Islam/Muslim Discussion Thread

[Tafhan]

For anyone wondering, by "other Muslims", this guy means "Salafist fundamentalists". '

please. This guy was more fundamentalist than me. Any Muslim who didn't want to sell out for Quilliam's trust fund baby creed he labelled a "Salafist Fundementalist"or some kind of a radical

Uhh. I'm not sure thats fundamentalism. More really, really anti fundamentalism. Plus...you are a Salafist fundamentalist. It says so right on your fucking sig.

Plus. Pretty sure thats gheebah. Kek

[The State of Islam]

please. This guy was more fundamentalist than me. Any Muslim who didn't want to sell out for Quilliam's trust fund baby creed he labelled a "Salafist Fundementalist"or some kind of a radical

Uhh. I'm not sure thats fundamentalism. More really, really anti fundamentalism.

Plus. Pretty sure thats gheebah. Kek

Acting like you know what Ghibah is XD. If what I'm doing is Ghibah then so is calling Anjem Choudhary a Khabith. But it is fundamentalism, he can't tolerate ikhtilaf and labels all Mukhalifin as terrorist sympathisers in Red scare McCarthyist fashion

[Tafhan]

Uhh. I'm not sure thats fundamentalism. More really, really anti fundamentalism.

Plus. Pretty sure thats gheebah. Kek

Acting like you know what Ghibah is XD. If what I'm doing is Ghibah then so is calling Anjem Choudhary a Khabith. But it is fundamentalism, he can't tolerate ikhtilaf and labels all Mukhalifin as terrorist sympathisers in Red scare McCarthyist fashion

God. So fucking arrogant. I know what fucking Gheebah is. And to be fair, you are a fundamentalist. And you can't tolerate when muslims disagree with you either. As you call them all Kafr or guilty of Bid'ah. If I recall correctly. You did the same to me when I was sympathizing with the Mu'tazila. What is that besides not tolerating ikhtilaf? hypocrisy much?

If Muslims are sick of being seen as a threat. They should stop advocating for shariah in government and death for homosexuals, "fornicators", and other people they see as deviant.

[Mahdistan]

So a friend of a friend has been dating a Muslim girl for a few years...and he's an atheist. Her family is also quite religious, so for obvious reasons they need to keep it a secret, at least for the time being, since there's the risk that they'd disown her (and while unlikely, do something worse). However, from the sound of things, they really, really love one another and have apparently talked about getting married. I know it's generally accepted that a Muslim woman cannot marry a non-Muslim man, but I guess I'm wondering on your guys own opinion on the matter. I mean, it is a ludicrously misogynistic double standard and just downright dumb. And, as my friend's friend apparently said "If there was a god, I would hope he wouldn't be so petty to damn her because of my beliefs simply because I love her and she loves me. That we make each other happy. Don't you think that's something God would want?". Maybe I'm biased since I'm myself an atheist, but for me it's true. He's not trying to turn her into an atheist or anything like that and apparently they don't really discuss religious stuff a whole lot (for obvious reasons). Overall it's a tragic situation since I've known someone personally who went through the same situation while I was in high school though the guy in question was Christian rather than an atheist. While their relationship didn't last as long or anything like that, it had to end when the girl's family found out because they threatened to disown her if she kept seeing him. He was really torn up over it since he did love her and she loved him. Once again perhaps it's my own bias, but I could never respect a family that threatened to disown their own daughter simply because she loves a man with different religious beliefs or lacks any religious beliefs.

So yeah, what's your peeps view on these sorts of things?

Like Wolven League said, the reason for that was because in medieval society, the children were required to follow the father's religion. However, in a society where people can choose there own religion, it's less of a problem, though obviously many are not open to the idea still. A better response of the family on their part would have been to mediate a discussion between him and the girl on religion, in hopes of coming to a more sensible conclusion. Also, men are not permitted to marry anyone who follows a non-Abrahamic religion, so it's not just women who get the restriction, though their restriction is higher.

