Israel/ Hamas / Gaza Mega-Thread II - You Gaza Be Kidding Me

[G-Tech Corporation]

Except that analogy doesn't work at all with the Israelis- who are they using to protect themselves from Hamas? Hamas is the one deliberately placing civilians in the line of fire; when Israel conducts operations into the Strip (which they do rarely, it should be noted), they don't exactly corral Palestinian civilians to march in front of their tanks. If Hamas engages said tanks from buildings full of civilians, we have the exact same police and hostage situation I delineated earlier- Hamas is to blame for their deaths.

Taking a tank and driving it out of the city changes absolutely nothing about that scenario- a tank shell fired from a hill or from the street destroys a building equally. The Israelis have no control over if Hamas chooses to fight from positions where civilians can be harmed. Hamas does.

do you think the soviets should be demonized for their brutal usage of human shields during the battle of stalingrad?

Absolutely. Making an argument that the Soviets weren't bastards is all but impossible; the only reason history is vaguely kind to them is because they won, and they were fighting, yknow, Nazis.

[Alyakia]

do you think the soviets should be demonized for their brutal usage of human shields during the battle of stalingrad?

Absolutely. Making an argument that the Soviets weren't bastards is all but impossible; the only reason history is vaguely kind to them is because they won, and they were fighting, yknow, Nazis.

do you think poland should be demonized for their brutal use of human shields during the siege of warsaw

in case it's not clear the point is that in order to defend a city you will at some point end up fighting inside said city and fighting inside said city does not mean you are using the inhabitants as human shields

[TomKirk]

Regardless, the region was under stable Palestinian control prior to the end of WW2, until the Jews began terrorizing, killing, and evicting Palestinians (ah right, it's only called terrorism if they're muslims, my bad /s). It should have been expected that the Palestinians would resist (who wouldn't?).

What, what, what??? No, the Palestinian Arabs have never been in control of any territory, ever. Under both Ottoman and British control the Muslim leadership launched campaigns of murder and dispossession against Jews and Christians which started longed before any Muslims had been "terrorized, killed, or evicted". The reason why a partition of the Palestine Mandate into separate Jewish and Arab states was proposed in the first place was because of this persistently murderous attitude, which continues to this day.

[TomKirk]

No more ridiculous than Britain not declaring war on the US since WWII.
Friendly fire suck, but it's a thing.

The Liberty was in international waters and, as an American vessel, was clearly marked as such - the Israelis confirmed it as an American vessel, and then attacked it anyways.

That is the opposite of truth. Israel asked America whether we had any vessels in the area, and LBJ flatly lied to them.

[DBJ]

Absolutely. Making an argument that the Soviets weren't bastards is all but impossible; the only reason history is vaguely kind to them is because they won, and they were fighting, yknow, Nazis.

do you think poland should be demonized for their brutal use of human shields during the siege of warsaw

in case it's not clear the point is that in order to defend a city you will at some point end up fighting inside said city and fighting inside said city does not mean you are using the inhabitants as human shields

So when Hamas stored rockets in UN schools, obviously there was no other place to store them.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Absolutely. Making an argument that the Soviets weren't bastards is all but impossible; the only reason history is vaguely kind to them is because they won, and they were fighting, yknow, Nazis.

do you think poland should be demonized for their brutal use of human shields during the siege of warsaw

in case it's not clear the point is that in order to defend a city you will at some point end up fighting inside said city and fighting inside said city does not mean you are using the inhabitants as human shields

Except, as I've already amply demonstrated, Hamas does not have to fight inside the city. It chooses, voluntarily, to launch rockets on its own timetable. It can choose effectively anywhere in the Strip as a combat zone, anywhere as a weapons store. It essentially determines where the Israelis will retaliate; this is not a case of "we're fighting them in our streets", this is a case of "we fire rockets when we feel like it".

And yet they choose launch rockets from urban areas, and store weapons in schools.

During the most recent conflict the Israelis even called their targets when striking in built up areas at Hamas Command and Control. Name me one military that goes to such pains to avoid civilian casualties that they tell their enemies where they are attacking aside from the IDF. Go ahead, I'll wait.

The fact is that Hamas uses civilian deaths for propaganda, and has no interest in protecting them. Their training calls for the use of civilians as human shields. The IDF, on the other hand, tries to prevent harm to the Palestinian population, even though said population would generally rather the IDF were all dead.

[Alyakia]

do you think poland should be demonized for their brutal use of human shields during the siege of warsaw

in case it's not clear the point is that in order to defend a city you will at some point end up fighting inside said city and fighting inside said city does not mean you are using the inhabitants as human shields

Except, as I've already amply demonstrated, Hamas does not have to fight inside the city. It chooses, voluntarily, to launch rockets on its own timetable. It can choose effectively anywhere in the Strip as a combat zone, anywhere as a weapons store. It essentially determines where the Israelis will retaliate; this is not a case of "we're fighting them in our streets", this is a case of "we fire rockets when we feel like it".

And yet they choose launch rockets from urban areas, and store weapons in schools.

During the most recent conflict the Israelis even called their targets when striking in built up areas at Hamas Command and Control. Name me one military that goes to such pains to avoid civilian casualties that they tell their enemies where they are attacking aside from the IDF. Go ahead, I'll wait.

The fact is that Hamas uses civilian deaths for propaganda, and has no interest in protecting them. Their training calls for the use of civilians as human shields. The IDF, on the other hand, tries to prevent harm to the Palestinian population, even though said population would generally rather the IDF were all dead.

i thought we had changed to talking about during actual invasions of gaza

russia does the exact same thing as the IDF but nobody gives a shit because when russia does it we see right through it

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 333982.stm

[G-Tech Corporation]

Except, as I've already amply demonstrated, Hamas does not have to fight inside the city. It chooses, voluntarily, to launch rockets on its own timetable. It can choose effectively anywhere in the Strip as a combat zone, anywhere as a weapons store. It essentially determines where the Israelis will retaliate; this is not a case of "we're fighting them in our streets", this is a case of "we fire rockets when we feel like it".

And yet they choose launch rockets from urban areas, and store weapons in schools.

During the most recent conflict the Israelis even called their targets when striking in built up areas at Hamas Command and Control. Name me one military that goes to such pains to avoid civilian casualties that they tell their enemies where they are attacking aside from the IDF. Go ahead, I'll wait.

