The Christian Discussion Thread VI

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Infidels, Muhummud is the REAL prophet! Accept Allah

A bit off-topic.

Said poster is probably not Muslim, and definitely not Islamist. They forgot the "peace be upon him" after Muhammod. A true Islamist would never forget that.

[Constantinopolis]

Couldn't Ethiopia be put up there as well?

Yes, but after Armenia.

Traditionally, Ethiopia - more accurately Axum - converted to Christianity under King Ezana, who was converted by Saint Frumentius at some point after 328 AD but before 356 AD.

The 4th century was extraordinary. In less than a hundred years, Christianity went from being a relatively popular but still persecuted and maligned "cult", to being the official state religion across an entire continent-sized landmass, stretching from Gibraltar to the Caucasus mountains, and from Hadrian's Wall to the source of the Blue Nile.

We really should call this "the miracle of the fourth century".

And that was also the century when the Creed was composed, when the dogma of the Holy Trinity was explicitly defined, when the New Testament canon was finalized and universally accepted, when Christians agreed on a single method to calculate the date of Easter (Pascha), and when monasticism spread beyond Egypt to become a global Christian movement. And the liturgies used by all the ancient Churches today trace their origins to the 4th century.

Other than the time of Christ and the Apostles themselves, the 4th century was the most formative period in the history of the Church.

[The Chen Dynasty]

What's the difference between a Muslim and Islamist?

[Constantinopolis]

What's the difference between a Muslim and Islamist?

About the same as the different between a Christian and a Crusader.

[Diopolis]

Infidels, Muhummud is the REAL prophet! Accept Allah

Considering Allah is just the Arabic word for God, we most definitely do.
Also you appear to have mispelled Muhammed.

[The Archregimancy]

Alright, I'll put people out of their misery. Answers in red bold - wiki links also added.

Here's a potential Orthodox version, with only two questions held over (though both edited):

1.) Who was the founder of monasticism?
St Anthony the Great

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_the_Great

Astonishingly, the monastery founded near his hermitage shortly after his death in the mid-fourth is still active - and is therefore the oldest Christian monastery, active or otherwise.

2.) What was the Confession of Cyril Lucaris about?
The Confession was a controversial - and ultimately doomed - attempt by an early 17th-century Patriarch of Jerusalem to reconcile Orthodox and Calvinism. It was subsequently rejected at the 1672 Synod of Jerusalem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_Lucaris#Calvinism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synod_of_Jerusalem_(1672)

3.) Who were the Cappadocian Fathers?
St. Basil the Great
Basil's brother St. Gregory of Nyssa
Their friend St. Gregory of Nazianzus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basil_of_Caesarea
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_of_Nyssa
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_of_Nazianzus

Their influence on Trinitarian doctrine and Christology is central to modern Christianity.

Basil and Gregory [of Nyssa] had quite the family. Quite apart from the two brothers, their elder sister Macrina is herself an important saint, while a third brother was also a bishop who attended the Second Ecumenical Council in his own right, and yet another brother was an important Christian legal scholar who abandoned his legal career to become a hermit.


4.) Who was St. Gregory Palamas?
An important 14th-century saint whose defence of Hesychasm (see below) and opposition to the double procession of the Holy Spirit mark him as one of the more significant and distinctively Orthodox theologians since the Great Schism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_Palamas

Anyone seeking to understand some of the core differences of thinking - rather than just differences of doctrine - between Catholicism and Orthodoxy would benefit from understanding Palamite theology.


5.) Name 5 autocephalous churches other than the original members of the Pentarchy.
The full list of autocephalous churches whose canonicity is recognised by the entirety of the Church (Original Pentarchy with *):
Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople*
Patriarchate of Alexandria*
Patriarchate of Antioch*
Patriarchate of Jerusalem*
Patriarchate of Moscow
Patriarchate of Serbia
Patriarchate of Romania
Patriarchate of Bulgaria
Patriarchate of Georgia
Church of Cyprus
Church of Greece
Church of Poland
Church of Albania
Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia

To which are sometimes added the Orthodox Church in America (fully canonical, but not universally recognised as autocephalous) and the Church of Sinai (a historical anomaly dating back to Justinian I consisting solely of the Monastery of St. Catherine)

6.) What is "Hesychasm"?
An important prayer tradition in the Orthodox Church associated with silence and stillness, and particularly associated with monastics and the Jesus Prayer.

