but only if you’ve never faced that decision." - Anastasia Richardson

Current Goal: Flesh out nation factbook.

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Kiruri
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Founded: Dec 26, 2010
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Kiruri » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:58 pm

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Kiruri wrote:I didn't imply there would be any changing going on, Ña. :p
And I was sorta half joking anyway. I am aware why it matters to Soldi, heck if it were my home country I know it would matter to me as well.

On a more serious note, perhaps going back one day in order to bring about some level change could be a way of giving back to your native community. People have done so, quite successfully I may add, in other significantly worse off places such as Mogadishu, Haiti, Kinshasa, Rwanda, etc. :) That's probably better consolation.


Uri, I know you meant well and weren't implying anything. I'm just saying that no matter how fucked up other places are, ES will still matter more to Lito because it was his birth country. Like, I live in the US, but I am always paying attention to what happens back home. ;)

Of that I am aware, yes. Hehe.
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Nanatsu no Tsuki
Post-Apocalypse Survivor
 
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Founded: Feb 10, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Wed Jan 27, 2016 2:01 pm

Soldati senza confini wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
And I imagine ARENA is ultra conservative or ultra-religious.



Corruption in law enforcement, sadly, is ''el pan nuestro de cada dia'' in Latin America. Not that it isn't a thing anywhere else, mind you, but it is a way of life in Latin America. I recall visiting Mexicali and being told not to talk to police there. And if I got in trouble, to ask for my friend's family living there to come and help because police corruption. They have to get money to meet quotas set by their superiors. It's pretty bad.


ARENA would be kind of like what the Republican party has become with the religious right wing and Libertarian wannabes, yes: Ultra-Religious, Ultra-Capitalistic twats.

Indeed, it is. In Mexico and El Salvador, which are the only places I can talk about, corruption is a thing, a widespread thing. There's no legal recourse for people down in those two countries, especially if you are working class like the majority of people.


It would be great if they could get rid of the maras entirely, though. That would be one less issue to worry about. Have there ever been any initiatives to stamp out corruption in law enforcement? Or at least make it a rarity rather than the norm?
≽^•⩊•^≼Bidh a h-uile dad a tha agus a bha, a sguir a bhith…-
Ye furry factbook. ≽^•⩊•^≼

Also: THERNSY!!
֍Help save transgender people's lives֍Help for feral cats
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Soldati Senza Confini
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Founded: Mar 11, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Wed Jan 27, 2016 2:01 pm

Kiruri wrote:
Soldati senza confini wrote:
True, but this is like saying "at least you're eating unlike those poor kids in Africa dying of starvation" when you see someone only eating black beans and rice.

This might sound selfish, but I don't give a fuck about the people down in Africa dying of starvation (even though I feel for them), they don't affect my life in any way whatsoever. :p

Nah, that's okay. :lol: I generally give no fucks about people around me 'cus they're not me, so why care, right?


That's not necessarily my point.

My point is, I care about what happens in Arkansas, Spain, and Costa Rica because of you and Nana for instance. I care what happens to my friends and family. I care about my home country because that's where I was born and spent half my life in. I couldn't care less about some random child in Africa even though I acknowledge the issue because, well, I am not there; I am not part of their culture, and I have no friends down in fucking Africa.
Soldati senza confini: Better than an iPod in shuffle more with 20,000 songs.
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.

"When it’s a choice of putting food on the table, or thinking about your morals, it’s easier to say you’d think about your morals, but only if you’ve never faced that decision." - Anastasia Richardson

Current Goal: Flesh out nation factbook.

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Internationalist Bastard
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Founded: Aug 09, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Internationalist Bastard » Wed Jan 27, 2016 2:02 pm

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Soldati senza confini wrote:
ARENA would be kind of like what the Republican party has become with the religious right wing and Libertarian wannabes, yes: Ultra-Religious, Ultra-Capitalistic twats.

Indeed, it is. In Mexico and El Salvador, which are the only places I can talk about, corruption is a thing, a widespread thing. There's no legal recourse for people down in those two countries, especially if you are working class like the majority of people.


It would be great if they could get rid of the maras entirely, though. That would be one less issue to worry about. Have there ever been any initiatives to stamp out corruption in law enforcement? Or at least make it a rarity rather than the norm?

I know the UNs been shouting for a while about it but,..well...
Call me Alex, I insist
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Nanatsu no Tsuki
Post-Apocalypse Survivor
 
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Founded: Feb 10, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Wed Jan 27, 2016 2:03 pm

Internationalist Bastard wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
It would be great if they could get rid of the maras entirely, though. That would be one less issue to worry about. Have there ever been any initiatives to stamp out corruption in law enforcement? Or at least make it a rarity rather than the norm?