The fact is that Hamas uses civilian deaths for propaganda, and has no interest in protecting them. Their training calls for the use of civilians as human shields. The IDF, on the other hand, tries to prevent harm to the Palestinian population, even though said population would generally rather the IDF were all dead.

i thought we had changed to talking about during actual invasions of gaza

russia does the exact same thing as the IDF but nobody gives a shit because when russia does it we see right through it

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 333982.stm

Sure, we can discuss that if you want. First, though, let's conclude the conversation about Hamas' choice of launch sites for rockets; are we agreed that the continued use of urban centers as launch sites, and the storage of munitions in schools and population centers, are both reprehensible actions that should be condemned? And that such continued actions represent a callous disregard for civilian life on behalf of Hamas?

[Alyakia]

actually you know what fuck it's been ages since i posted this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine

The Dahiya doctrine is a military strategy put forth by the Israeli general Gadi Eizenkot that pertains to asymmetric warfare in an urban setting, in which the army deliberately targets civilian infrastructure, as a means of inducing suffering for the civilian population, thereby establishing deterrence. The doctrine is named after a southern suburb in Beirut with large apartment buildings which were flattened by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) during the 2006 Lebanon War.

"This isn't a suggestion. It's a plan that has already been authorized."

Israel's highest-rating news programme, Channel Two News, has published a statement correcting false claims that rockets were fired from schools operated by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA) during the Gaza war in 2008-2009. The statement makes clear that Israeli officials themselves acknowledged that such claims were false and that there was no evidence to support them.

During Operation "Cast Lead" Israeli forces repeatedly took over Palestinian homes in the Gaza Strip forcing families to stay in a ground-floor room while they used the rest of their house as a military base and sniper position – effectively using the families, both adults and children, as “human shields” and putting them at risk.

While soldiers wore protective body armour and helmets and shielded themselves behind sandbags as they fired from the houses, the Palestinian inhabitants of the houses had no such protection.

For the vast majority of homes destroyed, more than 3,000, and damaged, some 20,000, during Operation “Cast Lead”, the Israeli army has provided no evidence to substantiate its allegations that the houses were used as combat positions, as military command centres or to manufacture or store weapons – or for any other purpose which, under certain circumstances, would have made it lawful to target them.

Many of the houses, factories and farms were bulldozed and many of the houses were destroyed with Israeli anti-tank mines, as evident from the remains of the mines that littered the destroyed neighbourhoods, and from the pattern of destruction resulting from this method. Although designed to be used against tanks, these mines can also be set off remotely. Israeli forces have often used them to destroy Palestinian houses in the West Bank and at times also in Gaza.

The fact that the soldiers used this method – which required them to leave their tanks, walk between buildings and enter houses in order to place the explosive charges inside the houses along the supporting walls – indicates that they felt extremely confident that there were no Palestinian gunmen inside or around the houses. It also indicates their confidence that there were no tunnels under the houses which gunmen could use to capture them, and that the houses were not booby-trapped. Had the soldiers believed that they were in danger of being shot, blown up or captured, they would not have ventured out of their tanks to place the mines inside the houses.

Clearly marked ambulances with flashing emergency lights and paramedics wearing recognizable fluorescent vests were repeatedly fired upon as they attempted to rescue the wounded and collect the dead. Such attacks intensified after Israeli ground forces took positions inside Gaza on 3 January 2009. Palestinian ambulance crews tried as best they could to reach as many of the wounded and the dead as possible. They and the international volunteers who accompanied some of the ambulance crews risked their lives every day to carry out their mission.

From 3 January, when the Israeli ground incursion began, until the end of Operation “Cast Lead”, dozens of Israeli tanks took position in various locations inside the Gaza Strip, mostly in the east and north of Gaza. Tanks can fire high-explosive munitions, notably 120mm deep-penetration projectiles and guided shells with extreme precision, including while on the move and at moving targets, from a distance up to 3km from the target.

From these positions inside Gaza Israeli tanks often fired into Palestinian houses up to 2km or more away, killing scores of unarmed civilians, many of them children and women. In all the cases investigated by Amnesty International, the victims were neither caught in the crossfire of battles between soldiers and militants, nor were they shielding militants.

Others who fled their homes were killed or injured when UN schools and other places where they had sought shelter came under Israeli attack.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/live-blog-idf-prepares-for-ground-invasion-as-gaza-offensive-enters-fourth-day-1.478505

7:55 P.M. Interior Minister Eli Yishai on Israel's operation in Gaza: "The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages. Only then will Israel be calm for forty years."

https://twitter.com/billneelyitv/status ... 0104691712

“We must blow Gaza back to the Middle Ages destroying all the infrastructure including roads & water”

"International Editor for ITV News."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/is ... s-1.434127

"Interior Minister says migrants do not recognize that Israel 'belongs to the white man.'"

Nowhere in the Gaza Strip is safe from Israel's "terrifying" bombardment, a New Zealander living in Gaza City says.

Speaking via Skype while military drones could be heard hovering over her house, activist and freelance journalist Julie Webb-Pullman, who has been living in Gaza since June last year, said it was an "absolutely terrifying" place to be.

"We are being rocked by bombs every 15 minutes ... I was just woken up at 6am by a massive explosion that apparently killed three people.

"The whole building rocked so it must have been about 500 yards from my house."

Webb-Pullman said the reality of the attacks was far from what was being reported.

"Nowhere in Gaza is safe, people are being killed just walking down the street and you have to go to the shop and you have to do things like that. "

Webb-Pullman said yesterday a group of people were targeted by an Israeli drone which killed a nine-year-old girl and her brother.

"They are not military targets, they are civilians. Israel is committing war crimes plain and simple."

Webb-Pullman said a 30:1 ratio of Gazans being killed to Israelis made it clear "who was the aggressor in the matter".

"Every time somebody is killed it enrages the population so much that anybody who was on the fence before then becomes extremely motivated to defend the blood of their dead."

4.2.2 ISRAELI ALLEGATIONS ABOUT USE OF “HUMAN SHIELDS”
The allegation that Hamas was using “human shields” was repeatedly made by Israeli government and army officials and spokespersons. In response to any questions about attacks by their own forces against Palestinian civilians or civilian objects or about the impact of their forces’ operations on the civilian population of Gaza, Israeli officials invariably responded that Hamas must be held responsible for any harm caused to civilians by Israeli attacks. Specifically, they accused Hamas of intentionally using the civilian population as “human shields” for their military activities by being based within towns and villages; storing rockets and other weapons in populated areas; firing rockets from close proximity to civilian buildings; and taking cover in civilian buildings after firing. Amnesty International asked the Israeli authorities on several occasions to provide information to substantiate its allegations about the use by Hamas of Gaza’s civilians, but has yet to receive a response.

