So-Called American "Democracy"

[Soviet Catalonia]

Can Someone Please Get to the Point:

If America is a Democracy, howcome they invade countries because they Democratically elect left-wing governments?!

[The Qeiiam Star Cluster]

Caps lock is not the cruise control for cool.

[Brickistan]

Can Someone Please Get to the Point:

If America is a Democracy, howcome they invade countries because they Democratically elect left-wing governments?!

This has already been answered multiple times.

Being a democracy does not mean that you cannot start wars.

[Forsher]

Can Someone Please Get to the Point:

If America is a Democracy, howcome they invade countries because they Democratically elect left-wing governments?!

Imagine, for instance, that you live in a country which has 100 people in it. 99 of these people believe that it is just and right to assassinate Barack Obama and will dispatch an elite unit who are 98% likely to succeed in their mission. This nation's final decision, to give this black op the go ahead, rests with a single person... let us call them the Ruler. We will assume that every single person is of voting age and enrolled.

Now, imagine that the Ruler is chosen by lot. There is a 99% chance that this country will send some secret wet works squad out to kill Obama. This is democratic. The rule of this nation is from the people... even if we find this particular expression of the democratic idea a little strange.

What if the nation is a representative democracy? Assume that the one person who doesn't think that Obama should be assassinated is standing against five others and the subject of assassinating Obama is a big political issue. What's the outcome here? It is extremely unlikely that they are not going to be sending that force out to kill a lizard-man.

Trouble is we've got a direct democracy. The political issue of the day is still Obama's assassination. What will happen? 100% chance that they dispatch those people.

These are three different forms of democracy (representative -- via election and lot -- and direct) and in all of them the smart money is that Obama dies. This is the main reason why there isn't a connection between democracy and foreign policy. What matters isn't how the leaders are chosen (say that one person is the most elite member of the wet works team and launches a successful one man coup to save Obama's life) but rather what they want. With a democracy, what you generally assume is that the elected leaders are offering policies and decisions (i.e. what they want) that are in line with what the populace wants (there's the link between foreign policy and democracy). To some extent, the purpose of an electoral system is to ensure that there is the smallest possible gap between the population and the decisions made in its name,

tl;dr -- you have something approaching interesting if, and only if, the people making the decisions to take down these governments have no mandate whatsoever... and that isn't as simple as above.

[Sperland]

Can Someone Please Get to the Point:

If America is a Democracy, howcome they invade countries because they Democratically elect left-wing governments?!

This has already been answered multiple times.

Being a democracy does not mean that you cannot start wars.

Being a democracy means listening to other peoples views. They don't listen to other countries views on what the world should be like. They have NO Right Whatsoever to invade another country. What happened to war is not the answer? They say they want peace but they are creating violence. Only God has the right to start wars. But I doubt he would want one. So how is America domocratic if they don't listen to other people? Another thing, politicians always lie so they can be elected, then after they are elected they don't do what they say. How is that democratic? If that is what democracy is then I hate democracy.

[Soviet Catalonia]

This has already been answered multiple times.

Being a democracy does not mean that you cannot start wars.

Being a democracy means listening to other peoples views. They don't listen to other countries views on what the world should be like. They have NO Right Whatsoever to invade another country. What happened to war is not the answer? They say they want peace but they are creating violence. Only God has the right to start wars. But I doubt he would want one. So how is America domocratic if they don't listen to other people? Another thing, politicians always lie so they can be elected, then after they are elected they don't do what they say. How is that democratic? If that is what democracy is then I hate democracy.

Well said.

It's almost as if they like starting wars.

Iraq, for example. They lied about that so they could get their oil back, etc.

^{LONG LIVE DEMOCRACY! LONG LIVE CUBA! VIVA FIDEL! LONG LIVE PALESTINE! LONG LIVE DEMOCRACY!}

[Forsher]

Can Someone Please Get to the Point:

If America is a Democracy, howcome they invade countries because they Democratically elect left-wing governments?!

This has already been answered multiple times.

Being a democracy does not mean that you cannot start wars.