[Tafhan]

So a friend of a friend has been dating a Muslim girl for a few years...and he's an atheist. Her family is also quite religious, so for obvious reasons they need to keep it a secret, at least for the time being, since there's the risk that they'd disown her (and while unlikely, do something worse). However, from the sound of things, they really, really love one another and have apparently talked about getting married. I know it's generally accepted that a Muslim woman cannot marry a non-Muslim man, but I guess I'm wondering on your guys own opinion on the matter. I mean, it is a ludicrously misogynistic double standard and just downright dumb. And, as my friend's friend apparently said "If there was a god, I would hope he wouldn't be so petty to damn her because of my beliefs simply because I love her and she loves me. That we make each other happy. Don't you think that's something God would want?". Maybe I'm biased since I'm myself an atheist, but for me it's true. He's not trying to turn her into an atheist or anything like that and apparently they don't really discuss religious stuff a whole lot (for obvious reasons). Overall it's a tragic situation since I've known someone personally who went through the same situation while I was in high school though the guy in question was Christian rather than an atheist. While their relationship didn't last as long or anything like that, it had to end when the girl's family found out because they threatened to disown her if she kept seeing him. He was really torn up over it since he did love her and she loved him. Once again perhaps it's my own bias, but I could never respect a family that threatened to disown their own daughter simply because she loves a man with different religious beliefs or lacks any religious beliefs.

So yeah, what's your peeps view on these sorts of things?

Like Wolven League said, the reason for that was because in medieval society, the children were required to follow the father's religion. However, in a society where people can choose there own religion, it's less of a problem, though obviously many are not open to the idea still. A better response of the family on their part would have been to mediate a discussion between him and the girl on religion, in hopes of coming to a more sensible conclusion. Also, men are not permitted to marry anyone who follows a non-Abrahamic religion, so it's not just women who get the restriction, though their restriction is higher.

Don't you think that shows a massive flaw in Muslims today? That they blindly follow traditions and are practically incapable of integrating into a secular society that doesnt go by their traditions?

[Personal Freedom]

Are derivative faiths from Islam apostates?

[Mahdistan]

Like Wolven League said, the reason for that was because in medieval society, the children were required to follow the father's religion. However, in a society where people can choose there own religion, it's less of a problem, though obviously many are not open to the idea still. A better response of the family on their part would have been to mediate a discussion between him and the girl on religion, in hopes of coming to a more sensible conclusion. Also, men are not permitted to marry anyone who follows a non-Abrahamic religion, so it's not just women who get the restriction, though their restriction is higher.

Don't you think that shows a massive flaw in Muslims today? That they blindly follow traditions and are practically incapable of integrating into a secular society that doesnt go by their traditions?

These are a minority. I'm a Muslim and am condemning the family's position, so what does that make me?

Are derivative faiths from Islam apostates?

They would be regarded as such if Islam was their original faith. We take no concern with non-Muslims converting to derivatives of Islam, but we discourage Muslims from doing so.

[Trumpostan]

Don't you think that shows a massive flaw in Muslims today? That they blindly follow traditions and are practically incapable of integrating into a secular society that doesnt go by their traditions?

Huckabee? Santorum? Kim Davis? Or any of the other bible thumpers from God's Own Party?

[Tafhan]

Don't you think that shows a massive flaw in Muslims today? That they blindly follow traditions and are practically incapable of integrating into a secular society that doesnt go by their traditions?

Huckabee? Santorum? Kim Davis? Or any of the other bible thumpers from God's Own Party?

They don't exist anywhere near the same extent.

And even most Christian fundamentalists arent for outright killing gays, keeping women subservient and killing apostates.

[Tafhan]

How many Quranists, would anyone here estimate exist in the world?

[Mahdistan]

How many Quranists, would anyone here estimate exist in the world?

I've read about 2.5 million, but I don't know how current that number is. It's one of the faster-growing Islamic movements, and is especially popular in western countries and Nigeria.