Impossible for me to adequately describe in a paragraph; here's the Wiki article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychasm

7.) What heresy was denounced by the Seventh Ecumenical Council?
Iconoclasm

8.) What is a yurodivy?
The Russian name for a type of saint known as a 'Fool for Christ'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foolishne ... ristianity

While Foolishness for Christ is an accepted form of asceticism across Orthodoxy, it became particularly associated with the Russian tradition.

9.) What is the purpose of a Prayer Rope (κομποσκοίνι or чётки)?
It's traditionally used by Orthodox monastics to keep count of the number of recitations of the Jesus Prayer, as traditionally first developed by St Anthony the Great's contemporary St Pachomius.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_rope
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pachomius_the_Great

It can, however, be used by laypeople. I regret not buying one when I was on Mount Athos last year (most of the monasteries have discreet gift shops)


10.) When was the term "Catholic" first used and by whom?
In the first two decades of the second century, by St. Ignatius of Antioch, in one of his epistles (as discussed in other recent posts in the thread)

[The Chen Dynasty]

What's the difference between a Muslim and Islamist?

About the same as the different between a Christian and a Crusader.

Oh I see, didn't know Islamist meant THAT

[Luminesa]

Alright, I'll put people out of their misery. Answers in red bold - wiki links also added.

Here's a potential Orthodox version, with only two questions held over (though both edited):

1.) Who was the founder of monasticism?
St Anthony the Great

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_the_Great

Astonishingly, the monastery founded near his hermitage shortly after his death in the mid-fourth is still active - and is therefore the oldest Christian monastery, active or otherwise.

2.) What was the Confession of Cyril Lucaris about?
The Confession was a controversial - and ultimately doomed - attempt by an early 17th-century Patriarch of Jerusalem to reconcile Orthodox and Calvinism. It was subsequently rejected at the 1672 Synod of Jerusalem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_Lucaris#Calvinism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synod_of_Jerusalem_(1672)

3.) Who were the Cappadocian Fathers?
St. Basil the Great
Basil's brother St. Gregory of Nyssa
Their friend St. Gregory of Nazianzus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basil_of_Caesarea
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_of_Nyssa
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_of_Nazianzus

Their influence on Trinitarian doctrine and Christology is central to modern Christianity.

Basil and Gregory [of Nyssa] had quite the family. Quite apart from the two brothers, their elder sister Macrina is herself an important saint, while a third brother was also a bishop who attended the Second Ecumenical Council in his own right, and yet another brother was an important Christian legal scholar who abandoned his legal career to become a hermit.


4.) Who was St. Gregory Palamas?
An important 14th-century saint whose defence of Hesychasm (see below) and opposition to the double procession of the Holy Spirit mark him as one of the more significant and distinctively Orthodox theologians since the Great Schism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_Palamas

Anyone seeking to understand some of the core differences of thinking - rather than just differences of doctrine - between Catholicism and Orthodoxy would benefit from understanding Palamite theology.


5.) Name 5 autocephalous churches other than the original members of the Pentarchy.
The full list of autocephalous churches whose canonicity is recognised by the entirety of the Church (Original Pentarchy with *):
Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople*
Patriarchate of Alexandria*
Patriarchate of Antioch*
Patriarchate of Jerusalem*
Patriarchate of Moscow
Patriarchate of Serbia
Patriarchate of Romania
Patriarchate of Bulgaria
Patriarchate of Georgia
Church of Cyprus
Church of Greece
Church of Poland
Church of Albania
Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia

To which are sometimes added the Orthodox Church in America (fully canonical, but not universally recognised as autocephalous) and the Church of Sinai (a historical anomaly dating back to Justinian I consisting solely of the Monastery of St. Catherine)

6.) What is "Hesychasm"?
An important prayer tradition in the Orthodox Church associated with silence and stillness, and particularly associated with monastics and the Jesus Prayer.

Impossible for me to adequately describe in a paragraph; here's the Wiki article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychasm

7.) What heresy was denounced by the Seventh Ecumenical Council?
Iconoclasm

8.) What is a yurodivy?
The Russian name for a type of saint known as a 'Fool for Christ'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foolishne ... ristianity

While Foolishness for Christ is an accepted form of asceticism across Orthodoxy, it became particularly associated with the Russian tradition.

