The Confederate Flag: Is It Really Heritage?

[Purpelia]

I'd say it's about both. Different things to different people and all that. But I'd also say this. Those of you who claim its only about racism are effectively saying that the racists are right to appropriate them and thus are in fact legitimizing its use as a racist symbol. So if for every actual racist there are 10 people claiming it's racist all 11 of you are on the same side arguing the same thing. Congratulations.

PS. This forum really needs a slow condescending clap smiley.

[Scandinavian Nations]

What if one of your relatives kicked puppies?

I've killed two puppies and five kittens, two with a means I won't use again, the rest with an axe. Needed to get some litters, but got more than we needed.

If you see that as the epitome of evil, you're approaching morals with a fairly narrow dynamic range...

[Ifreann]

It would need to be a successful revolution, which the Civil War definitely was not.

we will never know what they really meant because it was just thrown in as a one liner;

That's not what a one-liner is.

but on its face there is no reason to read successful into it

It is absurd to suggest that a failed revolution could constitute a legal secession.

[Infected Mushroom]

we will never know what they really meant because it was just thrown in as a one liner;

That's not what a one-liner is.

but on its face there is no reason to read successful into it

It is absurd to suggest that a failed revolution could constitute a legal secession.

The idea is that the legal secession preceded the revolution. The revolution would follow the secession (ex military action supported by the public), not bring the secession into existence.

[Purpelia]

You guys don't get it. What he is saying is that it's only legal if you win. Because that's how the law works apparently.

[The Greater Holy Roman Empire III]

I get insulted whenever I see the USSR flag but you don't see me wanting to burn it. Let people wave the flag around as long as they don't hit somebody with the flag pole.

exactly

[Shan Yue]

I'd say it's about both. Different things to different people and all that. But I'd also say this. Those of you who claim its only about racism are effectively saying that the racists are right to appropriate them and thus are in fact legitimizing its use as a racist symbol. So if for every actual racist there are 10 people claiming it's racist all 11 of you are on the same side arguing the same thing. Congratulations.

PS. This forum really needs a slow condescending clap smiley.

This, and yes a golf clap emogee would be grand.

[Pelorania]

Oh, it's heritage alright. A heritage of hate.

This. ^

[Ykrovjnge Krjvwic]

No, they fought for the slave owners. Maybe someone told them they were fighting for freedom, maybe they even believed it, but that's not really why they were fighting.

Interpret history how you will.

I'd rather interpret history how it was. Like it or not, the confederacy was ultimately fighting for their *cough cough* "way of life," a.k.a: slavery. That's not an interpretation - and nevertheless, it still isn't something to look back on with pride.

[Ifreann]

What if one of your relatives kicked puppies?

I've killed two puppies and five kittens, two with a means I won't use again, the rest with an axe. Needed to get some litters, but got more than we needed.

If you see that as the epitome of evil...

Don't know where you got that idea.

---

That's not what a one-liner is.

It is absurd to suggest that a failed revolution could constitute a legal secession.

The idea is that the legal secession preceded the revolution. The revolution would follow the secession (ex military action supported by the public), not bring the secession into existence.

I know that's the idea. The Supreme Court rejected that idea.

---

You guys don't get it. What he is saying is that it's only legal if you win. Because that's how the law works apparently.

Well, yeah. If the Confederacy had won the war the clearly the matter of whether they had actually seceded would be settled.

[Infected Mushroom]

The idea is that the legal secession preceded the revolution. The revolution would follow the secession (ex military action supported by the public), not bring the secession into existence.

I know that's the idea. The Supreme Court rejected that idea.

They did so on an unprincipled basis; as such I consider the decision incorrect

[Ifreann]

I know that's the idea. The Supreme Court rejected that idea.

They did so on an unprincipled basis;

Exactly what is unprincipled about it? And further, what does that have to do with anything?

as such I consider the decision incorrect

Oh please, you consider the decision incorrect because you like the Confederacy. You've said on several occasions that that's how you think judges should operate, and how you would operate were you a judge. Make a decision first, then invent a legal justification for it.

[The balkens]

Its the flag of a traitorous region and people that had horrific plans in mind should they had won.

But is it some rednecks right to fly it? sure, gives me a warning of what breed of dumbass im dealing with.

[USS Monitor]

(Image)

I was watching this video yesterday, and it really opened up my mind about the possibility of the confederate flag being more than just a symbol of hate used by neonazis and the KKK.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XW9ljPPo9ok

Growing up in the south, I have been a witness of this flag being flown in numerous occasions, and of course I viewed it as a sense of history and some form of hate. I cannot stand it when people say "The South Will Rise Again", but of course that's just their way of simply stating that they are ignorant southerners. My biological father had a tattoo of the confederate flag on his shoulder, and I always wondered what the flag meant behind the bars and stars. I looked up the meaning and the only thing I remember was of course the 13 stars representing the original colonies and the red representing the blood of Jesus Christ.

The way I heard it is that it was 13 stars for the 13 states the CSA wanted -- the 11 they actually had plus Kentucky and Missouri.

Personally, I was raised southern baptist, and I have been stained with the faith in which I was forced into and suffered abuse because of the fact that I was not what my father had hoped for, a straight cisgender Christian man. I turned out to be an Atheist pansexual transgender woman.
So my view on southern baptism and the confederate flag were scared for a very long time, especially southern baptism and the entire Christian religion to this very day (and religion in general).

I have listened to the arguments about whether or not the confederate flag is heritage or hate, and I have heard that it is just heritage being in Georgia for now 9 years.