[Napkiraly]

So a friend of a friend has been dating a Muslim girl for a few years...and he's an atheist. Her family is also quite religious, so for obvious reasons they need to keep it a secret, at least for the time being, since there's the risk that they'd disown her (and while unlikely, do something worse). However, from the sound of things, they really, really love one another and have apparently talked about getting married. I know it's generally accepted that a Muslim woman cannot marry a non-Muslim man, but I guess I'm wondering on your guys own opinion on the matter. I mean, it is a ludicrously misogynistic double standard and just downright dumb. And, as my friend's friend apparently said "If there was a god, I would hope he wouldn't be so petty to damn her because of my beliefs simply because I love her and she loves me. That we make each other happy. Don't you think that's something God would want?". Maybe I'm biased since I'm myself an atheist, but for me it's true. He's not trying to turn her into an atheist or anything like that and apparently they don't really discuss religious stuff a whole lot (for obvious reasons). Overall it's a tragic situation since I've known someone personally who went through the same situation while I was in high school though the guy in question was Christian rather than an atheist. While their relationship didn't last as long or anything like that, it had to end when the girl's family found out because they threatened to disown her if she kept seeing him. He was really torn up over it since he did love her and she loved him. Once again perhaps it's my own bias, but I could never respect a family that threatened to disown their own daughter simply because she loves a man with different religious beliefs or lacks any religious beliefs.

So yeah, what's your peeps view on these sorts of things?

To be fair, the reasoning behind banning Muslim women from getting into a relationship with non-Muslims was because the children would be the father's religion.

Obviously, that's not always the case anymore, and I myself don't see anything wrong with it.

Oh, I know why it was there. I should have been clearer and say how it's hypocritical, wrong, etc given today's society.

[Tafhan]

How many Quranists, would anyone here estimate exist in the world?

I've read about 2.5 million, but I don't know how current that number is. It's one of the faster-growing Islamic movements, and is especially popular in western countries and Nigeria.

Nigeria? Really? Huh. Well. That's interesting. 2.5 million isn't a lot compared to the rest of Islam. Lets see, around 0.1%

Ah well.

[Mahdistan]

I've read about 2.5 million, but I don't know how current that number is. It's one of the faster-growing Islamic movements, and is especially popular in western countries and Nigeria.

Nigeria? Really? Huh. Well. That's interesting. 2.5 million isn't a lot compared to the rest of Islam. Lets see, around 0.1%

Ah well.

Nigeria has one of the faster growing population due to that being one of the only places where Quranists have done missionary work. It also has a bit of popularity in Libya and Egypt, which are essentially where the movement was borne out of, and Muammar al-Gaddafi was rumored to have been a closet-Quranist as well. It is also, I think, the second-fastest growing movement in Islam, second only to Salafism, though its growth in Nigeria, where it had been growing the fastest, has been stalled due to Quranist-majority areas being occupied by Boko Haram.

[Novus America]

Nigeria? Really? Huh. Well. That's interesting. 2.5 million isn't a lot compared to the rest of Islam. Lets see, around 0.1%

Ah well.

Nigeria has one of the faster growing population due to that being one of the only places where Quranists have done missionary work. It also has a bit of popularity in Libya and Egypt, which are essentially where the movement was borne out of, and Muammar al-Gaddafi was rumored to have been a closet-Quranist as well. It is also, I think, the second-fastest growing movement in Islam, second only to Salafism, though its growth in Nigeria, where it had been growing the fastest, has been stalled due to Quranist-majority areas being occupied by Boko Haram.

Hopefully a Quranist reformation can save Islam. Islam is in many ways going through something similar to Christianity in the reformation. Unfortunately the reformation also resulted in relgious wars that ended in the most horrible war Europe would see until WWII some 300 years later.

But Islam is not the exact same. History does not actually repeat exactly. But similarities occur. Reformation for Judaism and Christianity only came after horrors so shocking they had to change.

Hopefully Islam can reform more peacefully. But the historical precedence does not bode well.

[Tafhan]

Nigeria has one of the faster growing population due to that being one of the only places where Quranists have done missionary work. It also has a bit of popularity in Libya and Egypt, which are essentially where the movement was borne out of, and Muammar al-Gaddafi was rumored to have been a closet-Quranist as well. It is also, I think, the second-fastest growing movement in Islam, second only to Salafism, though its growth in Nigeria, where it had been growing the fastest, has been stalled due to Quranist-majority areas being occupied by Boko Haram.