I know the UNs been shouting for a while about it but,..well...


Yeah, but as an outside organization, I don't think the UN can do much regarding this issue, other than ask for it to be resolved or addressed.
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Hurdegaryp
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Postby Hurdegaryp » Wed Jan 27, 2016 2:03 pm

Kannap wrote:Gosh, with the difficulty of having to request an absentee ballot, I am beginning to think the state of North Carolina doesn't want me to vote.

Maybe they're on to you and are therefore taking measures to neutralize you, politically speaking.
CVT Temp wrote:I mean, we can actually create a mathematical definition for evolution in terms of the evolutionary algorithm and then write code to deal with abstract instances of evolution, which basically equates to mathematical proof that evolution works. All that remains is to show that biological systems replicate in such a way as to satisfy the minimal criteria required for evolution to apply to them, something which has already been adequately shown time and again. At this point, we've pretty much proven that not only can evolution happen, it pretty much must happen since it's basically impossible to prevent it from happening.

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Soldati Senza Confini
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Founded: Mar 11, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Wed Jan 27, 2016 2:04 pm

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Soldati senza confini wrote:
ARENA would be kind of like what the Republican party has become with the religious right wing and Libertarian wannabes, yes: Ultra-Religious, Ultra-Capitalistic twats.

Indeed, it is. In Mexico and El Salvador, which are the only places I can talk about, corruption is a thing, a widespread thing. There's no legal recourse for people down in those two countries, especially if you are working class like the majority of people.


It would be great if they could get rid of the maras entirely, though. That would be one less issue to worry about. Have there ever been any initiatives to stamp out corruption in law enforcement? Or at least make it a rarity rather than the norm?


Well, there were "mano dura" initiatives back in the 2000s and they have classified gangs as a terrorist organization, but that hasn't helped.

The only other resort would be martial law to make a quick and effective dent; but that's not gonna happen after the junta period. So what's left is vigilante justice known as the Death Squads that roam the countryside and cities.
Soldati senza confini: Better than an iPod in shuffle more with 20,000 songs.
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.

"When it’s a choice of putting food on the table, or thinking about your morals, it’s easier to say you’d think about your morals, but only if you’ve never faced that decision." - Anastasia Richardson

Current Goal: Flesh out nation factbook.

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Nanatsu no Tsuki
Post-Apocalypse Survivor
 
Posts: 215156
Founded: Feb 10, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Wed Jan 27, 2016 2:04 pm

Soldati senza confini wrote:
Kiruri wrote:Nah, that's okay. :lol: I generally give no fucks about people around me 'cus they're not me, so why care, right?


That's not necessarily my point.

My point is, I care about what happens in Arkansas, Spain, and Costa Rica because of you and Nana for instance. I care what happens to my friends and family. I care about my home country because that's where I was born and spent half my life in. I couldn't care less about some random child in Africa even though I acknowledge the issue because, well, I am not there; I am not part of their culture, and I have no friends down in fucking Africa.


Perhaps this was all a misunderstanding. Don't fight, majada. :hug:
≽^•⩊•^≼Bidh a h-uile dad a tha agus a bha, a sguir a bhith…-
Ye furry factbook. ≽^•⩊•^≼

Also: THERNSY!!
֍Help save transgender people's lives֍Help for feral cats
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Soldati Senza Confini
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Founded: Mar 11, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Wed Jan 27, 2016 2:04 pm

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Soldati senza confini wrote:
That's not necessarily my point.

My point is, I care about what happens in Arkansas, Spain, and Costa Rica because of you and Nana for instance. I care what happens to my friends and family. I care about my home country because that's where I was born and spent half my life in. I couldn't care less about some random child in Africa even though I acknowledge the issue because, well, I am not there; I am not part of their culture, and I have no friends down in fucking Africa.


Perhaps this was all a misunderstanding. Don't fight, majada. :hug:


:hug:
Soldati senza confini: Better than an iPod in shuffle more with 20,000 songs.
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.

"When it’s a choice of putting food on the table, or thinking about your morals, it’s easier to say you’d think about your morals, but only if you’ve never faced that decision." - Anastasia Richardson

Current Goal: Flesh out nation factbook.

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Kiruri
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Founded: Dec 26, 2010
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Kiruri » Wed Jan 27, 2016 2:05 pm

Soldati senza confini wrote:
Kiruri wrote:Nah, that's okay. :lol: I generally give no fucks about people around me 'cus they're not me, so why care, right?


That's not necessarily my point.