9.) What is the purpose of a Prayer Rope (κομποσκοίνι or чётки)?
It's traditionally used by Orthodox monastics to keep count of the number of recitations of the Jesus Prayer, as traditionally first developed by St Anthony the Great's contemporary St Pachomius.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_rope
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pachomius_the_Great

It can, however, be used by laypeople. I regret not buying one when I was on Mount Athos last year (most of the monasteries have discreet gift shops)


10.) When was the term "Catholic" first used and by whom?
In the first two decades of the second century, by St. Ignatius of Antioch, in one of his epistles (as discussed in other recent posts in the thread)

I got 4 right! Yay!

[Tarsonis Survivors]

What's the difference between a Muslim and Islamist?

About the same as the different between a Christian and a Crusader.

Not at all. Crucades were largely wars of defense. An Islamist wishes to subjugate the whole world to Islam, by force if necessary .

[Tarsonis Survivors]

A bit off-topic.

Said poster is probably not Muslim, and definitely not Islamist. They forgot the "peace be upon him" after Muhammod. A true Islamist would never forget that.

Infidels, Muhummud is the REAL prophet! Accept Allah

Considering Allah is just the Arabic word for God, we most definitely do.
Also you appear to have mispelled Muhammed.

[Constantinopolis]

Here's a potential Orthodox version, with only two questions held over (though both edited):

1.) Who was the founder of monasticism?

2.) What was the Confession of Cyril Lucaris about?

3.) Who were the Cappadocian Fathers?

4.) Who was St. Gregory Palamas?

5.) Name 5 autocephalous churches other than the original members of the Pentarchy.

6.) What is "Hesychasm"?

7.) What heresy was denounced by the Seventh Ecumenical Council?

8.) What is a yurodivy?

9.) What is the purpose of a Prayer Rope (κομποσκοίνι or чётки)?

10.) When was the term "Catholic" first used and by whom?

1.) St. Anthony the Great.

2.) I know this from you, Arch, because you brought it up in a previous CDT. Cyril Lucaris was a Patriarch of Alexandria, in the 17th century I believe, who developed close contacts with the Protestants in Western Europe (especially Calvinist Geneva) and attempted a rapprochement between them and the Orthodox Church. His "confession" is a document printed in Geneva, attributed to Cyril Lucaris (although it may well have been edited to a greater or lesser extent by the printers themselves, or even forged entirely by them), in which the Patriarch is adopting shockingly Calvinist positions on a multitude of topics. This document was later officially rejected by the Orthodox Church and declared a heretical forgery (at the Synod of Jerusalem in 1672, I believe), although it's likely that Cyril Lucaris actually agreed with it at least to some extent.

3.) St. Basil the Great, St. Gregory of Nazianzus, and St. Gregory of Nyssa. They were immensely important Christian theologians of the 4th century, from the region of Cappadocia in Asia Minor (modern-day Turkey), who defended the Holy Trinity in a time when Arianism was dominant, and shaped the theology of the Orthodox Church in particular and to a lesser extent Christianity in general. They were at least as important as their contemporary St. Augustine in the history of Christianity, if not more so.

4.) An Orthodox monk and bishop from the 14th century, from northern Greece (I think he was from Thessaloniki, but I'm not sure), who played an enormously important role in defining modern Orthodox theology, particularly the concept of theosis and the practice of hesychasm. One of the Sundays during Great Lent is dedicated to him.

5.) That's easy. The Moscow Patriarchate, the Patriarchate of Georgia, the Patriarchate of Serbia, the Patriarchate of Bulgaria, the Patriarchate of Romania... and that's five right there.

6.) Hesychasm is also known as the "prayer of the heart" and it is a type of practice particularly widespread among Orthodox monastics. It is somewhat similar to meditation, I think, but I don't really know anything about it beyond what I just said.

7.) Iconoclasm.

8.) I don't know that term.

9.) To help with deep prayer. The rope has a number of knots, and the idea is to hold it in your hand and touch one knot after the other, saying a prayer on each knot. Typically, the same prayer is said on each knot, and most often that is the Jesus Prayer. The point of using a prayer rope is to keep track of how many times you have said the prayer without needing to count in your head or to look down on any piece of paper. When you reach the end of the rope, you stop.

10.) I don't know. Well, I didn't know, until you mentioned it in this thread. You said it was first used by St. Ignatius of Antioch in the early 2nd century.

* * * * *

Edit: ...and after I posted, I saw you already gave the answers, above, while I was writing. Thanks!

[The Wolven League]

About the same as the different between a Christian and a Crusader.

Not at all. Crucades were largely wars of defense. An Islamist wishes to subjugate the whole world to Islam, by force if necessary .