Hamas, on the other hand, makes the argument that, as a political party, a social organization and an armed group, it is based among the population throughout Gaza. Militants affiliated to other armed groups do not dispute this and indeed make similar claims for themselves. They point out that any fighting which took place in Gaza was at the behest of Israeli forces which invaded Gaza, moving with tanks and troops into residential areas, occupying civilian homes and launching attacks from these homes. They maintain that the armed confrontations in or near residential areas were aimed at resisting Israeli ground attacks and deny any policy of endangering civilians or using civilians as cover.

The groups openly acknowledge that their fighters and military facilities are present in towns and villages in Gaza, but argue that their role is to defend their communities against Israeli attacks and invasions. They said that they have no choice as to where they operate from and point to frequent Israeli attacks against civilian homes and targets where there was no presence of fighters or weapons as evidence that Israeli forces do not distinguish between military and civilian targets.

Some of the armed groups deny having fired rockets from populated areas or having stored them there, while others argue that they were merely defending their communities and that Israeli forces targeted civilians not involved in military activities and locations from which no attacks had been launched.

Amnesty International, for its part, did not find evidence that Hamas or other Palestinian groups violated the laws of war to the extent repeatedly alleged by Israel. In particular, it found no evidence that Hamas or other fighters directed the movement of civilians to shield military objectives from attacks. By contrast, Amnesty International did find that Israeli forces on several occasions during Operation “Cast Lead” forced Palestinian civilians to serve as “human shields”. In any event, international humanitarian law makes clear that use of “human shields” by one party does not release the attacking party from its legal obligations with respect to civilians.

Amnesty International delegates interviewed many Palestinians who complained about Hamas’ conduct, and especially about Hamas’ repression and attacks against their opponents, including killings, torture and arbitrary detentions, but did not receive any accounts of Hamas fighters having used them as “human shields”.

In the cases investigated by Amnesty International of civilians killed in Israeli attacks, the deaths could not be explained as resulting from the presence of fighters shielding among civilians, as the Israel army generally contends. In all of the cases investigated by Amnesty International of families killed when their homes were bombed from the air by Israeli forces, for example, none of the houses struck was being used by armed groups for military activities. Similarly, in the cases of precision missiles or tank shells which killed civilians in their homes, no fighters were present in the houses that were struck and Amnesty International delegates found no indication that there had been any armed confrontations or other military activity in the immediate vicinity at the time of the attack.

you might be wondering "do i really need to read all this, and much more that has not been linked or posted, before i can even think of opening my mouth about the IDF or hamas?" and the answer is "yes".

e: oh yeah, and honorable mentions to IDF appeals human shield ban and IDF ties boy to jeep

[G-Tech Corporation]

Also, since you're complaining about hospital attacks and ambulance attacks;

http://emetnews.org/analysis/hamas-uses ... rposes.php

[Uxupox]

This thread always devolves on who is the shittiest mudslinger between Hamas or the Israeli defense force.

EDIT: As per suggestion.

[DBJ]

actually you know what fuck it's been ages since i posted this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine

The Dahiya doctrine is a military strategy put forth by the Israeli general Gadi Eizenkot that pertains to asymmetric warfare in an urban setting, in which the army deliberately targets civilian infrastructure, as a means of inducing suffering for the civilian population, thereby establishing deterrence. The doctrine is named after a southern suburb in Beirut with large apartment buildings which were flattened by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) during the 2006 Lebanon War.

"This isn't a suggestion. It's a plan that has already been authorized."

Israel's highest-rating news programme, Channel Two News, has published a statement correcting false claims that rockets were fired from schools operated by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA) during the Gaza war in 2008-2009. The statement makes clear that Israeli officials themselves acknowledged that such claims were false and that there was no evidence to support them.

During Operation "Cast Lead" Israeli forces repeatedly took over Palestinian homes in the Gaza Strip forcing families to stay in a ground-floor room while they used the rest of their house as a military base and sniper position – effectively using the families, both adults and children, as “human shields” and putting them at risk.

While soldiers wore protective body armour and helmets and shielded themselves behind sandbags as they fired from the houses, the Palestinian inhabitants of the houses had no such protection.

For the vast majority of homes destroyed, more than 3,000, and damaged, some 20,000, during Operation “Cast Lead”, the Israeli army has provided no evidence to substantiate its allegations that the houses were used as combat positions, as military command centres or to manufacture or store weapons – or for any other purpose which, under certain circumstances, would have made it lawful to target them.

Many of the houses, factories and farms were bulldozed and many of the houses were destroyed with Israeli anti-tank mines, as evident from the remains of the mines that littered the destroyed neighbourhoods, and from the pattern of destruction resulting from this method. Although designed to be used against tanks, these mines can also be set off remotely. Israeli forces have often used them to destroy Palestinian houses in the West Bank and at times also in Gaza.

The fact that the soldiers used this method – which required them to leave their tanks, walk between buildings and enter houses in order to place the explosive charges inside the houses along the supporting walls – indicates that they felt extremely confident that there were no Palestinian gunmen inside or around the houses. It also indicates their confidence that there were no tunnels under the houses which gunmen could use to capture them, and that the houses were not booby-trapped. Had the soldiers believed that they were in danger of being shot, blown up or captured, they would not have ventured out of their tanks to place the mines inside the houses.

Clearly marked ambulances with flashing emergency lights and paramedics wearing recognizable fluorescent vests were repeatedly fired upon as they attempted to rescue the wounded and collect the dead. Such attacks intensified after Israeli ground forces took positions inside Gaza on 3 January 2009. Palestinian ambulance crews tried as best they could to reach as many of the wounded and the dead as possible. They and the international volunteers who accompanied some of the ambulance crews risked their lives every day to carry out their mission.

From 3 January, when the Israeli ground incursion began, until the end of Operation “Cast Lead”, dozens of Israeli tanks took position in various locations inside the Gaza Strip, mostly in the east and north of Gaza. Tanks can fire high-explosive munitions, notably 120mm deep-penetration projectiles and guided shells with extreme precision, including while on the move and at moving targets, from a distance up to 3km from the target.

From these positions inside Gaza Israeli tanks often fired into Palestinian houses up to 2km or more away, killing scores of unarmed civilians, many of them children and women. In all the cases investigated by Amnesty International, the victims were neither caught in the crossfire of battles between soldiers and militants, nor were they shielding militants.