I would argue that it has been explained exactly twice. What SC is interested in is why/how.

This has already been answered multiple times.

Being a democracy does not mean that you cannot start wars.

Being a democracy means listening to other peoples views. They don't listen to other countries views on what the world should be like. They have NO Right Whatsoever to invade another country. What happened to war is not the answer? They say they want peace but they are creating violence. Only God has the right to start wars. But I doubt he would want one. So how is America domocratic if they don't listen to other people? Another thing, politicians always lie so they can be elected, then after they are elected they don't do what they say. How is that democratic? If that is what democracy is then I hate democracy.

God must love killing, He does it all the time.

Some character on some programme. He catches baddies, or something.

Democracy is generally understood to mean "the people's rule". Consider that famous phrase, "The Queen reigns but she does not rule". This is often tied up with, generally inextricably because the pro-democratic are often inclined to agree with, self-determination (which is the real ideological principle that means you ask someone if they want to be invaded) but they are merely related concepts. In some sense, which I meant to say last time around, democracy is amoral.

[Brickistan]

This has already been answered multiple times.

Being a democracy does not mean that you cannot start wars.

Being a democracy means listening to other peoples views. They don't listen to other countries views on what the world should be like. They have NO Right Whatsoever to invade another country. What happened to war is not the answer? They say they want peace but they are creating violence. Only God has the right to start wars. But I doubt he would want one. So how is America domocratic if they don't listen to other people? Another thing, politicians always lie so they can be elected, then after they are elected they don't do what they say. How is that democratic? If that is what democracy is then I hate democracy.

No, it doesn't. It means listening to your own citizens.

The particular problem that the US has is that Washington is deeply corrupt and that Gerrymandering and apathism has turned elections meaningless. The government is no longer answerable to the people, but to Wall Street. It's no longer a democracy, it's a plutocracy with a dangerous undercurrent of theocracy.

Again, being a democracy does not preclude you from going to war. In the case of the US however, it does make them rather hypocritical, practicing do-as-we-say-don't-do-as-we-do politics and justifying it by claiming that they're the greatest thing since sliced bread. For the rest of the world, expressions as the "shining city on the hill" and "the beacon of liberty and freedom" does sound very hollow indeed.

[Brickistan]

Being a democracy means listening to other peoples views. They don't listen to other countries views on what the world should be like. They have NO Right Whatsoever to invade another country. What happened to war is not the answer? They say they want peace but they are creating violence. Only God has the right to start wars. But I doubt he would want one. So how is America domocratic if they don't listen to other people? Another thing, politicians always lie so they can be elected, then after they are elected they don't do what they say. How is that democratic? If that is what democracy is then I hate democracy.

Well said.

It's almost as if they like starting wars.

Iraq, for example. They lied about that so they could get their oil back, etc.

^{LONG LIVE DEMOCRACY! LONG LIVE CUBA! VIVA FIDEL! LONG LIVE PALESTINE! LONG LIVE DEMOCRACY!}

Oh, but they do...

It keeps the military industrial complex rolling and it gives the people an external enemy they can hate. It's classic neocon politics, carried out on a worldwide scale.

To me, the big question isn't how the US can claim to be a democracy and still do such things. No, the big question is why the world continues to let them get away with it.

[Zoo Trouble]

It does not do what the majority want.

It is not "by the whole population, for example the Vietnam War when most of Americans were against the Government.

It is not a popular Government.

The US never claimed it was a direct democracy. According to your own definitions, the US would fall under a representative democracy.

Chile. President Salvador Allende was elected by the Chilean People - so a right-wing army, assisted by the CIA, who gave them guns and millions of dollars, shot him. Democratic?

Nicaragua. Daniel Ortega was elected, a left-wing president, and Reagan assisted the Contra's, fascist thugs who overthrew Ortega's government. Democracy?

Both these people were elected in a somewhat similar manner as politicians in the US are elected. Only certain people were allowed to vote, rather than everyone. Neither had the "majority" of people that could vote and the decisions they went on to make weren't that democratic either. By the way, Reagan wasn't a fascist and I don't think you know what fascism means.