Don't tell me you support the atrocities that were the Crusades.

[Diopolis]

Not at all. Crucades were largely wars of defense. An Islamist wishes to subjugate the whole world to Islam, by force if necessary .

Don't tell me you support the atrocities that were the Crusades.

They were wars of defense that, like most wars at the time, got way out of hand.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Not at all. Crucades were largely wars of defense. An Islamist wishes to subjugate the whole world to Islam, by force if necessary .

Don't tell me you support the atrocities that were the Crusades.

One can acknowledge the true purpose of the Crusades without condoning the violence inherent.

[Constantinopolis]

The Crusades were "wars of defense" only if you define "defense" as meaning "let's attack the enemy at location X in order to stop his attacks against our allies at location Y."

By that broad interpretation of "defense", I'm sure Islamists could argue they are only "defending", too. In fact, almost any attack could be interpreted as a "defense" using similar logic, since apparently attacking them to prevent them from attacking us counts as defense.

The most charitable way to describe the Crusades is to call them a counter-attack. Calling them "defense" is ridiculous.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

The Crusades were "wars of defense" only if you define "defense" as meaning "let's attack the enemy at location X in order to stop his attacks against our allies at location Y."

By that broad interpretation of "defense", I'm sure Islamists could argue they are only "defending", too. In fact, almost any attack could be interpreted as a "defense" using similar logic, since apparently attacking them to prevent them from attacking us counts as defense.

Some one clearly hasn't been studying his Sun Tzup

[The Archregimancy]

Infidels, Muhummud is the REAL prophet! Accept Allah

What's the difference between a Muslim and Islamist?

I wouldn't usually use this particular thread to do this given my recent posts here, but this has been happening across multiple threads today, not just the CDT; and since the above example is the most egregious example of the individual in question using multiple accounts inappropriately, this will have to do as an overall reference point even though it's not ideal.

I also stress that I've discussed this with another (atheist) mod in IRC before taking this action.

The Chen Dynasty has twice today used Islamist troll accounts (Al-Hibala and Allahu Ackstan) to post inappropriately in multiple threads. He was specifically warned early today in the 'is Freedom of Religion Overrated' thread not to use puppet trolls to post views diametrically opposed to his own - but then started a second troll account (which I deleted after catching in the Jewish Discussion Thread) before coming into this thread just 20 minutes later with his main to pretend that he didn't know the difference between Muslims and Islamists.

Since he apparently can't control his behaviour, we've decided that he should lose all of the above nations. We are now discussing whether he has a future on this website.

[Coulee Croche]

It's a very Roman Catholic quiz, isn't it?


Here's a potential Orthodox version, with only two questions held over (though both edited):

1.) Who was the founder of monasticism?

2.) What was the Confession of Cyril Lucaris about?

3.) Who were the Cappadocian Fathers?

4.) Who was St. Gregory Palamas?

5.) Name 5 autocephalous churches other than the original members of the Pentarchy.

6.) What is "Hesychasm"?

7.) What heresy was denounced by the Seventh Ecumenical Council?

8.) What is a yurodivy?

9.) What is the purpose of a Prayer Rope (κομποσκοίνι or чётки)?

10.) When was the term "Catholic" first used and by whom?

1. St Anthony the Great
2. Dont know
3. Dont know
4. I believe he did work on apothatic theology?
5. Orthodox Church of Poland, Bulgaria, Romania, Greece, and Serbia(?)
6. Does it have to do with theosis?
7. Iconclasm
8. Dont Know
9. To open up the heart (i think) Ive heard some Orthodox talk about the inion of the heart or opening up the heart with praying i believe.
10. St Ignatius of Antioch 102 A.D. or sometime around then

[Constantinopolis]

The Crusades were "wars of defense" only if you define "defense" as meaning "let's attack the enemy at location X in order to stop his attacks against our allies at location Y."

By that broad interpretation of "defense", I'm sure Islamists could argue they are only "defending", too. In fact, almost any attack could be interpreted as a "defense" using similar logic, since apparently attacking them to prevent them from attacking us counts as defense.

Some one clearly hasn't been studying his Sun Tzu

The Crusaders were a loose coalition of forces with very different goals and ambitions, extremely prone to infighting. To bring up Sun Tzu is to imply that they were following some kind of master plan or grand strategy. They were not.

[Allied Skrall]

I suppose I have a question, how confident are you in your Christianity, and why?