Others who fled their homes were killed or injured when UN schools and other places where they had sought shelter came under Israeli attack.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/live-blog-idf-prepares-for-ground-invasion-as-gaza-offensive-enters-fourth-day-1.478505

7:55 P.M. Interior Minister Eli Yishai on Israel's operation in Gaza: "The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages. Only then will Israel be calm for forty years."

https://twitter.com/billneelyitv/status ... 0104691712

“We must blow Gaza back to the Middle Ages destroying all the infrastructure including roads & water”

"International Editor for ITV News."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/is ... s-1.434127

"Interior Minister says migrants do not recognize that Israel 'belongs to the white man.'"

Nowhere in the Gaza Strip is safe from Israel's "terrifying" bombardment, a New Zealander living in Gaza City says.

Speaking via Skype while military drones could be heard hovering over her house, activist and freelance journalist Julie Webb-Pullman, who has been living in Gaza since June last year, said it was an "absolutely terrifying" place to be.

"We are being rocked by bombs every 15 minutes ... I was just woken up at 6am by a massive explosion that apparently killed three people.

"The whole building rocked so it must have been about 500 yards from my house."

Webb-Pullman said the reality of the attacks was far from what was being reported.

"Nowhere in Gaza is safe, people are being killed just walking down the street and you have to go to the shop and you have to do things like that. "

Webb-Pullman said yesterday a group of people were targeted by an Israeli drone which killed a nine-year-old girl and her brother.

"They are not military targets, they are civilians. Israel is committing war crimes plain and simple."

Webb-Pullman said a 30:1 ratio of Gazans being killed to Israelis made it clear "who was the aggressor in the matter".

"Every time somebody is killed it enrages the population so much that anybody who was on the fence before then becomes extremely motivated to defend the blood of their dead."

4.2.2 ISRAELI ALLEGATIONS ABOUT USE OF “HUMAN SHIELDS”
The allegation that Hamas was using “human shields” was repeatedly made by Israeli government and army officials and spokespersons. In response to any questions about attacks by their own forces against Palestinian civilians or civilian objects or about the impact of their forces’ operations on the civilian population of Gaza, Israeli officials invariably responded that Hamas must be held responsible for any harm caused to civilians by Israeli attacks. Specifically, they accused Hamas of intentionally using the civilian population as “human shields” for their military activities by being based within towns and villages; storing rockets and other weapons in populated areas; firing rockets from close proximity to civilian buildings; and taking cover in civilian buildings after firing. Amnesty International asked the Israeli authorities on several occasions to provide information to substantiate its allegations about the use by Hamas of Gaza’s civilians, but has yet to receive a response.

Hamas, on the other hand, makes the argument that, as a political party, a social organization and an armed group, it is based among the population throughout Gaza. Militants affiliated to other armed groups do not dispute this and indeed make similar claims for themselves. They point out that any fighting which took place in Gaza was at the behest of Israeli forces which invaded Gaza, moving with tanks and troops into residential areas, occupying civilian homes and launching attacks from these homes. They maintain that the armed confrontations in or near residential areas were aimed at resisting Israeli ground attacks and deny any policy of endangering civilians or using civilians as cover.

The groups openly acknowledge that their fighters and military facilities are present in towns and villages in Gaza, but argue that their role is to defend their communities against Israeli attacks and invasions. They said that they have no choice as to where they operate from and point to frequent Israeli attacks against civilian homes and targets where there was no presence of fighters or weapons as evidence that Israeli forces do not distinguish between military and civilian targets.

Some of the armed groups deny having fired rockets from populated areas or having stored them there, while others argue that they were merely defending their communities and that Israeli forces targeted civilians not involved in military activities and locations from which no attacks had been launched.

Amnesty International, for its part, did not find evidence that Hamas or other Palestinian groups violated the laws of war to the extent repeatedly alleged by Israel. In particular, it found no evidence that Hamas or other fighters directed the movement of civilians to shield military objectives from attacks. By contrast, Amnesty International did find that Israeli forces on several occasions during Operation “Cast Lead” forced Palestinian civilians to serve as “human shields”. In any event, international humanitarian law makes clear that use of “human shields” by one party does not release the attacking party from its legal obligations with respect to civilians.

Amnesty International delegates interviewed many Palestinians who complained about Hamas’ conduct, and especially about Hamas’ repression and attacks against their opponents, including killings, torture and arbitrary detentions, but did not receive any accounts of Hamas fighters having used them as “human shields”.

In the cases investigated by Amnesty International of civilians killed in Israeli attacks, the deaths could not be explained as resulting from the presence of fighters shielding among civilians, as the Israel army generally contends. In all of the cases investigated by Amnesty International of families killed when their homes were bombed from the air by Israeli forces, for example, none of the houses struck was being used by armed groups for military activities. Similarly, in the cases of precision missiles or tank shells which killed civilians in their homes, no fighters were present in the houses that were struck and Amnesty International delegates found no indication that there had been any armed confrontations or other military activity in the immediate vicinity at the time of the attack.

you might be wondering "do i really need to read all this, and much more that has not been linked or posted, before i can even think of opening my mouth about the IDF or hamas?" and the answer is "yes".

e: oh yeah, and honorable mentions to IDF appeals human shield ban and IDF ties boy to jeep

Hamas & co are intentionally using human shield by, amongst other things, storing rockets in schools. You just look like an idiot if you deny it.

[G-Tech Corporation]

This thread always devolves on who is the shittiest mudslinger between Hamas or the Israeli government.

To be fair, a more correct analysis would be "between Hamas and the IDF". The Israeli gov frequently reigns in their military, which focuses too much on not getting killed than legal niceties.

[Kubra]

We could say the same thing about how the Israeli's conduct their airstrikes (really fits your police man and hostage analogy), or their unwillingness to do as alyakia suggests and move tanks into city streets, mark targets, then go back and find a nice hill to fire from (a dumb idea imo)
Militaries and paramilitaries concern themselves (these days) primarily with survival as an organization, victory later. As such, they'll take the easiest path to survival. Can't nobody fault them for that.

Except that analogy doesn't work at all with the Israelis- who are they using to protect themselves from Hamas? Hamas is the one deliberately placing civilians in the line of fire; when Israel conducts operations into the Strip (which they do rarely, it should be noted), they don't exactly corral Palestinian civilians to march in front of their tanks. If Hamas engages said tanks from buildings full of civilians, we have the exact same police and hostage situation I delineated earlier- Hamas is to blame for their deaths.