Hopefully a Quranist reformation can save Islam. Islam is in many ways going through something similar to Christianity in the reformation. Unfortunately the reformation also resulted in relgious wars that ended in the most horrible war Europe would see until WWII some 300 years later.

But Islam is not the exact same. History does not actually repeat exactly. But similarities occur. Reformation for Judaism and Christianity only came after horrors so shocking they had to change.

Hopefully Islam can reform more peacefully. But the historical precedence does not bode well.

I just hope it keeps contained.

But muslims are generally too jerkwater and overly traditional to give up their precious (albeit so infuriatingly obviously sham) Hadith traditions.

[Socialist Czechia]

Nigeria has one of the faster growing population due to that being one of the only places where Quranists have done missionary work. It also has a bit of popularity in Libya and Egypt, which are essentially where the movement was borne out of, and Muammar al-Gaddafi was rumored to have been a closet-Quranist as well. It is also, I think, the second-fastest growing movement in Islam, second only to Salafism, though its growth in Nigeria, where it had been growing the fastest, has been stalled due to Quranist-majority areas being occupied by Boko Haram.

Hopefully a Quranist reformation can save Islam. Islam is in many ways going through something similar to Christianity in the reformation. Unfortunately the reformation also resulted in relgious wars that ended in the most horrible war Europe would see until WWII some 300 years later.

But Islam is not the exact same. History does not actually repeat exactly. But similarities occur. Reformation for Judaism and Christianity only came after horrors so shocking they had to change.

Hopefully Islam can reform more peacefully. But the historical precedence does not bode well.

I am afraid islam version of Thirty Years War already started.

It's horrific, considering fact, that my country was devastated in this conflict so much: 50% of population dissapeared, most of the towns more or less destroyed. And that was 17th century, with 17th century weapons.

Now imagine Thirty Years War all the way from Morocco to Indonesia, with 21st century weaponry.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Can most Muslims in the world accept religion's reduction from importance from the public sphere to the private sphere? Do most Muslims think that law trumps God's word?

If not, "moderate" Islam has no place in western, and modern day society.

You can literally replace those with "Christian" and "moderate Christianity" and it remains spot-on accurate.

[Tafhan]

Hopefully a Quranist reformation can save Islam. Islam is in many ways going through something similar to Christianity in the reformation. Unfortunately the reformation also resulted in relgious wars that ended in the most horrible war Europe would see until WWII some 300 years later.

But Islam is not the exact same. History does not actually repeat exactly. But similarities occur. Reformation for Judaism and Christianity only came after horrors so shocking they had to change.

Hopefully Islam can reform more peacefully. But the historical precedence does not bode well.

I am afraid islam version of Thirty Years War already started.

It's horrific, considering fact, that my country was devastated in this conflict so much: 50% of population dissapeared, most of the towns more or less destroyed. And that was 17th century, with 17th century weapons.

Now imagine Thirty Years War all the way from Morocco to Indonesia, with 21st century weaponry.

Yeah but it's not all or even most governments of Islamic-populated areas. It's mostly a war of Clerics and paramilitary organizations. Still no shortage of death.

[Tafhan]

Can most Muslims in the world accept religion's reduction from importance from the public sphere to the private sphere? Do most Muslims think that law trumps God's word?

If not, "moderate" Islam has no place in western, and modern day society.

You can literally replace those with "Christian" and "moderate Christianity" and it remains spot-on accurate.

Not really since 40% of christians aren't okay with Religious law being the law of the land. Or leaving the faith being punishable by death. Or straight up death for homosexuals.

[Tafhan]

reading Jochistan's posts got me like
-snip-

It would probably be wise to spoiler that.

And I assure you, on a generally pro western, secular, and (in the religious threads) moderate site, your posts advocating Shari'ah Theocracy, destruction of modern values and Islamic Fundamentalism ( as in you being openly Wahhabi) are hated by a much wider audience. As are you.

[Murovanka]

Don't you think that shows a massive flaw in Muslims today? That they blindly follow traditions and are practically incapable of integrating into a secular society that doesnt go by their traditions?

