[TWI ONLY] The Senate of the Western Isles

[Doppler]

I think it is nessercary to have a vouch cap, if a senator could stir something up like that it would be great.

[Verdon]

I think clauses 4, 5, and 6 are acceptable as is.

I don't really understand the point of clause 3, it adds an unnecessary complication. What was the intent there?

[The Pacific Peace Union]

If we do put in place a vouch cap I think 6 is a good number. That way the senator is allowed to have a backup voucher in case someone changed their vouch.

[Vancouvia]

I think clauses 4, 5, and 6 are acceptable as is.

I don't really understand the point of clause 3, it adds an unnecessary complication. What was the intent there?

#3 is a rider that shouldn't be in this

[The Pacific Peace Union]

I think a revised version is now would be reasonable

[Dashgrinaar]

Final Revised Version - With Speaker Por Tempore edits:

Second Constitutional Amendment Act

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An Act to Clarify the Position of the Senate in the Constitution and Region

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Speaker Pro Tempore

(1) Adds Section 12 to Article IV, stating:

"Section 12: The Speaker Pro Tempore (SPT)
The Speaker Pro Tempore will serve as the Speaker of the Senate in the absence of the Vice President
- The SPT will have the authority to excersize the Vice President's power in his capacity as Speaker of the Senate
- The SPT will serve as a liaison between members of the region and the Senate
- The SPT will be elected by Senators out of the existing Senate members at the expiration of a term
- The election for SPT will be held at the expiration of a term, whose length will be determined by the Senate
- If the SPT is no longer a senator, they will still retain the position until the expiration of the term"

(2) Repeals "Senator Pro Tempore Act, 2015"

[Vancouvia]

Typo in 5 and "If the SPT loses vouchers to where the number of them is under five," should be change to "If the SPT is no longer a Senator..."

Use "they" instead of "he/she"

Delete 6, it's irrelevant and we don't want people's names in the Constitution

[The Pacific Peace Union]

Vancouvia, I think when Dash said "if the SPT loses vouchers to where the number of them is under five" He means that the SPT will remain a senator even if he looses the needed vouch number since they would be a elected office. So I feel removing this and replacing it with "If the SPT is no longer a Senator" Would not work in this bill.

[Vancouvia]

Vancouvia, I think when Dash said "if the SPT loses vouchers to where the number of them is under five" He means that the SPT will remain a senator even if he looses the needed vouch number since they would be a elected office. So I feel removing this and replacing it with "If the SPT is no longer a Senator" Would not work in this bill.

There's no reason for the SPT to be elected democratically. The system we have now where it's selected by the actual Senators is fine. This overcomplicates things for no reason

[The Pacific Peace Union]

I know, I was just saying that edit would go against the bills purpose I feel, so we would need to find a different way to work it out. Dash you are tying to make the Speaker Pro Tempore a more permanent position correct?

[Vancouvia]

Okay here's why I'm against this whole thing

-If it ain't broke, don't fix it. This adds a lot of nothing to the Constitution and then officializes a position that doesn't need officalizing.
-The Formatting and Procedures Act already exists, so why does this needs to be officialized in the Constitution.
-Why move the election of the SPT to the region when the region is already electing the Senators
-Term limits for the SPT? Term limits of any kind in my opinion are a poor choice
-Why have a SPT in the first place when 1. Our Vice President should be active in the Senate since it's a major part of their job and 2. The SPT position isn't needed since the Senate isn't really following a standard procedure since Tuernia's absence.

What I think should be done:

-Remove the position of the SPT altogether since it isn't necessary
-Repeal and replace the Formatting and Procedures Act with something simpler and more accessible. First and second reading time periods are impracticable and not followed.

[Dashgrinaar]

Vancouvia, I agree with you on how the Formatting and Procedure act creates a long and complicated procedure, and it should be changed. However, I will have to disagree with you on the matter of the SPT.

Firstly, I would like to address the "term limit" idea. From my interpretation as I wrote it, there are not term limits, just terms. "Expiration" means end in this instance.

The position of the SPT in the capacity of being the Speaker in the Vice President's absence means that SPT would be able to continue the docket, moderate discussion, or move forward in the process of passing or striking down a bill when the Vice President is not on.

I will concede to the point of the region (not) electing the SPT, it makes sense.

Finally, the SPT would serve as a bridge between the Senate and members of the region, making the Senate more accessible to members and the Senate more accessible and open to the region as a whole.

To address PPU's comment stating that "Vancouvia, I think when Dash said "if the SPT loses vouchers to where the number of them is under five" He means that the SPT will remain a senator even if he looses the needed vouch number since they would be a elected office. So I feel removing this and replacing it with "If the SPT is no longer a Senator" Would not work in this bill." :

PPU, the SPT would lose their powers as a senator if their number dipped below five - that would be unfair to Senators, and makes it seems as if the position is offering a "permanent" membership in the Senate, which goes against the voucher system.