Taking a tank and driving it out of the city changes absolutely nothing about that scenario- a tank shell fired from a hill or from the street destroys a building equally. The Israelis have no control over if Hamas chooses to fight from positions where civilians can be harmed. Hamas does.

Yeah, and the IDF is the one who shoots said shields. Didn't you say the cop who shoots the hostage is also at fault for such?
Dude, it changes everything. It puts the tank into a spot where it's most vulnerable then makes it delay its attacking of a target, which can in that delay relocate. It's a dumb as heck thing to do. It ain't worth noting that the IDF doesn't move into the strip any more, it's for very much military reasons.

Jeez, I've given you something you can work with: I've basically absolved the IDF of any moral faults in its conduct in the ongoing conflict on the grounds that it cannot do without it to some degree.

[Washington Resistance Army]

actually you know what fuck it's been ages since i posted this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine

The Dahiya doctrine is a military strategy put forth by the Israeli general Gadi Eizenkot that pertains to asymmetric warfare in an urban setting, in which the army deliberately targets civilian infrastructure, as a means of inducing suffering for the civilian population, thereby establishing deterrence. The doctrine is named after a southern suburb in Beirut with large apartment buildings which were flattened by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) during the 2006 Lebanon War.

"This isn't a suggestion. It's a plan that has already been authorized."

Israel's highest-rating news programme, Channel Two News, has published a statement correcting false claims that rockets were fired from schools operated by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA) during the Gaza war in 2008-2009. The statement makes clear that Israeli officials themselves acknowledged that such claims were false and that there was no evidence to support them.

During Operation "Cast Lead" Israeli forces repeatedly took over Palestinian homes in the Gaza Strip forcing families to stay in a ground-floor room while they used the rest of their house as a military base and sniper position – effectively using the families, both adults and children, as “human shields” and putting them at risk.

While soldiers wore protective body armour and helmets and shielded themselves behind sandbags as they fired from the houses, the Palestinian inhabitants of the houses had no such protection.

For the vast majority of homes destroyed, more than 3,000, and damaged, some 20,000, during Operation “Cast Lead”, the Israeli army has provided no evidence to substantiate its allegations that the houses were used as combat positions, as military command centres or to manufacture or store weapons – or for any other purpose which, under certain circumstances, would have made it lawful to target them.

Many of the houses, factories and farms were bulldozed and many of the houses were destroyed with Israeli anti-tank mines, as evident from the remains of the mines that littered the destroyed neighbourhoods, and from the pattern of destruction resulting from this method. Although designed to be used against tanks, these mines can also be set off remotely. Israeli forces have often used them to destroy Palestinian houses in the West Bank and at times also in Gaza.

The fact that the soldiers used this method – which required them to leave their tanks, walk between buildings and enter houses in order to place the explosive charges inside the houses along the supporting walls – indicates that they felt extremely confident that there were no Palestinian gunmen inside or around the houses. It also indicates their confidence that there were no tunnels under the houses which gunmen could use to capture them, and that the houses were not booby-trapped. Had the soldiers believed that they were in danger of being shot, blown up or captured, they would not have ventured out of their tanks to place the mines inside the houses.

Clearly marked ambulances with flashing emergency lights and paramedics wearing recognizable fluorescent vests were repeatedly fired upon as they attempted to rescue the wounded and collect the dead. Such attacks intensified after Israeli ground forces took positions inside Gaza on 3 January 2009. Palestinian ambulance crews tried as best they could to reach as many of the wounded and the dead as possible. They and the international volunteers who accompanied some of the ambulance crews risked their lives every day to carry out their mission.

From 3 January, when the Israeli ground incursion began, until the end of Operation “Cast Lead”, dozens of Israeli tanks took position in various locations inside the Gaza Strip, mostly in the east and north of Gaza. Tanks can fire high-explosive munitions, notably 120mm deep-penetration projectiles and guided shells with extreme precision, including while on the move and at moving targets, from a distance up to 3km from the target.

From these positions inside Gaza Israeli tanks often fired into Palestinian houses up to 2km or more away, killing scores of unarmed civilians, many of them children and women. In all the cases investigated by Amnesty International, the victims were neither caught in the crossfire of battles between soldiers and militants, nor were they shielding militants.

Others who fled their homes were killed or injured when UN schools and other places where they had sought shelter came under Israeli attack.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/live-blog-idf-prepares-for-ground-invasion-as-gaza-offensive-enters-fourth-day-1.478505

7:55 P.M. Interior Minister Eli Yishai on Israel's operation in Gaza: "The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages. Only then will Israel be calm for forty years."

https://twitter.com/billneelyitv/status ... 0104691712

“We must blow Gaza back to the Middle Ages destroying all the infrastructure including roads & water”

"International Editor for ITV News."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/is ... s-1.434127

"Interior Minister says migrants do not recognize that Israel 'belongs to the white man.'"

Nowhere in the Gaza Strip is safe from Israel's "terrifying" bombardment, a New Zealander living in Gaza City says.

Speaking via Skype while military drones could be heard hovering over her house, activist and freelance journalist Julie Webb-Pullman, who has been living in Gaza since June last year, said it was an "absolutely terrifying" place to be.

"We are being rocked by bombs every 15 minutes ... I was just woken up at 6am by a massive explosion that apparently killed three people.

"The whole building rocked so it must have been about 500 yards from my house."

Webb-Pullman said the reality of the attacks was far from what was being reported.

"Nowhere in Gaza is safe, people are being killed just walking down the street and you have to go to the shop and you have to do things like that. "

Webb-Pullman said yesterday a group of people were targeted by an Israeli drone which killed a nine-year-old girl and her brother.

"They are not military targets, they are civilians. Israel is committing war crimes plain and simple."

Webb-Pullman said a 30:1 ratio of Gazans being killed to Israelis made it clear "who was the aggressor in the matter".

"Every time somebody is killed it enrages the population so much that anybody who was on the fence before then becomes extremely motivated to defend the blood of their dead."