My point is, I care about what happens in Arkansas, Spain, and Costa Rica because of you and Nana for instance. I care what happens to my friends and family. I care about my home country because that's where I was born and spent half my life in. I couldn't care less about some random child in Africa even though I acknowledge the issue because, well, I am not there; I am not part of their culture, and I have no friends down in fucking Africa.

I see.

:) I was actually being serious with my comment which was in reference to me.
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Internationalist Bastard
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Founded: Aug 09, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Internationalist Bastard » Wed Jan 27, 2016 2:05 pm

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Internationalist Bastard wrote:I know the UNs been shouting for a while about it but,..well...


Yeah, but as an outside organization, I don't think the UN can do much regarding this issue, other than ask for it to be resolved or addressed.

In theory, direct interventions possible, but there's enough red tape to make Congress blush
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Slut Pride. So like, real talk, I’m a porn actress. We’re not all bimbos. I do not give out my information or videos to avoid conflict with site policy. I’m happy to talk about the industry or my thoughts on the career but I will not be showing you any goodies. Sorry
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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Founded: Feb 10, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Wed Jan 27, 2016 2:05 pm

Soldati senza confini wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
It would be great if they could get rid of the maras entirely, though. That would be one less issue to worry about. Have there ever been any initiatives to stamp out corruption in law enforcement? Or at least make it a rarity rather than the norm?


Well, there were "mano dura" initiatives back in the 2000s and they have classified gangs as a terrorist organization, but that hasn't helped.

The only other resort would be martial law to make a quick and effective dent; but that's not gonna happen after the junta period. So what's left is vigilante justice known as the Death Squads that roam the countryside and cities.


I thought there was a period of martial law enforced in ES back in 2012 because of the increase in massacres. I may have misunderstood the MS13 documentary I was watching, however.
≽^•⩊•^≼Bidh a h-uile dad a tha agus a bha, a sguir a bhith…-
Ye furry factbook. ≽^•⩊•^≼

Also: THERNSY!!
֍Help save transgender people's lives֍Help for feral cats
Cat with internet access||Is maith an t-earra an tsíocháin.||No TGs
RIP: Dyakovo & Ashmoria

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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Posts: 215156
Founded: Feb 10, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Wed Jan 27, 2016 2:07 pm

Internationalist Bastard wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Yeah, but as an outside organization, I don't think the UN can do much regarding this issue, other than ask for it to be resolved or addressed.

In theory, direct interventions possible, but there's enough red tape to make Congress blush


In the case of the maras and how they affect the US too, perhaps intervention is more plausible but, ES is a sovereign country and UN intervention, US intervention, may not be seen as kosher... I don't know.
≽^•⩊•^≼Bidh a h-uile dad a tha agus a bha, a sguir a bhith…-
Ye furry factbook. ≽^•⩊•^≼

Also: THERNSY!!
֍Help save transgender people's lives֍Help for feral cats
Cat with internet access||Is maith an t-earra an tsíocháin.||No TGs
RIP: Dyakovo & Ashmoria

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Kiruri
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Founded: Dec 26, 2010
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Kiruri » Wed Jan 27, 2016 2:07 pm

Hurdegaryp wrote:
Kannap wrote:Gosh, with the difficulty of having to request an absentee ballot, I am beginning to think the state of North Carolina doesn't want me to vote.

Maybe they're on to you and are therefore taking measures to neutralize you, politically speaking.

Of what significant importance, politically speaking, is KanKan?
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Hurdegaryp
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Ex-Nation

Postby Hurdegaryp » Wed Jan 27, 2016 2:07 pm

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Soldati senza confini wrote:
Well, there were "mano dura" initiatives back in the 2000s and they have classified gangs as a terrorist organization, but that hasn't helped.

The only other resort would be martial law to make a quick and effective dent; but that's not gonna happen after the junta period. So what's left is vigilante justice known as the Death Squads that roam the countryside and cities.

I thought there was a period of martial law enforced in ES back in 2012 because of the increase in massacres. I may have misunderstood the MS13 documentary I was watching, however.

What we need is a combat gas that literally takes the fight out of people. You know, something that goes straight to the brain and sabotage the impulse to inflict violence upon others.
CVT Temp wrote:I mean, we can actually create a mathematical definition for evolution in terms of the evolutionary algorithm and then write code to deal with abstract instances of evolution, which basically equates to mathematical proof that evolution works. All that remains is to show that biological systems replicate in such a way as to satisfy the minimal criteria required for evolution to apply to them, something which has already been adequately shown time and again. At this point, we've pretty much proven that not only can evolution happen, it pretty much must happen since it's basically impossible to prevent it from happening.

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