Foreign policy of the US doesn't really have much to do with whether or not the US overthrew a few authoritarian socialists.

[Rangila]

Is the U.S.A. really a democracy?

This is the question I pose to you.

In my opinion, although it holds elections, it is not a real democracy.

The definiton of Democracy is:

a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.
"a system of parliamentary democracy"
synonyms: representative government, elective government, constitutional government, popular government; More
a state governed under a system of democracy.
plural noun: democracies
"a multiparty democracy"
control of an organization or group by the majority of its members.
"the intended extension of industrial democracy"


It does not do what the majority want.

It is not "by the whole population, for example the Vietnam War when most of Americans were against the Government.

It is not a popular Government.

Do you think a country that calls itself a democracy, and invades a country because the people ELECTED a government that is against what the US thinks, is really a democracy?

For example;

Chile. President Salvador Allende was elected by the Chilean People - so a right-wing army, assisted by the CIA, who gave them guns and millions of dollars, shot him. Democratic?

Nicaragua. Daniel Ortega was elected, a left-wing president, and Reagan assisted the Contra's, fascist thugs who overthrew Ortega's government. Democracy?

Grenada. Maurice Bishop, with support of the people, took control. So reagan invaded. Democratic?

So, is america a democracy?

It's a known fact that Salvador Allende killed himself. The contras never overthrew Ortega either.

[Korhal IVV]

No,the American government is a oligarchy hidden behind a mask.

Nope, its an oiligarchy.

[Zoo Trouble]

Being a democracy means listening to other peoples views. They don't listen to other countries views on what the world should be like. They have NO Right Whatsoever to invade another country. What happened to war is not the answer? They say they want peace but they are creating violence. Only God has the right to start wars. But I doubt he would want one. So how is America domocratic if they don't listen to other people? Another thing, politicians always lie so they can be elected, then after they are elected they don't do what they say. How is that democratic? If that is what democracy is then I hate democracy.

No, it doesn't. It means listening to your own citizens.

No lol. Democracy comes from the Greek term "demokratia," with "demos" meaning common people and "kratos" meaning rule/strength. There is nothing about whether or not the elected people actually need to listen to other peoples views or their citizens when elected. In other words, one needs to take responsibility in the masters/rulers they choose. If you chose someone that goes on to bomb some country back to the stone age, then that's on you for choosing them and falling for their BS. Choose better the next time you choose to subjugate your will to another.

[Brickistan]

No, it doesn't. It means listening to your own citizens.

No lol. Democracy comes from the Greek term "demokratia," with "demos" meaning common people and "kratos" meaning rule/strength. There is nothing about whether or not the elected people actually need to listen to other peoples views or their citizens when elected. In other words, one needs to take responsibility in the masters/rulers they choose. If you chose someone that goes on to bomb some country back to the stone age, then that's on you for choosing them and falling for their BS. Choose better the next time you choose to subjugate your will to another.

Well, yes and no...

Yes in that, in theory, you don't need to listen to anyone once you've gotten yourself elected. No in that failing to listen to those who elected you would mean not getting elected again.

However, that's actually quite besides the point. The original point was that the US, no matter how democratic (or not) it might be, should listen to people in other countries. They shouldn't - their responsibility is to their own country and their own voters.

That being said, a wise government would of course keep other countries in mind when formulating their politics. And, in theory, that's what we got the UN for. But for a variety of reasons, the US politicians care little for their own voters, and even less for the UN.
Hence why I said that the big question was why the rest of the world is willing to allow this to go on. The US has been destabilising the entire world for well over a decade by now, both by it's reckless greed and it's military expansionist policies.

Just imagine the US reaction if the 2008 crash had started in Russia or if Iran insisted on being allowed to fly drones over New York and fire missiles at suspected terrorists...


In any case, I actually do agree with you in the main. The US population has the government it has voted for, even if that vote is meaningless and the whole process deeply corrupted. And when voters actually did raise their voice - the Occupy movement - it was not only dealt with harshly by the establishment and media, but also ridiculed by the common american.