4.2.2 ISRAELI ALLEGATIONS ABOUT USE OF “HUMAN SHIELDS”
The allegation that Hamas was using “human shields” was repeatedly made by Israeli government and army officials and spokespersons. In response to any questions about attacks by their own forces against Palestinian civilians or civilian objects or about the impact of their forces’ operations on the civilian population of Gaza, Israeli officials invariably responded that Hamas must be held responsible for any harm caused to civilians by Israeli attacks. Specifically, they accused Hamas of intentionally using the civilian population as “human shields” for their military activities by being based within towns and villages; storing rockets and other weapons in populated areas; firing rockets from close proximity to civilian buildings; and taking cover in civilian buildings after firing. Amnesty International asked the Israeli authorities on several occasions to provide information to substantiate its allegations about the use by Hamas of Gaza’s civilians, but has yet to receive a response.

Hamas, on the other hand, makes the argument that, as a political party, a social organization and an armed group, it is based among the population throughout Gaza. Militants affiliated to other armed groups do not dispute this and indeed make similar claims for themselves. They point out that any fighting which took place in Gaza was at the behest of Israeli forces which invaded Gaza, moving with tanks and troops into residential areas, occupying civilian homes and launching attacks from these homes. They maintain that the armed confrontations in or near residential areas were aimed at resisting Israeli ground attacks and deny any policy of endangering civilians or using civilians as cover.

The groups openly acknowledge that their fighters and military facilities are present in towns and villages in Gaza, but argue that their role is to defend their communities against Israeli attacks and invasions. They said that they have no choice as to where they operate from and point to frequent Israeli attacks against civilian homes and targets where there was no presence of fighters or weapons as evidence that Israeli forces do not distinguish between military and civilian targets.

Some of the armed groups deny having fired rockets from populated areas or having stored them there, while others argue that they were merely defending their communities and that Israeli forces targeted civilians not involved in military activities and locations from which no attacks had been launched.

Amnesty International, for its part, did not find evidence that Hamas or other Palestinian groups violated the laws of war to the extent repeatedly alleged by Israel. In particular, it found no evidence that Hamas or other fighters directed the movement of civilians to shield military objectives from attacks. By contrast, Amnesty International did find that Israeli forces on several occasions during Operation “Cast Lead” forced Palestinian civilians to serve as “human shields”. In any event, international humanitarian law makes clear that use of “human shields” by one party does not release the attacking party from its legal obligations with respect to civilians.

Amnesty International delegates interviewed many Palestinians who complained about Hamas’ conduct, and especially about Hamas’ repression and attacks against their opponents, including killings, torture and arbitrary detentions, but did not receive any accounts of Hamas fighters having used them as “human shields”.

In the cases investigated by Amnesty International of civilians killed in Israeli attacks, the deaths could not be explained as resulting from the presence of fighters shielding among civilians, as the Israel army generally contends. In all of the cases investigated by Amnesty International of families killed when their homes were bombed from the air by Israeli forces, for example, none of the houses struck was being used by armed groups for military activities. Similarly, in the cases of precision missiles or tank shells which killed civilians in their homes, no fighters were present in the houses that were struck and Amnesty International delegates found no indication that there had been any armed confrontations or other military activity in the immediate vicinity at the time of the attack.

you might be wondering "do i really need to read all this, and much more that has not been linked or posted, before i can even think of opening my mouth about the IDF or hamas?" and the answer is "yes".

e: oh yeah, and honorable mentions to IDF appeals human shield ban and IDF ties boy to jeep

Hamas & co are intentionally using human shield by, amongst other things, storing rockets in schools. You just look like an idiot if you deny it.

Abandoned schools are just packed with human shields right?

[Alyakia]

actually you know what fuck it's been ages since i posted this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine

The Dahiya doctrine is a military strategy put forth by the Israeli general Gadi Eizenkot that pertains to asymmetric warfare in an urban setting, in which the army deliberately targets civilian infrastructure, as a means of inducing suffering for the civilian population, thereby establishing deterrence. The doctrine is named after a southern suburb in Beirut with large apartment buildings which were flattened by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) during the 2006 Lebanon War.

"This isn't a suggestion. It's a plan that has already been authorized."

Israel's highest-rating news programme, Channel Two News, has published a statement correcting false claims that rockets were fired from schools operated by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA) during the Gaza war in 2008-2009. The statement makes clear that Israeli officials themselves acknowledged that such claims were false and that there was no evidence to support them.

During Operation "Cast Lead" Israeli forces repeatedly took over Palestinian homes in the Gaza Strip forcing families to stay in a ground-floor room while they used the rest of their house as a military base and sniper position – effectively using the families, both adults and children, as “human shields” and putting them at risk.

While soldiers wore protective body armour and helmets and shielded themselves behind sandbags as they fired from the houses, the Palestinian inhabitants of the houses had no such protection.

For the vast majority of homes destroyed, more than 3,000, and damaged, some 20,000, during Operation “Cast Lead”, the Israeli army has provided no evidence to substantiate its allegations that the houses were used as combat positions, as military command centres or to manufacture or store weapons – or for any other purpose which, under certain circumstances, would have made it lawful to target them.

Many of the houses, factories and farms were bulldozed and many of the houses were destroyed with Israeli anti-tank mines, as evident from the remains of the mines that littered the destroyed neighbourhoods, and from the pattern of destruction resulting from this method. Although designed to be used against tanks, these mines can also be set off remotely. Israeli forces have often used them to destroy Palestinian houses in the West Bank and at times also in Gaza.

The fact that the soldiers used this method – which required them to leave their tanks, walk between buildings and enter houses in order to place the explosive charges inside the houses along the supporting walls – indicates that they felt extremely confident that there were no Palestinian gunmen inside or around the houses. It also indicates their confidence that there were no tunnels under the houses which gunmen could use to capture them, and that the houses were not booby-trapped. Had the soldiers believed that they were in danger of being shot, blown up or captured, they would not have ventured out of their tanks to place the mines inside the houses.

Clearly marked ambulances with flashing emergency lights and paramedics wearing recognizable fluorescent vests were repeatedly fired upon as they attempted to rescue the wounded and collect the dead. Such attacks intensified after Israeli ground forces took positions inside Gaza on 3 January 2009. Palestinian ambulance crews tried as best they could to reach as many of the wounded and the dead as possible. They and the international volunteers who accompanied some of the ambulance crews risked their lives every day to carry out their mission.

From 3 January, when the Israeli ground incursion began, until the end of Operation “Cast Lead”, dozens of Israeli tanks took position in various locations inside the Gaza Strip, mostly in the east and north of Gaza. Tanks can fire high-explosive munitions, notably 120mm deep-penetration projectiles and guided shells with extreme precision, including while on the move and at moving targets, from a distance up to 3km from the target.