Incapable of reducing the importance of religion from state policy to within ones walls. And all we do is appease and even support the most extreme groups, while whitewashing their image.

Can most Muslims in the world accept religion's reduction from importance from the public sphere to the private sphere? Do most Muslims think that law trumps God's word?

If not, "moderate" Islam has no place in western, and modern day society.

You can literally replace those with "Christian" and "moderate Christianity" and it remains spot-on accurate.

Your point being? It's true, and it's also true that most Christians are happy to with their secular, tolerant laws where their religion is all but absent. In Britain now you have Sharia courts and we have underground Sharia courts in Germany- perfect example of how Muslims cannot accept the reduction of the importance of religion and how this so-called "religious freedom" ends up destroying the rights of others, particularly women.

In Germany refugees are imposing their own ideology in the camps, which is absolutely ridiculous. There was a report of a homosexual who was hoping that in Germany he wouldn't have to hide his sexuality: he was met with rocks from his fellow refugees. Add to that the daily sexual abuse of women, and it's clear that Merkel has made a massive mistake- even in Germany can we not protect the vulnerable from harm on its own soil. We should've only accepted women, children, sexual minorities and democratic/human rights activists (and other related ones). The men can be deported; at least there they have a chance of being hit by US bombs.

[Socialist Czechia]

I am afraid islam version of Thirty Years War already started.

It's horrific, considering fact, that my country was devastated in this conflict so much: 50% of population dissapeared, most of the towns more or less destroyed. And that was 17th century, with 17th century weapons.

Now imagine Thirty Years War all the way from Morocco to Indonesia, with 21st century weaponry.

Yeah but it's not all or even most governments of Islamic-populated areas. It's mostly a war of Clerics and paramilitary organizations. Still no shortage of death.

Thirty Years War was also mostly limited to Holy Roman Empire-area and not all Christian countries joined either side directly.
In addition, it had few different stages/phases.

We can say, perhaps, that Thirty Years Muslim War is now in Syrian-Iraqi phase, with fightings in Nigeria, Libya and other countries as well.
There can be easily Turkish-Caucasus phase or North Africa phase then.

Destabilized Pakistan is still worst option, though, since any Afghani-Pakistani phase would probably resulted in nuclear warheads in hands of extremists.

I saw few articles about how it's just matter of time before the first Nuclear terrorist attack.

[Tafhan]

Yeah but it's not all or even most governments of Islamic-populated areas. It's mostly a war of Clerics and paramilitary organizations. Still no shortage of death.

Thirty Years War was also mostly limited to Holy Roman Empire-area and not all Christian countries joined either side directly.
In addition, it had few different stages/phases.

We can say, perhaps, that Thirty Years Muslim War is now in Syrian-Iraqi phase, with fightings in Nigeria, Libya and other countries as well.
There can be easily Turkish-Caucasus phase or North Africa phase then.

Destabilized Pakistan is still worst option, though, since any Afghani-Pakistani phase would probably resulted in nuclear warheads in hands of extremists.

I saw few articles about how it's just matter of time before the first Nuclear terrorist attack.

So basically we're screwed because most Muslims aren't willing to give up their horrible traditions.

[Socialist Czechia]

Thirty Years War was also mostly limited to Holy Roman Empire-area and not all Christian countries joined either side directly.
In addition, it had few different stages/phases.

We can say, perhaps, that Thirty Years Muslim War is now in Syrian-Iraqi phase, with fightings in Nigeria, Libya and other countries as well.
There can be easily Turkish-Caucasus phase or North Africa phase then.

Destabilized Pakistan is still worst option, though, since any Afghani-Pakistani phase would probably resulted in nuclear warheads in hands of extremists.

I saw few articles about how it's just matter of time before the first Nuclear terrorist attack.

So basically we're screwed because most Muslims aren't willing to give up their horrible traditions.

It's hard for many of them to accept basic fact, that culture related to islam and islamic concept of god is not superior above others. That it doesn't contain higher morals. That islam doesn't have to cover the world to make it a better place.

They literally need own Thirty Years War to realize that a little, finally, same as Christians.
Sunni-shia-alawite-wahhabite-salafist-whatever total world war.