So I ask the question, is the confederate flag really heritage, or is it just another symbol of hatred and bigotry. Please watch the video if you are just going to label it as hate.

Thanks everyone ^^

I'm sorry you were raised Southern Baptist. I know that might sound snarky, but I'm sure it genuinely was a difficult experience, and I am sorry that it caused you suffering.

[Merala]

It is undeniable heritage, but the meaning is set by those who make it, those who are under it, and those who see it.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Its an eternal symbol of states' rights; it also pays tribute to the honour and valor of the southern soldiers.

Why do people insist on this fallacy about states' rights? The main factor of the CIvil War was about slavery. And that piece of cloth pays tribute to no one. It's just a reminder of a rather racist and inhuman past.

[The 502nd SS]

To some its a heritage of hate and slavery, and to others its state rights and because their ancestor fought under it.

For me its the latter, but I don't fly it. I don't either is wrong and y'all need to acknowledge that.

[Ethoniaa]

Well, the civil war started for a variety of issues, the main issue was slavery, but not just for slavery.
Also, in some cases it can be for heritage but not everyone in the south supported the confederacy. Also, the north or the Union was not none racist, both sides were pretty racist. Its just there was never a need for slaves in the northern economy.

Indeed. The vast majority of southerners fought to defend their homes.

Yes, men fought for many reasons. For example General Robert E. Lee only left the Union for the confederacy due to his home being I Virginia, he was far more loyal to his state than he was for his country.

East TN almost become the state of Franklin after TN succeeds from te Union, you see, west and middle TN is dominated by flat land and plenty of farms were present, but the Appalachian Mts are very present in East TN, so there was no need for slaves as large farms weren't very prevalent.

You also have men who were defending their way of life or their lively hood, after the removal of slaves from the equation, farmers all over the U.S. had trouble keeping out of debt until farming machinery became cheaper to buy.

So the Confederate flag should represent the act of rebellion, refusal to submit just as the "Don't tread on me" flag would. The Southerners thought process was different then the Northerners, just as the West coast and the East coast of the U.S. today.

See growing up where I did and seeing the confederate flag mean nothing to me other then being a piece of history, I was a little confuse when I first heard of people looking at the flag and seeing it as a racist symbol, I mean it's not like the Confederates were the equivalent of the Nazis, many slave owners treated their slaves well, but it was also common for slave owners to treat their slaves harshly.

[Risottia]

So I ask the question, is the confederate flag really heritage, or is it just another symbol of hatred and bigotry. Please watch the video if you are just going to label it as hate.

I call false dichotomy between heritage and hate.
It is a symbol of hatred and bigotry which has been passed down as heritage. Doesn't make it any less of an heritage, doesn't make it any less hateful.

[Scanzian Freehold]

Okay, having had to suffer through eleven years of living in rural Virgina, after spending nearly my whole childhood up in the Northwest, I can say beyond any shadow of a doubt that that bloody flag is a badge and license for intolerance and pseudo-1860 mentality, and has nothing to do with "heritage." Yeah, the video is a nice piece of strawman whitewash, but that's not how the flag is actually used in practice, and anyone who has spent time in the rural South is very well aware of that.

(Perhaps if the presenter in the video didn't grate on my nerves like Annoying Orange, I'd give his words and flawed research a little more weight. Sadly, he just comes off as Edgelord McTryhard.)

Here is an alternative take on the flag, courtesy PBS (You know, the Ken Burns channel): http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/8-t ... rate-flag/

Citing what the flag DIDN'T represent in the 20s is meaningless to people living in the current day, where the flag stands for intolerance, pigheadedness, and "Status Quo Ante Bellum."

[Pope Joan]

It is merely a heritage of bigotry and oppression, nothing more.

[Farnhamia]

Its the flag of a traitorous region and people that had horrific plans in mind should they had won.

But is it some rednecks right to fly it? sure, gives me a warning of what breed of dumbass im dealing with.

*** Warned for trolling. ***

[Rusozak]

The flag is a heritage of hate. The south cannot deny what their confederate ancestors stood for, and what many who still fly it still stand for.

[Ethoniaa]

Okay, having had to suffer through eleven years of living in rural Virgina, after spending nearly my whole childhood up in the Northwest, I can say beyond any shadow of a doubt that that bloody flag is a badge and license for intolerance and pseudo-1860 mentality, and has nothing to do with "heritage." Yeah, the video is a nice piece of strawman whitewash, but that's not how the flag is actually used in practice, and anyone who has spent time in the rural South is very well aware of that.

(Perhaps if the presenter in the video didn't grate on my nerves like Annoying Orange, I'd give his words and flawed research a little more weight. Sadly, he just comes off as Edgelord McTryhard.)

Here is an alternative take on the flag, courtesy PBS (You know, the Ken Burns channel): http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/8-t ... rate-flag/

Citing what the flag DIDN'T represent in the 20s is meaningless to people living in the current day, where the flag stands for intolerance, pigheadedness, and "Status Quo Ante Bellum."

I have spent my entire life in the South, the only time I ever heard of the flag being tied to anything racist came from the news about somebody up north being offended about the flag.
I had always been viewed as a piece of history. It varies from person to person, I mean you say that the flag was supported by racists, but yet the people of the north were no less racist then that of the Confederacy. The difference was that Northerners were against slavery. Slavery not tied to just a single race, slavery period...

[Wisconsin9]

To some its a heritage of hate and slavery, and to others its state rights and because their ancestor fought under it.

For me its the latter, but I don't fly it. I don't either is wrong and y'all need to acknowledge that.

No we don't.