From these positions inside Gaza Israeli tanks often fired into Palestinian houses up to 2km or more away, killing scores of unarmed civilians, many of them children and women. In all the cases investigated by Amnesty International, the victims were neither caught in the crossfire of battles between soldiers and militants, nor were they shielding militants.

Others who fled their homes were killed or injured when UN schools and other places where they had sought shelter came under Israeli attack.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/live-blog-idf-prepares-for-ground-invasion-as-gaza-offensive-enters-fourth-day-1.478505

7:55 P.M. Interior Minister Eli Yishai on Israel's operation in Gaza: "The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages. Only then will Israel be calm for forty years."

https://twitter.com/billneelyitv/status ... 0104691712

“We must blow Gaza back to the Middle Ages destroying all the infrastructure including roads & water”

"International Editor for ITV News."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/is ... s-1.434127

"Interior Minister says migrants do not recognize that Israel 'belongs to the white man.'"

Nowhere in the Gaza Strip is safe from Israel's "terrifying" bombardment, a New Zealander living in Gaza City says.

Speaking via Skype while military drones could be heard hovering over her house, activist and freelance journalist Julie Webb-Pullman, who has been living in Gaza since June last year, said it was an "absolutely terrifying" place to be.

"We are being rocked by bombs every 15 minutes ... I was just woken up at 6am by a massive explosion that apparently killed three people.

"The whole building rocked so it must have been about 500 yards from my house."

Webb-Pullman said the reality of the attacks was far from what was being reported.

"Nowhere in Gaza is safe, people are being killed just walking down the street and you have to go to the shop and you have to do things like that. "

Webb-Pullman said yesterday a group of people were targeted by an Israeli drone which killed a nine-year-old girl and her brother.

"They are not military targets, they are civilians. Israel is committing war crimes plain and simple."

Webb-Pullman said a 30:1 ratio of Gazans being killed to Israelis made it clear "who was the aggressor in the matter".

"Every time somebody is killed it enrages the population so much that anybody who was on the fence before then becomes extremely motivated to defend the blood of their dead."

4.2.2 ISRAELI ALLEGATIONS ABOUT USE OF “HUMAN SHIELDS”
The allegation that Hamas was using “human shields” was repeatedly made by Israeli government and army officials and spokespersons. In response to any questions about attacks by their own forces against Palestinian civilians or civilian objects or about the impact of their forces’ operations on the civilian population of Gaza, Israeli officials invariably responded that Hamas must be held responsible for any harm caused to civilians by Israeli attacks. Specifically, they accused Hamas of intentionally using the civilian population as “human shields” for their military activities by being based within towns and villages; storing rockets and other weapons in populated areas; firing rockets from close proximity to civilian buildings; and taking cover in civilian buildings after firing. Amnesty International asked the Israeli authorities on several occasions to provide information to substantiate its allegations about the use by Hamas of Gaza’s civilians, but has yet to receive a response.

Hamas, on the other hand, makes the argument that, as a political party, a social organization and an armed group, it is based among the population throughout Gaza. Militants affiliated to other armed groups do not dispute this and indeed make similar claims for themselves. They point out that any fighting which took place in Gaza was at the behest of Israeli forces which invaded Gaza, moving with tanks and troops into residential areas, occupying civilian homes and launching attacks from these homes. They maintain that the armed confrontations in or near residential areas were aimed at resisting Israeli ground attacks and deny any policy of endangering civilians or using civilians as cover.

The groups openly acknowledge that their fighters and military facilities are present in towns and villages in Gaza, but argue that their role is to defend their communities against Israeli attacks and invasions. They said that they have no choice as to where they operate from and point to frequent Israeli attacks against civilian homes and targets where there was no presence of fighters or weapons as evidence that Israeli forces do not distinguish between military and civilian targets.

Some of the armed groups deny having fired rockets from populated areas or having stored them there, while others argue that they were merely defending their communities and that Israeli forces targeted civilians not involved in military activities and locations from which no attacks had been launched.

Amnesty International, for its part, did not find evidence that Hamas or other Palestinian groups violated the laws of war to the extent repeatedly alleged by Israel. In particular, it found no evidence that Hamas or other fighters directed the movement of civilians to shield military objectives from attacks. By contrast, Amnesty International did find that Israeli forces on several occasions during Operation “Cast Lead” forced Palestinian civilians to serve as “human shields”. In any event, international humanitarian law makes clear that use of “human shields” by one party does not release the attacking party from its legal obligations with respect to civilians.

Amnesty International delegates interviewed many Palestinians who complained about Hamas’ conduct, and especially about Hamas’ repression and attacks against their opponents, including killings, torture and arbitrary detentions, but did not receive any accounts of Hamas fighters having used them as “human shields”.

In the cases investigated by Amnesty International of civilians killed in Israeli attacks, the deaths could not be explained as resulting from the presence of fighters shielding among civilians, as the Israel army generally contends. In all of the cases investigated by Amnesty International of families killed when their homes were bombed from the air by Israeli forces, for example, none of the houses struck was being used by armed groups for military activities. Similarly, in the cases of precision missiles or tank shells which killed civilians in their homes, no fighters were present in the houses that were struck and Amnesty International delegates found no indication that there had been any armed confrontations or other military activity in the immediate vicinity at the time of the attack.

you might be wondering "do i really need to read all this, and much more that has not been linked or posted, before i can even think of opening my mouth about the IDF or hamas?" and the answer is "yes".

e: oh yeah, and honorable mentions to IDF appeals human shield ban and IDF ties boy to jeep

Hamas & co are intentionally using human shield by, amongst other things, storing rockets in schools. You just look like an idiot if you deny it.

if they want human shields why don't they, you know, use schools with actual people in them?

i expected not actually reading the whole thing and a cherry picking one sentence with a one line response, but even those expectations have been exceed.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Except that analogy doesn't work at all with the Israelis- who are they using to protect themselves from Hamas? Hamas is the one deliberately placing civilians in the line of fire; when Israel conducts operations into the Strip (which they do rarely, it should be noted), they don't exactly corral Palestinian civilians to march in front of their tanks. If Hamas engages said tanks from buildings full of civilians, we have the exact same police and hostage situation I delineated earlier- Hamas is to blame for their deaths.

Taking a tank and driving it out of the city changes absolutely nothing about that scenario- a tank shell fired from a hill or from the street destroys a building equally. The Israelis have no control over if Hamas chooses to fight from positions where civilians can be harmed. Hamas does.