9.95/10
Non-denominational Chalcedonian Christian (though I tend to loosely group myself with Protestantism), and have watched and read several apologetic stuff that eventually led me to classify myself as a Progressive Old-Earth Creationist.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Some one clearly hasn't been studying his Sun Tzu

The Crusaders were a loose coalition of forces with very different goals and ambitions, extremely prone to infighting. To bring up Sun Tzu is to imply that they were following some kind of master plan or grand strategy. They were not.

While true, there was an overall plan. Rebuff Islamic advancement. Then later this became centerslizsx around the Levant.

[Schiltzberg]

Yes, but after Armenia.

Traditionally, Ethiopia - more accurately Axum - converted to Christianity under King Ezana, who was converted by Saint Frumentius at some point after 328 AD but before 356 AD.

The 4th century was extraordinary. In less than a hundred years, Christianity went from being a relatively popular but still persecuted and maligned "cult", to being the official state religion across an entire continent-sized landmass, stretching from Gibraltar to the Caucasus mountains, and from Hadrian's Wall to the source of the Blue Nile.

We really should call this "the miracle of the fourth century".

And that was also the century when the Creed was composed, when the dogma of the Holy Trinity was explicitly defined, when the New Testament canon was finalized and universally accepted, when Christians agreed on a single method to calculate the date of Easter (Pascha), and when monasticism spread beyond Egypt to become a global Christian movement. And the liturgies used by all the ancient Churches today trace their origins to the 4th century.

Other than the time of Christ and the Apostles themselves, the 4th century was the most formative period in the history of the Church.

Yes, I always have found the 4th century fascinating as well. Emperor Constantine goes from persecuting Christians to making Christianity the national religion, which is a pretty huge leap, all because of a vision that he saw in the sky of a cross, I believe, before a battle that his army was seemingly destined to lose. The thing that I always see kind of funny ironic about Constantine is that he refused to convert to Christianity until he was on his deathbed, because he didn't want to follow Christianity's rules. XD He is still an enormously awesome character in the history of Christianity, though.

[The Archregimancy]

The Crusaders were a loose coalition of forces with very different goals and ambitions, extremely prone to infighting. To bring up Sun Tzu is to imply that they were following some kind of master plan or grand strategy. They were not.

While true, there was an overall plan. Rebuff Islamic advancement. Then later this became centerslizsx around the Levant.

Not really.

The initial plan was 'can you get me a few mercenaries to help stabilise the frontier in Anatolia', not 'can you call for a large-scale armed quest to set up fragile feudal states in Syria and Palestine?' The two are quite different things.

Might I recommend Steven Runciman's three-volume History of the Crusades? Judging from your posts on the subject so far, you might even learn something.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

While true, there was an overall plan. Rebuff Islamic advancement. Then later this became centerslizsx around the Levant.

Not really.

The initial plan was 'can you get me a few mercenaries to help stabilise the frontier in Anatolia', not 'can you call for a large-scale armed quest to set up fragile feudal states in Syria and Palestine?' The two are quite different things.

Might I recommend Steven Runciman's three-volume History of the Crusades? Judging from your posts on the subject so far, you might even learn something.

Back handed comments are back handed.

[Luminesa]

The 4th century was extraordinary. In less than a hundred years, Christianity went from being a relatively popular but still persecuted and maligned "cult", to being the official state religion across an entire continent-sized landmass, stretching from Gibraltar to the Caucasus mountains, and from Hadrian's Wall to the source of the Blue Nile.

We really should call this "the miracle of the fourth century".

And that was also the century when the Creed was composed, when the dogma of the Holy Trinity was explicitly defined, when the New Testament canon was finalized and universally accepted, when Christians agreed on a single method to calculate the date of Easter (Pascha), and when monasticism spread beyond Egypt to become a global Christian movement. And the liturgies used by all the ancient Churches today trace their origins to the 4th century.

Other than the time of Christ and the Apostles themselves, the 4th century was the most formative period in the history of the Church.

Yes, I always have found the 4th century fascinating as well. Emperor Constantine goes from persecuting Christians to making Christianity the national religion, which is a pretty huge leap, all because of a vision that he saw in the sky of a cross, I believe, before a battle that his army was seemingly destined to lose. The thing that I always see kind of funny ironic about Constantine is that he refused to convert to Christianity until he was on his deathbed, because he didn't want to follow Christianity's rules. XD He is still an enormously awesome character in the history of Christianity, though.

When did Constantine persecute Christians? I've never heard that before.