Funny how so many americans are all for the Second Amendment, yet fail entirely to do anything when the government has clearly become corrupt.

[Libreng]

Yes, the U.S. is a democracy.

To me, it's quite simple. If you are an adult citizen who has not committed a major crime -- you should be able to go to the polls (with an ID) and vote. That's what we have right now. Foreign policy doesn't determine a nation's political syste,.

[Republic of the Cristo]

Its a republic.

[Libreng]

Can Someone Please Get to the Point:

If America is a Democracy, howcome they invade countries because they Democratically elect left-wing governments?!

Because the domestic American government has public officials elected by the people -- the only qualifier for a democracy.

Look at it from another angle. The U.S. helped to defend democracy in Japan and South Korea. Though the implementation has failed, we attempted to introduce democracy to the totalitarian nations of Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm not saying America is perfect, but we've done a lot of democratic things. Stop being so stubborn with an "anti-American" mindset. Look at it case by case.

[The Sotoan Union]

Either understand that forms of government are modified to be more practical, or understand that no country ever was a "true" democracy.

[The Sons of Adam]

Nope, it is a federal constitutional representative republic. LEARN THE DIFFERENCE PEOPLE!

[Cyprusiana]

Being a democracy means listening to other peoples views. They don't listen to other countries views on what the world should be like. They have NO Right Whatsoever to invade another country. What happened to war is not the answer? They say they want peace but they are creating violence. Only God has the right to start wars. But I doubt he would want one. So how is America domocratic if they don't listen to other people? Another thing, politicians always lie so they can be elected, then after they are elected they don't do what they say. How is that democratic? If that is what democracy is then I hate democracy.

Well said.

It's almost as if they like starting wars.

Iraq, for example. They lied about that so they could get their oil back, etc.

^{LONG LIVE DEMOCRACY! LONG LIVE CUBA! VIVA FIDEL! LONG LIVE PALESTINE! LONG LIVE DEMOCRACY!}

Actually the US returned all oil fields taken in the invasion.

[Visegradian Poland]

Being a democracy means listening to other peoples views. They don't listen to other countries views on what the world should be like. They have NO Right Whatsoever to invade another country. What happened to war is not the answer? They say they want peace but they are creating violence. Only God has the right to start wars. But I doubt he would want one. So how is America domocratic if they don't listen to other people? Another thing, politicians always lie so they can be elected, then after they are elected they don't do what they say. How is that democratic? If that is what democracy is then I hate democracy.

Well said.

It's almost as if they like starting wars.

Iraq, for example. They lied about that so they could get their oil back, etc.

^{LONG LIVE DEMOCRACY! LONG LIVE CUBA! VIVA FIDEL! LONG LIVE PALESTINE! LONG LIVE DEMOCRACY!}

go home catalonia ur drunk asf
Is this a joke?

[Quokkastan]

Can Someone Please Get to the Point:

If America is a Democracy, howcome they invade countries because they Democratically elect left-wing governments?!

There's no rule that says democracies can't invade other democracies. Not even for stupid reasons.

Your entire point is predicated on a notion that is flat out false.

[Visegradian Poland]

Can Someone Please Get to the Point:

If America is a Democracy, howcome they invade countries because they Democratically elect left-wing governments?!

Because you don't get how wars work.
amirite? hi5 son

[The Sotoan Union]

Can Someone Please Get to the Point:

If America is a Democracy, howcome they invade countries because they Democratically elect left-wing governments?!

There's no rule that says democracies can't invade other democracies. Not even for stupid reasons.

Your entire point is predicated on a notion that is flat out false.

Well they couldn't in Civ 1 and 2, so maybe that's where it came from?

[Visegradian Poland]

There's no rule that says democracies can't invade other democracies. Not even for stupid reasons.

Your entire point is predicated on a notion that is flat out false.

Well they couldn't in Civ 1 and 2, so maybe that's where it came from?

Probably the source of his understaning of politics. Moved on to NS master race.