Yeah, and the IDF is the one who shoots said shields. Didn't you say the cop who shoots the hostage is also at fault for such?
Dude, it changes everything. It puts the tank into a spot where it's most vulnerable then makes it delay its attacking of a target, which can in that delay relocate. It's a dumb as heck thing to do. It ain't worth noting that the IDF doesn't move into the strip any more, it's for very much military reasons.

Jeez, I've given you something you can work with: I've basically absolved the IDF of any moral faults in its conduct in the ongoing conflict on the grounds that it cannot do without it to some degree.

No no, legally, the exact opposite is true. The hostage taker is at fault, not the cop.

That's not the point? The point is that, regardless of when or where the tank fired from, high explosive shells have a tendency to cause casualties. They're still hitting the same target regardless, so it doesn't matter, and thus the IDF doesn't fire from hills outside the city. Either way, if there are innocents in the target, they will be at risk.

Frankly, I'm not sure what you're arguing. That if the IDF fires from farther away they risk less civilians?

[Uxupox]

Hamas & co are intentionally using human shield by, amongst other things, storing rockets in schools. You just look like an idiot if you deny it.

Abandoned schools are just packed with human shields right?

Those weren't abandoned schools the UN itself stated that "the UNRWA Gaza Beach Elementary Co-educational “B” School, on 16 July 2014, the UN Board of Inquiry notes that the school gate was unlocked during the period leading up to the incident “in order to allow children access to the schoolyard". Take note that this school was active in its curriculum and was being used by Hamas.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Hamas & co are intentionally using human shield by, amongst other things, storing rockets in schools. You just look like an idiot if you deny it.

if they want human shields why don't they, you know, use schools with actual people in them?

i expected not actually reading the whole thing and a cherry picking one sentence with a one line response, but even those expectations have been exceed.

Because even Palestinians don't consent to being herded somewhere they will die, duh. The best Hamas can do to ensure propaganda is fire from somewhere they're reasonably confident will cause casualties when the Israelis retaliate.

[Alyakia]

if they want human shields why don't they, you know, use schools with actual people in them?

i expected not actually reading the whole thing and a cherry picking one sentence with a one line response, but even those expectations have been exceed.

Because even Palestinians don't consent to being herded somewhere they will die, duh. The best Hamas can do to ensure propaganda is fire from somewhere they're reasonably confident will cause casualties when the Israelis retaliate.

but israeli propaganda says that hamas literally forces civilians into areas that are going to be bombed? which is it?

[G-Tech Corporation]

Because even Palestinians don't consent to being herded somewhere they will die, duh. The best Hamas can do to ensure propaganda is fire from somewhere they're reasonably confident will cause casualties when the Israelis retaliate.

but israeli propaganda says that hamas literally forces civilians into areas that are going to be bombed? which is it?

*citation needed*

Which reminds me:

i thought we had changed to talking about during actual invasions of gaza

russia does the exact same thing as the IDF but nobody gives a shit because when russia does it we see right through it

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 333982.stm

Sure, we can discuss that if you want. First, though, let's conclude the conversation about Hamas' choice of launch sites for rockets; are we agreed that the continued use of urban centers as launch sites, and the storage of munitions in schools and population centers, are both reprehensible actions that should be condemned? And that such continued actions represent a callous disregard for civilian life on behalf of Hamas?

[G-Tech Corporation]

Because even Palestinians don't consent to being herded somewhere they will die, duh. The best Hamas can do to ensure propaganda is fire from somewhere they're reasonably confident will cause casualties when the Israelis retaliate.

but israeli propaganda says that hamas literally forces civilians into areas that are going to be bombed? which is it?

Also, Israeli propaganda shows Hamas leader calling for civilians to put themselves in the way of bombings.

[DBJ]

Hamas & co are intentionally using human shield by, amongst other things, storing rockets in schools. You just look like an idiot if you deny it.

Abandoned schools are just packed with human shields right?

That's why there were so many dead and wounded, right? Because the schools were abandoned.

The Board was informed that the school gate was unlocked during the period
leading up to the incident in order to allow children access to the schoolyard. It was also
informed that there were two sets of keys to the classrooms, one for the morning shift and
the other for the afternoon. One set of keys was kept in the school principal's office. It
was unclear where the other set was kept.

[Kubra]

Yeah, and the IDF is the one who shoots said shields. Didn't you say the cop who shoots the hostage is also at fault for such?
Dude, it changes everything. It puts the tank into a spot where it's most vulnerable then makes it delay its attacking of a target, which can in that delay relocate. It's a dumb as heck thing to do. It ain't worth noting that the IDF doesn't move into the strip any more, it's for very much military reasons.

Jeez, I've given you something you can work with: I've basically absolved the IDF of any moral faults in its conduct in the ongoing conflict on the grounds that it cannot do without it to some degree.

No no, legally, the exact opposite is true. The hostage taker is at fault, not the cop.

That's not the point? The point is that, regardless of when or where the tank fired from, high explosive shells have a tendency to cause casualties. They're still hitting the same target regardless, so it doesn't matter, and thus the IDF doesn't fire from hills outside the city. Either way, if there are innocents in the target, they will be at risk.

Frankly, I'm not sure what you're arguing. That if the IDF fires from farther away they risk less civilians?

Oh, you're right, this was the result of a misreading on my part. Let me approach this from a different angle: you say that the death of hostages falls on the criminal who takes the hostages, yes? Do you consider there to be exceptional circumstances in which the reverse is true, or for which fault lies with the policeman?

Except one scenario may result in the tank actually blowing up, rather than hitting any targets. Hamas might be silly out there with their little Qassam rockets, but anyone's pretty dangerous from 5 or less metres away. The IDF post its tanks on strategic vantage points outside civilian areas, it's done so since Lebanon. Apart from the Merkava's ability to carry troops it's the only way to make tanks useful these days.

Heck no, if it fires from father away it risks itself less. What I'm arguing is that if Israel can be absolved of its conduct (for which there are many examples of shady conduct) it is a double standard to not do the same for the conduct of Hamas.
It's totally cool to criticize their politics tho

[DBJ]

Hamas & co are intentionally using human shield by, amongst other things, storing rockets in schools. You just look like an idiot if you deny it.

if they want human shields why don't they, you know, use schools with actual people in them?

i expected not actually reading the whole thing and a cherry picking one sentence with a one line response, but even those expectations have been exceed.

So why do you think they choose schools to store their rockets in? Go ahead, explain. It's quite obvious why choose schools. It's a great propaganda victory to them if the IDF has to bomb a school, even better when a few children die.