[Verdon]

Okay, for real the only thing that's integral is this:

"(1) Article IV, Sections 6 and 7 are repealed."

Without this, the Formatting and Procedures Act as it stand is unconstitutional, as it overrides the legislative process described in the constitution.

[Dashgrinaar]

Sorry Verdon, overlooked removing that when I removed the other clauses.

[Dashgrinaar]

As there seems to be no extra debate on the subject, I move to vote.

Our agenda would be as this stands:

-Action on 2nd Constitutional Amendment-
-Action on Anything in the 2CA-
-Make a new Procedure to Replace F&P-
-Make Decision on Speech Policy-

Anything wrong with this agenda?

[Doppler]

If the SPT were to loose vouches and no longer become a senator the VP would just take over temporarily.

[Dashgrinaar]

If the SPT were to loose vouches and no longer become a senator the VP would just take over temporarily.(?)

The SPT would continue to carry out the actions of the Speaker (minus tie breaking) but not get to vote.

[Nights Edge]

Forgive me if I misread anything, but I don't think that SPT necessarily belongs in the constitution.... it would be more at home in the F&P act, which may or may not be undergoing a change soon. If it is, that would be an ideal place for SPT, as that is part of how the Senate is run, not necessarily what it is, as the Constitution is meant for

[Dashgrinaar]

Forgive me if I misread anything, but I don't think that SPT necessarily belongs in the constitution.... it would be more at home in the F&P act, which may or may not be undergoing a change soon. If it is, that would be an ideal place for SPT, as that is part of how the Senate is run, not necessarily what it is, as the Constitution is meant for

How so? I see where you are coming from in how the Senate is run, but we are establishing it as a official position, not one existing only for the Senate. The position exists to serve and will affect the entire region, and thus will be in the constitution.

[Nights Edge]

Forgive me if I misread anything, but I don't think that SPT necessarily belongs in the constitution.... it would be more at home in the F&P act, which may or may not be undergoing a change soon. If it is, that would be an ideal place for SPT, as that is part of how the Senate is run, not necessarily what it is, as the Constitution is meant for

How so? I see where you are coming from in how the Senate is run, but we are establishing it as a official position, not one existing only for the Senate. The position exists to serve and will affect the entire region, and thus will be in the constitution.

I don't feel as if SPT really would have or need the ability to affect the whole region though. Its sole goal should to take over the VPs job in the Senate if he is unavailable. Nothing region changing, so I don't feel as if it's necessary to create a new amendment.

Just my two cents here, take it as you will

[Dashgrinaar]

Basically, the SPT will serve as the Senate's face in the region, if you so chose to think. They would be a bridge, a liaison if you may, between the Senate and the region as a whole.

[Verdon]

The SPT does seems like a strictly secretarial position. As representatives of the people who vouched for us, we should all be liaisons to the region so I don't see why only the SPT would solely fill that role. Since the SPT doesn't really see an increase in legislative power (and is only active when the vice president is absent), I would argue that "as the deputy of the Vice President" (SPTA), the Vice President should just select the SPT out of the active senators.

So I am going to side with dash - that this belongs in an amendment - but I would suggest the following changes;

1. remove the last three bullets, as they add an unnecessary complication

2. replace with:
-The SPT will be selected by the Vice President out of the existing Senate members
-The SPT will retain the position as long as they are an active senator

3. (1) Adds to Article II, Section 4:
-Selects the Speaker Pro Tempore out of the existing senate members.

[Dashgrinaar]

I like what Verdon has presented, and will change this.

Final Copy:

Second Constitutional Amendment Act

---

An Act to Clarify the Position of the Senate in the Constitution and Region

---

Speaker Pro Tempore

(1) Adds Section 12 to Article IV, stating:

"Section 12: The Speaker Pro Tempore (SPT)
The Speaker Pro Tempore will serve as the Speaker of the Senate in the absence of the Vice President
- The SPT will have the authority to excersize the Vice President's power in his capacity as Speaker of the Senate
- The SPT will serve as a liaison between members of the region and the Senate
-The SPT will be selected by the Vice President out of the existing Senate members
-The SPT will retain the position as long as they are an active senator

(2) Repeals "Senator Pro Tempore Act, 2015"

(3) Adds to Article II, Section 4:
-Selects the Speaker Pro Tempore out of the existing senate members.

I move to vote.

[Verdon]

I'll second the move to vote

[Dashgrinaar]

With two seconds, the motion passes. The voting period begins now.

I vote AYE.